US/Canada Trade War ?

[logger]

That’s not quite what the dispute is over. US producers think Canadian stumpage fees should be forced to be the same as what they have to pay in the US. Canada has more forest and less population so supply is higher, demand is lower which in a free market means stumpage fees need to be lower in Canada otherwise they would remain unsold.

Basically this is US producers trying skew the market and drive up prices to homebuyers by keeping this land unutilized and reducing the amount of lumber on the market.

That certainly is one way of looking at it. Seems a tariff is a perfect way of leveling the playing field. That is if we want to keep our sawmills. We could go the way of steel, remember how we let China have our steel mills. Seems Trump isn't interested in making a few sawmill owners in other countries rich.

 

[Spindrift]

That certainly is one way of looking at it. Seems a tariff is a perfect way of leveling the playing field. That is if we want to keep our sawmills. We could go the way of steel, remember how we let China have our steel mills. Seems Trump isn't interested in making a few sawmill owners in other countries rich.

Level the playing field? Why should the government interfere in the free market?

 

[logger]

So are they going to go after american beef and the lower fees for grazing on federal lands?

Unlikely. It's only bad when the 'wrong people' do it. Wrong people means, other countries, brown people, 'leftists' (whatever a leftist is).

if the 'right' is doing it, there will never be any complaints. If 'leftists' (whatever a leftist is) were grazing cattle on federal land for reduced costs, the right would be up in arms, and frothing at the mouth over it.

Lordy!
This is about our country fellas. Trump said he was going to care for our country, isn't that what a president is supposed to do? This is just hilarious, proves the left doesn't give a rip about the working class and guess what, they know it!

He supposed to somehow take care of other countries because they're brown? ******* hilarious!
Don't yellow people count? Or are you just another racist?

 

[logger]

Level the playing field? Why should the government interfere in the free market?

Because that is what they're good at. I haven't been a proponent of free trade for a long time. It's made a few rich men richer. Your first clue would be the example given. Canada has lots of timber. Like China has lots of labor. How come you don't understand such simple things?

 

[blutoski]

Yes it is that cut and dry. The stumpage price is by far the largest portion.

And the difference is significant, last information I read.
Something like $4 in BC versus $11 in WA, median average. (there are different fees for different types of lumber projects, this is the median average)

25% tariff on the $530 finished product - adding $133 - far exceeds the $7 difference in stumpage fee, so this is not really designed to address the alleged subsidy. Which we could have guessed from the conveniently rounded number and lack of discretion from province to province (each of which has a different stumpage fee schedule).

It's punitive protectionism, which is a bad precedent to set because Canada might retaliate. We import 4x as much lumber from the USA than they do from us, which puts the USA as the biggest potential loser in a tit for tat trade war for this industry category.

 

[Belz...]

That certainly is one way of looking at it. Seems a tariff is a perfect way of leveling the playing field. That is if we want to keep our sawmills. We could go the way of steel, remember how we let China have our steel mills. Seems Trump isn't interested in making a few sawmill owners in other countries rich.

Leveling the playing field? I thought you guys were against government interfering in the free market? Answer:

Because that is what they're good at. I haven't been a proponent of free trade for a long time.

So you're on the far-left, then.

 

[logger]

Leveling the playing field? I thought you guys were against government interfering in the free market? Answer:



So you're on the far-left, then.

You and other leftists always think conservatives are for pure free market. We aren't anarchists, funny they're leftists too.

Laws are created to have a level playing field, which fits well with small government, not the bloated BS your side votes for. So the left can get more goodies.

 

[logger]

And the difference is significant, last information I read.
Something like $4 in BC versus $11 in WA, median average. (there are different fees for different types of lumber projects, this is the median average)

25% tariff on the $530 finished product - adding $133 - far exceeds the $7 difference in stumpage fee, so this is not really designed to address the alleged subsidy. Which we could have guessed from the conveniently rounded number and lack of discretion from province to province (each of which has a different stumpage fee schedule).

Really. Washington states stumpage is more than twice what Canadas is and 15 to 24% is too much?

It's punitive protectionism, which is a bad precedent to set because Canada might retaliate. We import 4x as much lumber from the USA than they do from us, which puts the USA as the biggest potential loser in a tit for tat trade war for this industry category.

Isn't that because Canada needs a certain kind of lumber? If all they needed was Lodgpole, they'd be fine.

