UKIP a one trick Pony

[Agatha]

My tolerance for inane misogyny will never be high enough for that, Catsmate!

 

[Soapy Sam]

One point that may be worth remembering.

Very few people , in any society, ever had much say in the shape of it.
Nobody in 18th or 19th century Britain "voted for" the British Empire. It happened as a result of a complex chain of events running from Elizabeethan freebooters, through individuals like Clive and trading corporations like the East India Company. Nobody planned it Nobody voted for it. It just happened.

Nobody voted to be a communist behind the Iron Curtain.

Nobody voted for most human societies. What gives them their existence and stability is a combination of inertia and revolution. Punctuated equilibrium, in fact.

The EEC -EC (they realised it was uneconomic) -EU (same again, only more so) transition is an example Small numbers of people change things and one day we all wake up and notice. . Is it headed for a federal European government? Yes. Live with it or get off the pot.

Those of us who live in Europe do , however, have a say. So get off your bums and vote in the upcoming EU elections, whether for UKIP or whoever. Do it.

Having a postal vote, I already did. Rolfe will be delighted to note that in this case I feel able to vote SNP. Indeed, given the likelihood of a Euro referendum in the next few years, I see little option.

 

[Architect]

The EEC -EC (they realised it was uneconomic) -EU (same again, only more so) transition is an example Small numbers of people change things and one day we all wake up and notice. . Is it headed for a federal European government? Yes. Live with it or get off the pot.

Those of us who live in Europe do , however, have a say. So get off your bums and vote in the upcoming EU elections, whether for UKIP or whoever. Do it.

Having a postal vote, I already did. Rolfe will be delighted to note that in this case I feel able to vote SNP. Indeed, given the likelihood of a Euro referendum in the next few years, I see little option.

I am broadly of similar mind.

 

[Rolfe]

Thirded. That's pretty much what the not-quite-elderly English couple said to me when they stopped me in the village to ask about the procedure for getting postal votes. It's important to vote, and we want to vote in such a way as to minimise the chances of being dragged out of the EU.

Rolfe.

 

[catsmate]

My tolerance for inane misogyny will never be high enough for that, Catsmate!

Good choice. The man is nuts.

 

[Recovering Agnostic]

Hmmm, I hear this accusation a lot but I rarely see it.

Now be clear - I'm sure the UKIP platform attracts racists. Their policy about Europe and immigration is clearly going to be a lapdance for racists, and UKIP is a much more acceptable party for racists to vote for (as compared to say the BNP). So I'm sure many UKIP voters are racists, and many members are too.

But it seems like a stretch to me to say that racism what their policies amount to.

You possibly misunderstand me slightly, owing to a combination of my wording and the autocensor. I believe UKIP are a fundamentally racist party, even if their policies are generally carefully managed to grant plausible deniability, but that wasn't my point here - their bigotry is more rounded than that. Their main appeal other than as a single issue anti-EU protest is as a sort of 1950s throwback. It's a sepia-tinged reaction to pretty much every single piece of social progress since then.

In UKIP world, homosexuality is a disgusting and filthy perversion which is only tolerated at all because the prisons couldn't cope with so many sodomites, women should stop being so oversensitive every time some stranger slaps them on the bum and calls them darling, elf 'n' safety and especially political correctness have gorn mad, and so on. This isn't just an opinion derived from their nutty members (more accurately, any time any UKIP candidate speaks at all), but from reading the back-of-a-fag-packet ramblings in their manifesto. It isn't a bug, it's a feature. But it places them firmly at the reactionary end of the spectrum, with no actual solutions, just pub bore moaning.

Yep. But there's nothing actually wrong with any of that. Indeed the whole point of having a central government made up of politicians from different regions is so that local concerns from all over play a part in how the central government does it's thing. Jumping on popular local bandwagons is part of what politicians are supposed to do.

No, no, no. MPs are elected to serve and to represent their constituents, not to jump on populist bandwagons. You do understand the difference? Representation involves supporting causes, raising the issues with appropriate people, and working to find an actual workable solution. It's hard work, and important work. That's not what they're doing. They stick their oar in whenever people are cross about something, while doing nothing to support their campaign, raise awareness, ask questions or do anything but get a quote in the local paper along the lines of "traditional politics has let people down."

