UKIP a one trick Pony

from Wudang's second link

She wrote that "the direction in which the party is going is terrifying: UKIP has descended into a form of racist populism that I cannot bring myself to vote for.
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I'm not sure the party has changed, maybe she just finally noticed - or maybe she wants the publicity.
 
The Don said:
One of the things that UKIP is particularly exercised about is the number of immigrants from Eastern Europe. UKIP claimed that a relaxation of restrictions on 1 January 2014 would open the floodgates. It seems that their concerns were unfounded, although immigration is up year-on-year it has fallen since 1 January:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27407126

Farage is still screaming about teh foreignerzzzzzz (apart from his wife of course :rolleyes:)
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I think you misunderstand where much of Farage and UKIP's support comes from. It seems to me that the problems are the three main parties' aloofness from general concerns of the majority of people, and the fact that these three main parties think they have scored points against UKIP when they haven't.

Saying that immigration from Romania and Bulgaria has actually gone down by 4000 will probably have little effect on those who are considering voting UKIP (not me, for what it is worth), who are instead looking at the general upwards trends represented in that graph on the same article.

In fact, even one of the Labour MPs seems to have made that point:

Labour's shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper said the government had to do more "to address people's legitimate concerns".

She said: "Ministers aren't doing enough to stop employers and agencies exploiting cheap migrant labour, particularly from Eastern Europe, to undercut wages and jobs."
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Of course, UKIP is crude and apparently "populist" (which is another way of saying "the electorate thinks differently from me, the bastards!"), but this belated attempt to think about "people's legitimate concerns" is going to ring hollow when they branded those legitimate concerns as "bigotry" in the past. It's also going to ring hollow that suddenly this dip of 4000 is being celebrated (after all why should it be a good thing) and only really underlines the fact that the main parties are a hostage to these figures, and can apparently do nothing to influence them. And that was the point UKIP made, that they have no control over the figures. What happens, after all, if the next report shows an increase in immigration?
 
angrysoba said:
I think you misunderstand where much of Farage and UKIP's support comes from.
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What makes you think that ? For my sins I get to encounter UKIP supporters of various hues on a daily basis (they are very popular around here). Of course this does not make me an expert on all UKIP supporters and their motives but I'm interested that you think I've got it so wrong.

angrysoba said:
It seems to me that the problems are the three main parties' aloofness from general concerns of the majority of people, and the fact that these three main parties think they have scored points against UKIP when they haven't.
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IMO core UKIP support comes from a variety of groups.

People like my dad who read the Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail or Express and absolutely know that the UK is going down the toilet, that it's the immigrants that are to blame, if they're not stealing our jobs, they're taking our benefits, possibly both at the same time. If only we could have the 1950s back then everything would be OK. Ironically my father is himself an immigrant but he seems to have forgotten that.

People like our local farmers who are passionately anti-EU and blame the EU for everything from the banning of fox hunting with hounds through to last winter's floods. These same farmers are of course perfectly happy to accept EU subsidy but they believe that these subsidies would grow if only we weren't in the EU. The animal farmers are also very unhappy with EU animal welfare legislation, they's like to treat their animals as badly as they want.

Xenophobes who don't want to go the full BNP but who are uncomfortable with all those strange accents and brown faces. They want us out of the EU so that our immigrants come from countries which speak English and have white faces.

These groups are a growing minority and the first group in particular is almost a demographic certainty. They are the core of UKIP support.

The variable element of UKIP support are those who view UKIP as a viable protest vote against the detachment of mainstream politicians, their machinations and perceived corruption. These voters do have a general sympathy towards many of UKIP's goals (the British in general are suspicious of foreigners, are resistant to change are are susceptible to the charms of nostalgia) and they see Nigel Farage as the breath of fresh air that is sorely needed in the political process. They have bought into the UKIP marketing.

As far as the European elections then all of this is overlaid by a growing tide of Euroskepticism. The EU is large, unwieldy and corrupt (in places) and monetary union has served the Southern European countries very badly indeed. The flaws of the EU are easy to point out, easy to exaggerate and play to the British stereotype of foreigners being lazy, corrupt and incompetent. The benefits of the EU are less easy to express in soundbites (not least because the benefits of staying in the EU can be challenged by saying that we'd still have those benefits out of the EU whereas we're certain that all the graft and corruption would disappear if we left) and in any case we already have them so take them for granted. It's my contention that there is a significant section of the British population who would gladly leave the EU solely so they could get duty free on a booze cruise to France without considering the longer term economic implications.