 

[blutoski]

Really. Washington states stumpage is more than twice what Canadas is and 15 to 24% is too much?

Arguably, yes, because it contributes just slightly over 1% of the final wholesale cost that suppliers would be paying.

This is why previous complaints about this being 'a subsidy' have failed NAFTA arbitration. There's no evidence that it impacts the final price enough to qualify as dumping, and secondly, the stumpage fee schedule is set by local supply and demand, it's not really directed at exports.

Isn't that because Canada needs a certain kind of lumber? If all they needed was Lodgpole, they'd be fine.

Not sure what you mean by that. Countries need many kinds of softwood. It's not just for construction. Everything from furniture to pharmaceuticals.

 

[Belz...]

You and other leftists always think conservatives are for pure free market.

Wait a second! Are you saying that things are... more nuanced than just left-right, black-and-white thinking?

We aren't anarchists, funny they're leftists too.

No they're not. Holy hell, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Laws are created to have a level playing field, which fits well with small government, not the bloated BS your side votes for.

It's not my "side". You're the only one between you and me who thinks in terms of "sides" here.

 

[Tony Stark]

Both anarchists and fascists are leftists according to logger.

lol

 

[theprestige]

Both anarchists and fascists are leftists according to logger.

lol

Both anarchists and fascists are revolutionary progressives, so it kinda makes sense.

 

[Shalamar]

Both anarchists and fascists are revolutionary progressives, so it kinda makes sense.

Not always. Logger is a Fascist, what with his desire for a one party conservative state in the US.

 

[quadraginta]

[/b]What more does Trump think the U.S. has to gain in a trade war? They already got Wayne Gretzky, Celian Dion and Justin Bieber.

Not to mention Tommy Chong.

 

[uke2se]

Fascists are progressives now?

 

[Belz...]

Fascists are progressives now?

It's amazing what you can do with words, these days.

 

[Porkpie Hat]

You should go somewhere else, but you won't, because you can't.

That's an ignorant statement since we've already been down this road before and new trade deals have been recently signed which show how wrong you are.

What I find interesting is there's people within my social circles who are already vowing to reduce the amount of American made products they purchase. People who are cancelling trips to the US and either spending their vacation dollars here at home or travelling to Europe instead.

Reading comments in the following article seem to support my contention that Canadian's won't give the almighty US a free pass on their choice of a bully in chief and that when it comes down to brass tax, trump really is a horrible negotiator who cuts off his own nose to spite the American's who really on our trade for their living.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trade-softwood-dairy-japan-europe-china-mexico-1.4085031

Also noteworthy is it seems other countries are viewing this in a similar light.

 

[lomiller]

That certainly is one way of looking at it. Seems a tariff is a perfect way of leveling the playing field. That is if we want to keep our sawmills. We could go the way of steel, remember how we let China have our steel mills. Seems Trump isn't interested in making a few sawmill owners in other countries rich.

Why do you hate free markets? What’s the point in “keeping sawmills” or “keeping steel mills” if the only way to do so is government imposed inefficiencies on the marketplace?

 

[logger]

Why do you hate free markets? What’s the point in “keeping sawmills” or “keeping steel mills” if the only way to do so is government imposed inefficiencies on the marketplace?

Because other countries can always do it cheaper. They don't seem to have so many liberals. Plus many have dictators (same as a liberal) which makes products even cheaper with slave labor. Is paying someone a decent wage one of those inefficiencies you're talking about?

And I don't hate free markets when other countries are competing fairly.

 

[logger]

That's an ignorant statement since we've already been down this road before and new trade deals have been recently signed which show how wrong you are.

What I find interesting is there's people within my social circles who are already vowing to reduce the amount of American made products they purchase. People who are cancelling trips to the US and either spending their vacation dollars here at home or travelling to Europe instead.

Reading comments in the following article seem to support my contention that Canadian's won't give the almighty US a free pass on their choice of a bully in chief and that when it comes down to brass tax, trump really is a horrible negotiator who cuts off his own nose to spite the American's who really on our trade for their living.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trade-softwood-dairy-japan-europe-china-mexico-1.4085031

Also noteworthy is it seems other countries are viewing this in a similar light.

Yeah sure, that will make a Huge dent. My point is when money is involved the market will dictate where people go.