They don't offer an alternative to this "traditional politics", or support, or solutions to these bandwagon issues, or anything other than "we don't like this!" It's all of a piece with the kneejerk anti-PC nostalgia, and even their founding anti-EU policy, based entirely on what they're against, with no coherent or even visible engagement with the issues, or explanation of what they'd do differently. They're not a political party, so much as a massive national tantrum.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I have discovered that UKIP has a freepost address, so if anyone were to deface their leaflet and then put it in an envelope addressed to UKIP FREEPOST RLSU-HZBG-UBBG, Lexdrum House, Heathfield, Devon TQ12 6UT then it will cost UKIP money which they might otherwise spend on more advertising.

Some Christian organisation did a big anti-abortion mailing in the Netherlands some years ago. It contained a tastefully arranged plastic "dead foetus".

They also provided a free return address (they had to pay for the postage of any mail to that postbox).

Some artists started a campaign called 'Back to your maker', calling on people to return the dead-toy-baby by mail.

Many people attached the little bugger to a brick or a cinder block.

I was amused.

 

[Agatha]

Some Christian organisation did a big anti-abortion mailing in the Netherlands some years ago. It contained a tastefully arranged plastic "dead foetus".

They also provided a free return address (they had to pay for the postage of any mail to that postbox).

Some artists started a campaign called 'Back to your maker', calling on people to return the dead-toy-baby by mail.

Many people attached the little bugger to a brick or a cinder block.

I was amused.

A lot of people sent UKIP bricks and suchlike using the freepost address. I suspect it cost them quite a lot of money.

However, the address has now been suspended by Royal Mail as people were sending "objectionable material" such as bodily fluids and bodily waste, which RM refuse to carry. It seems UKIP are free to keep doling out their ****, but they can't receive it back. I only sent them a torn up leaflet.

In the meantime, Channel 4 News has unearthed a letter apparently sent by a member of staff at Dulwich College to the Master of the school, objecting to Farage N. P.'s appointment as a prefect on the grounds of the racism he had expressed towards other pupils (amongst other objections). http://www.scribd.com/doc/169454715/Nigel-Farage-1981-school-letter I do not know if there is any doubt about the letter's veracity, but C4 News seem to be standing by it.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Don't send them anything. Just vote for someone you prefer. In Scotland , there's the additional option of the SNP, but the rest of the UK has fair choice too. The important thing is to turn out on the day. EU elections in particular are prone to poor turnouts, which make them easier for single issue groups to be over represented.
If you don't go and UKIP supporters do, then you know who to blame.

 

[Seismosaurus]

You possibly misunderstand me slightly, owing to a combination of my wording and the autocensor. I believe UKIP are a fundamentally racist party, even if their policies are generally carefully managed to grant plausible deniability

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by that. The only way a party can be racist is for its policies to be racist. If UKIP's policies are carefully managed to not be racist, then it's not a racist party.

I don't doubt that it appeals to racists, and I don't doubt that it has racists in it. As I've said.

In UKIP world, homosexuality is a disgusting and filthy perversion which is only tolerated at all because the prisons couldn't cope with so many sodomites, women should stop being so oversensitive every time some stranger slaps them on the bum and calls them darling, elf 'n' safety and especially political correctness have gorn mad, and so on. This isn't just an opinion derived from their nutty members (more accurately, any time any UKIP candidate speaks at all), but from reading the back-of-a-fag-packet ramblings in their manifesto. It isn't a bug, it's a feature. But it places them firmly at the reactionary end of the spectrum, with no actual solutions, just pub bore moaning.

I doubt their manifesto says that homosexuality should be illegal and the only reason not to lock them up is lack of prison space. I'd be happy to be corrected on that, but I've read some of their stuff and never seen anything like that.

No, no, no. MPs are elected to serve and to represent their constituents, not to jump on populist bandwagons. You do understand the difference? Representation involves supporting causes, raising the issues with appropriate people, and working to find an actual workable solution.

But it is also necessary for those causes and solutions to be acceptable to the people, i.e. popular.

In any case, what you describe is exactly what the major parties are failing to do. A lot of people have a concern about the EU, a lot of people have a concern about immigration. The major parties approach to those people is to ignore them, tell them they're stupid, or call them a bunch of racists. UKIP is the result of that attitude.

It's hard work, and important work. That's not what they're doing. They stick their oar in whenever people are cross about something, while doing nothing to support their campaign, raise awareness, ask questions or do anything but get a quote in the local paper along the lines of "traditional politics has let people down."