You are IMO right about the major parties' attempts to take on UKIP. I agree that they have absolutely failed to get their message across - in part because the UKIP message is simple and easy to understand but to counter it, you have to become detailed and specific, which is boring - in part because Nigel Farage simply doesn't care when caught out in a lie or untruth, he Gish Gallops onto the next thing. I'm not sure how you'd go about countering such a thing not least because the things that major parties want to highlight about UKIP and their policies (that the UKIP policies aren't fully thought through, that UKIP is a vehicle for its leader, that the major personalities in UKIP are cartoonish and aren't responsible) are the things that some of the electorate like most.
 
The great post, The Don.

Your "variable element of UKIP support" seem to be recoiling somewhat; witness UKIP's support, as measured in the latest polls, seems to be shrinking (though it may be people less willing to admit they'll be voting for the fascistic party).
 
The Don said:
What makes you think that ? For my sins I get to encounter UKIP supporters of various hues on a daily basis (they are very popular around here). Of course this does not make me an expert on all UKIP supporters and their motives but I'm interested that you think I've got it so wrong.



IMO core UKIP support comes from a variety of groups.

People like my dad who read the Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail or Express and absolutely know that the UK is going down the toilet, that it's the immigrants that are to blame, if they're not stealing our jobs, they're taking our benefits, possibly both at the same time. If only we could have the 1950s back then everything would be OK. Ironically my father is himself an immigrant but he seems to have forgotten that.

People like our local farmers who are passionately anti-EU and blame the EU for everything from the banning of fox hunting with hounds through to last winter's floods. These same farmers are of course perfectly happy to accept EU subsidy but they believe that these subsidies would grow if only we weren't in the EU. The animal farmers are also very unhappy with EU animal welfare legislation, they's like to treat their animals as badly as they want.

Xenophobes who don't want to go the full BNP but who are uncomfortable with all those strange accents and brown faces. They want us out of the EU so that our immigrants come from countries which speak English and have white faces.

These groups are a growing minority and the first group in particular is almost a demographic certainty. They are the core of UKIP support.

The variable element of UKIP support are those who view UKIP as a viable protest vote against the detachment of mainstream politicians, their machinations and perceived corruption. These voters do have a general sympathy towards many of UKIP's goals (the British in general are suspicious of foreigners, are resistant to change are are susceptible to the charms of nostalgia) and they see Nigel Farage as the breath of fresh air that is sorely needed in the political process. They have bought into the UKIP marketing.

As far as the European elections then all of this is overlaid by a growing tide of Euroskepticism. The EU is large, unwieldy and corrupt (in places) and monetary union has served the Southern European countries very badly indeed. The flaws of the EU are easy to point out, easy to exaggerate and play to the British stereotype of foreigners being lazy, corrupt and incompetent. The benefits of the EU are less easy to express in soundbites (not least because the benefits of staying in the EU can be challenged by saying that we'd still have those benefits out of the EU whereas we're certain that all the graft and corruption would disappear if we left) and in any case we already have them so take them for granted. It's my contention that there is a significant section of the British population who would gladly leave the EU solely so they could get duty free on a booze cruise to France without considering the longer term economic implications.


You are IMO right about the major parties' attempts to take on UKIP. I agree that they have absolutely failed to get their message across - in part because the UKIP message is simple and easy to understand but to counter it, you have to become detailed and specific, which is boring - in part because Nigel Farage simply doesn't care when caught out in a lie or untruth, he Gish Gallops onto the next thing. I'm not sure how you'd go about countering such a thing not least because the things that major parties want to highlight about UKIP and their policies (that the UKIP policies aren't fully thought through, that UKIP is a vehicle for its leader, that the major personalities in UKIP are cartoonish and aren't responsible) are the things that some of the electorate like most.
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I will second the poster who said this was a great post. I take back what I say about misunderstanding the potential UKIPers.
 
I agree with most of The Don's points, but AngrySoba is right about UKIP being viewed as a legitimate protest vote by a lot of people.
A large chunk of the electorate feel absolutely isolated and abandoned by the three major parties, especially since the collaboration between the Tories and the Lib Dems.
Significant sections of the media point to immigration and the EU as a source of general woe, so it's not surprising that some are fooled by this.
 
