Understanding the Conservative Mindset

[ponderingturtle]

Some people can be rehabilitated and some can't. In my opinion, in the UK at least, in my opinion, white collar criminals are often presumed to be too likely to be rehabilitated. Many white collar criminals steal far more, and had far more options to honestly get money.

Then of course there is one of the best kinds of white collar crime that isn't even a crime, wage theft.

 

[jt512]

the USA seems determined to make actual crime statistics impossible hard to get!

In other words, you haven’t even tried. You just think they must be hard to get…cuz Trump or something.

It took me 10 seconds to find this: https://www.usa.gov/crime-statistics

 

[d4m10n]

Or took me 10 seconds to find this: https://www.usa.gov/crime-statistics

Pretty confident that website won't say anything about the "conservative mindset" directly, but see if you can use that site to tell us anything about how crime is treated differently in red states than blue ones.

 

[steenkh]

In other words, you haven’t even tried. You just think they must be hard to get…cuz Trump or something.

Or took me 10 seconds to find this: https://www.usa.gov/crime-statistics

Do I remember correctly that Trump (who is not the subject of this thread) fired the director for making honest statistics that didn't reflect the wishes of the president?

 

[Darat]

In other words, you haven’t even tried. You just think they must be hard to get…cuz Trump or something.

It took me 10 seconds to find this: https://www.usa.gov/crime-statistics

What is the percentage of state white collar crime convictions in New York v California?

 

[jt512]

What is the percentage of state white collar crime convictions in New York v California?

What are they for Greater London vs. West Midlands?

 

[Trausti]

Then of course there is one of the best kinds of white collar crime that isn't even a crime, wage theft.

That's not correct. Perhaps all the states have laws and high penalties if an employer tries to cheat an employee. The feds will come down hard if the employer fails to pay social security or other payroll taxes.

 

[rdwight]

that’s you saying you didn’t look into it and making a guess as to what it’s about. presumably because you don’t care enough to do so. and i’ve even provided several sources explaining it since then.

in any case i don’t think it’s a stupid point, particularly as it relates to the conservative mindset.

And glancing over your source quotes I feel my opinion has held up. If a politician runs on a platform of something it would hold more weight. Saying any misdeed or pardon by a politician shows the voters agree with it is bonkers to me.

Its like me saying liberals dont care about due process or rehabilitation (obama), corruption (menendez), enriching while in office (pelosi), rape/sa (clinton), etc etc. We can call it a data point to add to the mix but I wouldn't base my opinions or put much weight into it.

Some people can be rehabilitated and some can't. In my opinion, in the UK at least, in my opinion, white collar criminals are often presumed to be too likely to be rehabilitated. Many white collar criminals steal far more, and had far more options to honestly get money.

As for as rehabilitation is concerned, the UK family-run company, Timpsons, is notable for employing former prisoners (amongst various other social initiatives). It seems to be quite successful, so many criminals can be rehabilitated.

I dont think rehabilitation is is unworkable idea. Its just not an attractive option with repeat offenders and certain types of criminals. My empathy falls on the general public more than the criminals.

Then of course there is one of the best kinds of white collar crime that isn't even a crime, wage theft.

Ill have to start a thread on this if there isnt one already to see how deep this zombie lie is embedded. To be clear its not that wage theft doesnt happen, but its impact and scale is exaggerated to an unbelievable degree.

 

[dirtywick]

And glancing over your source quotes I feel my opinion has held up. If a politician runs on a platform of something it would hold more weight. Saying any misdeed or pardon by a politician shows the voters agree with it is bonkers to me.

Its like me saying liberals dont care about due process or rehabilitation (obama), corruption (menendez), enriching while in office (pelosi), rape/sa (clinton), etc etc. We can call it a data point to add to the mix but I wouldn't base my opinions or put much weight into it.

so you're now fairly aware of the situation and don't put much weight to it. thanks, that's all i was asking for.

anyway, i don't think any misdeed or pardon shows the voters agree with it. i think the tolerance to this particular kind of open corruption and undeniable criminal conduct of the president is pretty reflective of the voter base, it's not a single data point but a large pattern of conduct. so i think it's a lot different than the things you named

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Its like me saying liberals dont care about due process or rehabilitation (obama), corruption (menendez), enriching while in office (pelosi), rape/sa (clinton), etc etc. We can call it a data point to add to the mix but I wouldn't base my opinions or put much weight into it.