They don't offer an alternative to this "traditional politics", or support, or solutions to these bandwagon issues, or anything other than "we don't like this!" It's all of a piece with the kneejerk anti-PC nostalgia, and even their founding anti-EU policy, based entirely on what they're against, with no coherent or even visible engagement with the issues, or explanation of what they'd do differently. They're not a political party, so much as a massive national tantrum.

But the do offer alternatives. Exit the EU. End immigration. Those are alternatives, and the people who aren't being listened to by the mainstream parties are going to opt for them - and they will do it whether it makes sense or not, whether they are any kind of workable solution or not.

If the mainstream parties don't like that then they need to engage with these people and start offering an actual solution of their own.

 

[angrysoba]

You possibly misunderstand me slightly, owing to a combination of my wording and the autocensor. I believe UKIP are a fundamentally racist party, even if their policies are generally carefully managed to grant plausible deniability, but that wasn't my point here - their bigotry is more rounded than that. Their main appeal other than as a single issue anti-EU protest is as a sort of 1950s throwback. It's a sepia-tinged reaction to pretty much every single piece of social progress since then.

In UKIP world, homosexuality is a disgusting and filthy perversion which is only tolerated at all because the prisons couldn't cope with so many sodomites, women should stop being so oversensitive every time some stranger slaps them on the bum and calls them darling, elf 'n' safety and especially political correctness have gorn mad, and so on. This isn't just an opinion derived from their nutty members (more accurately, any time any UKIP candidate speaks at all), but from reading the back-of-a-fag-packet ramblings in their manifesto. It isn't a bug, it's a feature. But it places them firmly at the reactionary end of the spectrum, with no actual solutions, just pub bore moaning.


No, no, no. MPs are elected to serve and to represent their constituents, not to jump on populist bandwagons. You do understand the difference? Representation involves supporting causes, raising the issues with appropriate people, and working to find an actual workable solution. It's hard work, and important work. That's not what they're doing. They stick their oar in whenever people are cross about something, while doing nothing to support their campaign, raise awareness, ask questions or do anything but get a quote in the local paper along the lines of "traditional politics has let people down."

They don't offer an alternative to this "traditional politics", or support, or solutions to these bandwagon issues, or anything other than "we don't like this!" It's all of a piece with the kneejerk anti-PC nostalgia, and even their founding anti-EU policy, based entirely on what they're against, with no coherent or even visible engagement with the issues, or explanation of what they'd do differently. They're not a political party, so much as a massive national tantrum.

All this may or may not be true, but the attempts to brand them a bunch of racist fruitcakes and loonies has had a decidedly counterproductive effect.

Unfortunately, as with those who try to hit Alex Salmond and the SNP with any old stick that comes to hand, a lot of Farage and UKIP's potential voters see the attacks as desperate.

 

[Francesca R]

I would have thought that anyone hoping for the right-of-centre vote to be split (thus helping the Labour party in the UK) would be interested in the UKIP being portrayed as as non-racist and non-fringe as practical.

 

[Rolfe]

A lot of traditional Labour voters are looking at UKIP too, though.

I think the other factor is that even if a lot of Tories go UKIP for the Euros they'll go back to the Tories in 2015 wherever they judge it might let Labour through in a particular seat. I think that's one of the things that's going to screw Labour at that point.

Rolfe.

 

[Recovering Agnostic]

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by that. The only way a party can be racist is for its policies to be racist. If UKIP's policies are carefully managed to not be racist, then it's not a racist party.

I don't doubt that it appeals to racists, and I don't doubt that it has racists in it. As I've said.

No, as I said, their policies are racist, but are presented in such a way as to allow wiggle room and plausible deniability if they're accused of such a thing.

I doubt their manifesto says that homosexuality should be illegal and the only reason not to lock them up is lack of prison space. I'd be happy to be corrected on that, but I've read some of their stuff and never seen anything like that.

So that's the point you choose to pick up on? Oooooookay. They are clear in their opposition to homosexuality, and their aim to deny gay couples basic legal rights. Their carefully picked candidate for the Newark by-election considers homosexuality to be on the level of a mental illness. You'll forgive me if I don't feel too concerned about the accuracy of my assessment.

I also note that you haven't challenged my description of their equally repugnant sexism. The best that can be said is that they're not specifically racist, just equal-opportunity bigots.

But it is also necessary for those causes and solutions to be acceptable to the people, i.e. popular.