There are people here in Scotland, living in villages where you never see a face that isn't white nor hear a surname that isn't indigenous to the area, and where the local authority is struggling to staff its care for the elderly services, who tell opinion pollsters that their main political worry is immigration (and they don't mean too little of it either, though they should).

Just not very many of them, thank goodness.

Rolfe.
 
Wudang said:
From http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/olly-neville/the-full-story-why-ukip-fired-me_b_2481983.html

"All this from a party that claims to value free speech and would rather 'eccentrics' and 'free thinkers' than the bland and boring. It seems to me that UKIP support free speech, as long as you are agreeing with them."
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Ah, I thought that was going to be this story

or this story


I haven't seen anyone commenting on the perfectly reasonable statement that "...any normal and fair-minded person would have a perfect right to be concerned if a group of Romanian people suddenly moved in next door."

(According to the radio this morning, the crime figures don't provide a breakdown of the nationality of offenders) but I suppose that doesn't matter.



I still liked their 2010 manifseto, where at least we knew what they thought the policies should be - my favourite being the commissioning of a third aircraft carrier with no aircraft to fly from it.
 
Farage has written an open letter in the Times justifying his view that Romanians are criminals.

He has quoted figures saying that 92% of ATM fraud in London is carried out by Romanians. Turns out that it's only anecdotal evidence from a single copper, there are no systematically gathered evidence.

He claimed that 7% of crime throughout Europe is carried out by Romanians. Turns out that these figures are not available.

Sounds like Farage has doubled-down with some dodgy figures. Now UKIP has put forward their community spokesperson Suzanne Evans who claims that she was given insufficient time to prepare for her interview - although the request for interview was made several hours ago. This highlights a couple of things:

  • UKIP is a one man band.
  • UKIP simply do not care about facts - they make nonsense up
  • They may not be racist but they do seem to be xenophobic
 
Trump this one:

My rivals should be hanged for treason, says Ukip candidate

Mr Ferguson wrote: “The Lib-Lab-Cons have conspired with a foreign power, the EU, and are all thereby guilty of treason. They have sold Britain, which is the fifth largest economy, illegally into increasing slavery inside the EU dictatorship. Those responsible should be hung by the neck until dead.”

He went on: “As likely as not, however, they will never be brought to account because our senior police, Crown Prosecution Service and judges are almost all exclusively freemasons, and Britain’s courts have been utterly corrupt for many years. They are almost all in the pocket of the EU.

Mr Ferguson, who is running for Cambridge ward in Southport, Lancashire, added: “If you vote for any of the three Lib- Lab- Con- parties you will be aiding and abetting them and you will also be guilty by association of treason against our nation. No-one should knowingly support a corrupt organisation.”
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Nigel Farage has complained his party faces far tougher scrutiny than its rivals after a string of Ukip candidates were exposed making offensive, racist and eccentric comments. He said on Friday: “All anyone wants to talk about is the idiots in Ukip.”
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Meanwhile:

“By being so forthright, maybe that was not wise,” he [Ferguson] conceded, adding: “I would hate to be an embarrassment to Nigel Farage. I have the greatest respect for him.”
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I have just watched a Channel 4 news report about Nigel Fiasco's slip up and noticed all the main party leaders were wearing purple ties.......

Is that a mark of the ruling elite now *joke alert*
 
Rincewind said:
I'm curious...

Is Farage a French name?

Just askin'
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Apparently his wife is German.

A colleague told me that he heard the news quote part of the LBC interview where Farage made the Romanian statement, and the LBC interviewer was ripping him to shreds - amongst other things asking why it would be different with Germans.


Rolfe said:
Try this.

http://swns.com/news/ukip-candidate...locaust-masterplan-create-state-israel-34642/

Warning. You may need to bleach your brain out after reading it.

Rolfe.
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I think I can see where it is going with the link address, thanks...

Mind you in my quote I thought the Masonic conspiracy was also a common shibboleth* for neo-Nazis

I think it is time to repost the following.

Nigel Farage has complained his party faces far tougher scrutiny than its rivals after a string of Ukip candidates were exposed making offensive, racist and eccentric comments. He said on Friday: “All anyone wants to talk about is the idiots in Ukip.”
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I despise that party and anyone who thinks it will "send a message" to "the establishment". It is not comic, it is the mask slipping.



*See what I did there...
 
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