Some liberals don't care, but a lot do. For example, in 2017 Al Franken was forced to resign after accusations of 'inappropriate touching' during photo ops. That's pretty minor compared to rape. However a poll by Politico found that 66% of democrats thought the ethics panel should probe his conduct, and 49% thought he should resign - along with 56% of Republicans and 44% of independents. Democrats cared about as much as non-democrats did.

In Bill Clinton's case 65% of democrats, 69% of republicans and 63% of independents though the allegations of sexual misconduct aginst him were 'credible', again showing that democrats cared about as much as non-democrats did.

In Donald Trump's case however, while a similar proportion of democrats (64%) found the allegations credible, only 37% of republicans did. That is (as the pollster remarked) a 'stark contrast'. 63% of republicans refused to admit that Trump could have commited sexual assult depite him being caught on tape bragging that "when you're a star they let you do it". Since then the allegations have only gotten more credible, but what have we heard from conservatives? Crickets. There is no indication that he lost any support from them over it.

From this we can only conclude that the majority of conservatives don't care about sexual assult when one of their own is involved, whereas the majority of liberals do care. As to why this is, one just has to remember that the phrase "my county, right or wrong" (coined by radical Republican Carl Schurz in 1816) also applies to political parties. Conservatives continue to strongly support Trump despite behavior that goes against their 'family values'. Turns out that 'tough on crime' doesn't apply when they are commiting the crimes.

Looking at 'enriching while in office' we see a similar pattern. AFAICT Nancy Pelosi hasn't done anything untoward in relation to her husband's investments (mosty in real-estate). Despite that, a poll in 2023 found that 70% of democrats (along with 78% of republicans) thought members of Congress should not be able to trade stocks while serving in office. This poll was taken shortly after a report revealed that 78 members of Congress, including many Democrats, had recently violated the STOCK Act.

But the Pelosi family's gains were nothing compared to the amount Trump has enriched himself over the last 1-1/2 years. What does the public think of that? A recent CNN poll found that 91% of democrats thought he has gone too far, while a mere 29% of republicans thought so. So much for non-partisan support for banning stock trades by lawmakers! Apparently most conservatives don't think it should apply to Trump. I wonder why?

 

[rdwight]

so you're now fairly aware of the situation and don't put much weight to it. thanks, that's all i was asking for.

anyway, i don't think any misdeed or pardon shows the voters agree with it. i think the tolerance to this particular kind of open corruption and undeniable criminal conduct of the president is pretty reflective of the voter base, it's not a single data point but a large pattern of conduct. so i think it's a lot different than the things you named

What constitutes tolerance in your mind? Obama was reelected after the al-Awlaki killings. Menendez was reeelected after being charged. Clinton was releected after the Jones lawsuit. Members of Congress continue to be sworn in while making returns no one believes are on the up and up.

 

[dirtywick]

it occurs to me that trump done something extremely similar and but worse and more extreme version of all of those events you listed. and then he's bringing the white nationalism into it too, it's just like dang you can pick all the worst scandals of the last 50 years and he's done all of them. what he is doing is so extreme that i don't think there's a comparison to be made

 

[Cain]

I dunno. I'd say that conservatives have in common is the acceptance of human nature as it is rather than as we might want it to be. And policy should be based on reality not imagined utopia.

In international relations, "realism" is often associated with a conservative outlook, particularly classical realism. On that view, it would have been "utopian" for France and Germany to ever forge a lasting, peaceful alliance. Today it's almost impossible to see them going to war with each other. Scandinavian-style "gentle justice" would seem impossible, yet it works.

Harvey Mansfield says liberals care more about equality and inclusion, whereas conservatives are more likely to valorize hierarchy and achievement. I've long speculated that this is why they despise Hollywood. If De Niro did the empty chair-talking routine that Eastwood pulled, we never would have heard the end of it. During Cornyn's race, somebody mentioned that he posted a picture of himself reading one of the ghostwritten Trump books. I was asked how Republicans can be such ferocious bullies when it comes to Democrats, but total cucks when it comes to Orangutan Jesus. I think it's because of the conservative mindset. Mansfield says conservatives are more inclined toward admiration. Hero worship. Leftists can be committed haters, but I know who we'll always hate more than conservatives: other lefties. Or pretend lefties.

 

[rdwight]

Some liberals don't care, but a lot do. For example, in 2017 Al Franken was forced to resign after accusations of 'inappropriate touching' during photo ops. That's pretty minor compared to rape. However a poll by Politico found that 66% of democrats thought the ethics panel should probe his conduct, and 49% thought he should resign - along with 56% of Republicans and 44% of independents. Democrats cared about as much as non-democrats did.

And he shouldn't have resigned. In hindsight, do you think he should have?

In Bill Clinton's case 65% of democrats, 69% of republicans and 63% of independents though the allegations of sexual misconduct aginst him were 'credible', again showing that democrats cared about as much as non-democrats did.

And yet he captured 84% of the Democrat vote for reelection in 96, same as his 92 campaign.

In Donald Trump's case however, while a similar proportion of democrats (64%) found the allegations credible, only 37% of republicans did. That is (as the pollster remarked) a 'stark contrast'. 63% of republicans refused to admit that Trump could have commited sexual assult depite him being caught on tape bragging that "when you're a star they let you do it". Since then the allegations have only gotten more credible, but what have we heard from conservatives? Crickets. There is no indication that he lost any support from them over it.

Call it a cult of personality on their part, or a cop out for me to point this out, but if 63% dont believe he did it then why would their vote be affected by it? It measures something but not sure if it translates to the conclusion dirtywick is pointing at.

From this we can only conclude that the majority of conservatives don't care about sexual assult when one of their own is involved, whereas the majority of liberals do care. As to why this is, one just has to remember that the phrase "my county, right or wrong" (coined by radical Republican Carl Schurz in 1816) also applies to political parties. Conservatives continue to strongly support Trump despite behavior that goes against their 'family values'. Turns out that 'tough on crime' doesn't apply when they are commiting the crimes.

Don't fully disagree, although i dont think this line of action is partisan. I disagree in how this translates to public views in general.

Looking at 'enriching while in office' we see a similar pattern. AFAICT Nancy Pelosi hasn't done anything untoward in relation to her husband's investments (mosty in real-estate). Despite that, a poll in 2023 found that 70% of democrats (along with 78% of republicans) thought members of Congress should not be able to trade stocks while serving in office. This poll was taken shortly after a report revealed that 78 members of Congress, including many Democrats, had recently violated the STOCK Act.

But the Pelosi family's gains were nothing compared to the amount Trump has enriched himself over the last 1-1/2 years. What does the public think of that? A recent CNN poll found that 91% of democrats thought he has gone too far, while a mere 29% of republicans thought so. So much for non-partisan support for banning stock trades by lawmakers! Apparently most conservatives don't think it should apply to Trump. I wonder why?

Yes, her husband's. Much like trumps family, not trump. No one believes these are seperated. I only use Pelosi since shes known, but obviously it is a large issue on both sides.

In regards to your poll, im not sure what that tells us. The question was "Do you think Donald Trump (has gone too far), has been about right, or (has not gone far enough) when it comes to pursuing his personal business interests while serving as president?"

Not really as specific. This poll by PPI goes more specific to crypto dealings.

Democratic support is higher, but these majorities extend across party lines. Among
Republicans, 80% back the transaction-reporting requirement, 81% support giving law
enforcement investigative tools, and nearly two-thirds (67%) favor barring federal
officials from promoting, issuing, or profiting from crypto.

When the argument includes a direct attack on Trump for taking in over a billion dollars
from crypto deals, against an opposing argument defending Trump as simply a
successful businessman, support drops slightly from 71% to 66% but still remains
overwhelming and includes 76% of Democrats, 70% of Independents and even a
majority of Republicans (55%).

They dont provide a complete breakdown but I think thats more in line with your example.

 

[Darat]

What are they for Greater London vs. West Midlands?

That does not seem to be a response to my question.

 

[jt512]

That does not seem to be a response to my question.

LIkewise, but if you can't answer my question, then your allegation that the "USA seems determined to make actual crime statistics impossible hard to get!" has little merit. Let me guess: your next move will be to claim that you didn't mean that the U.S. was unusual in this regard.

 

[Darat]

LIkewise, but if you can't answer my question, then your allegation that the "USA seems determined to make actual crime statistics impossible hard to get!" has little merit. Let me guess: your next move will be to claim that you didn't mean that the U.S. was unusual in this regard.

Again, what is the percentage of state white collar crime convictions in New York v California? Your link does not provide any information about the question I asked.

 

[jt512]

Again, what is the percentage of state white collar crime convictions in New York v California? Your link does not provide any information about the question I asked.

You're right, it doesn't. Of course, it provides answers to other questions pertaining to American crime statistics. All you did was look at the webpage and devise a specific question that you knew the webpage couldn't answer. So what? Obviously, that doesn't substantiate youur claim the "USA seems determined to make actual crime statistics impossible hard to get!"

 

[d4m10n]

In Donald Trump's case however, while a similar proportion of democrats (64%) found the allegations credible, only 37% of republicans did.

How does this compare to the partisan credibility gap we saw regarding claims made by Juanita Broaddrick?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

And he shouldn't have resigned. In hindsight, do you think he should have?

Yes.

And yet he captured 84% of the Democrat vote for reelection in 96, same as his 92 campaign.

So?

Trump got 23% more votes in 2024 than in 2020 from a Voting Eligible Population that only increased by 6%. Proven sexual assault, defamation, multiple frauds and inciting violent insurrection didn't deter conservatives from voting for him. If anything it encouraged them. To understand why you just have to look at Project 2025, the conservative wishlist for America.

The project's policy document Mandate for Leadership calls for the replacement of federal civil service workers by people loyal to "the next conservative president" and for taking partisan control of the Department of Justice (DOJ), the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Department of Commerce (DOC), and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). Other agencies, including the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the Department of Education (ED), would be dismantled. It calls for reducing environmental regulations and realigning the National Institutes of Health (NIH) with conservative priorities. The blueprint seeks to reduce taxes on corporations, institute a flat income tax on individuals, cut Medicare and Medicaid, and reverse as many of President Joe Biden's policies as possible. It proposes banning pornography, removing legal protections against anti-LGBT discrimination, and ending diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) programs while having the DOJ prosecute anti-white racism. The project recommends mass deportation of illegal immigrants. The plan also proposes enacting laws supported by the Christian right

That's the real reason conservatives turn a blind eye to Trump's excesses. You can't say he hasn't delivered either.

Yes, her husband's. Much like trumps family, not trump. No one believes these are seperated. I only use Pelosi since shes known, but obviously it is a large issue on both sides.

Not a good reason, because we all know why she's being targeted - the same reason MTG was being targeted by liberals - partisan politics. At least liberals have a fig leaf of abhorring excessive wealth to hide behind, but it still doesn't excuse such behavior.

It's not just Trump's family that's raking in billions. Trump himself personally promoted numerous schemes, some of which have been proven fraudulent. And his family aren't just close, some of them are actively involved in government at the top level right alongside him. The opportunity for insider dealing isn't just present, it's practically impossible to avoid. Other president's kept their investments at arms length - not Trump. He flatly refused to. Other presidents showed the world their financial records - not Trump. He flatly refused. Then when they were leaked he sued his own IRS for a ridiculous amount, and settled effectively with himself. Corruption on a scale that would make Putin blush.

Let's get real here - conservatives don't care about Trump's behavior because in the conservative mind enriching yourself and sexually assaulting women isn't something to be ashamed of, it's something to brag about. You only pretend to be outraged when a Democrat does it, or you can accuse him of it. As the saying goes, every accusation is a confession. Trump is a master of it. Many of his supporters wish they had the same chutzpah.