In any case, what you describe is exactly what the major parties are failing to do. A lot of people have a concern about the EU, a lot of people have a concern about immigration. The major parties approach to those people is to ignore them, tell them they're stupid, or call them a bunch of racists. UKIP is the result of that attitude.

You mean people are voting for a racist party because they don't like being accused of racism for holding racist views? Hmm.

And I have no idea what gives you the idea that such people are disenfranchised by other parties - the debate on the topics you mention has been lurching violently to the right for at least the last 20 years, the very opposite of the picture you paint or the Gospel According to UKIP. Why else do you think Farage found himself pitted against political pygmy and historical footnote Nick Clegg in their TV debates? Hint: It's not because the other parties thought Clegg would present the arguments better than them.

But the do offer alternatives. Exit the EU. End immigration. Those are alternatives, and the people who aren't being listened to by the mainstream parties are going to opt for them - and they will do it whether it makes sense or not, whether they are any kind of workable solution or not.

If the mainstream parties don't like that then they need to engage with these people and start offering an actual solution of their own.

Once again, tantrum politics:

"I want a lolly, and I'm going to scream until I get one!"
"You can't have a lolly, because we haven't got one."
"I want a lolly!"
"We haven't got one!"
"You need to start offering solutions of your own! WAAAAAAHHH!"

I bow to no one in my contempt for political parties and the state of politics in general, and I would be delighted to see a genuine political alternative, but UKIP aren't it. In fact, they're such vacuous, hypocritical, kneejerk NIMBYs that their net effect is to make politics even worse, something I previously thought impossible.

 

[angrysoba]

Nigel Farage of the UKIPs was on Question Time:

 

[catsmate]

Some Christian organisation did a big anti-abortion mailing in the Netherlands some years ago. It contained a tastefully arranged plastic "dead foetus".

They also provided a free return address (they had to pay for the postage of any mail to that postbox).

Some artists started a campaign called 'Back to your maker', calling on people to return the dead-toy-baby by mail.

Many people attached the little bugger to a brick or a cinder block.

I was amused.

My nephew and a few of his friends did that for a "charity" here. Used the post paid return envelope to send them further paper junk. And arranged so that the envelopes were over the maximum weight for letter rate and thus attracted a surcharge.
Cost them a few grand.

Don't send them anything. Just vote for someone you prefer. In Scotland , there's the additional option of the SNP, but the rest of the UK has fair choice too. The important thing is to turn out on the day. EU elections in particular are prone to poor turnouts, which make them easier for single issue groups to be over represented.If you don't go and UKIP supporters do, then you know who to blame.

This.

 

[Craig B]

I would have thought that anyone hoping for the right-of-centre vote to be split (thus helping the Labour party in the UK) would be interested in the UKIP being portrayed as as non-racist and non-fringe as practical.

That seems unnecessarily devious and even slightly immoral. People who think that UKIP are slightly insane fascists are under a strong obligation, I would have thought, to make this as widely known as possible, and to oppose UKIP as vigorously as they can.

 

[Seismosaurus]

Double post

 

[Seismosaurus]

No, as I said, their policies are racist, but are presented in such a way as to allow wiggle room and plausible deniability if they're accused of such a thing.

This makes no sense to me. If the policies are presented in a way so as to avoid accusations of racism, then they are not racist.

So that's the point you choose to pick up on? Oooooookay. They are clear in their opposition to homosexuality, and their aim to deny gay couples basic legal rights.

In what way?

Their carefully picked candidate for the Newark by-election considers homosexuality to be on the level of a mental illness. You'll forgive me if I don't feel too concerned about the accuracy of my assessment.

Well, if you don't concern yourself with being accurate then there really isn't a lot of point in talking to you.

Hyperbole statements are fun and all, but if you're going to accuse them of racism then you really need more than your personal feeling as to what you think they actually mean.

And I have no idea what gives you the idea that such people are disenfranchised by other parties - the debate on the topics you mention has been lurching violently to the right for at least the last 20 years, the very opposite of the picture you paint or the Gospel According to UKIP.

Which mainstream party has given the voters a choice for less European integration? The only choice they offer is "just a bit more" or "a lot more more".

Why else do you think Farage found himself pitted against political pygmy and historical footnote Nick Clegg in their TV debates? Hint: It's not because the other parties thought Clegg would present the arguments better than them.

I think Clegg probably thought he would wipe the floor with Farrage and thus badly harm UKIP whilst boosting his own image and credibility. But it backfired on him rather badly.

Once again, tantrum politics:

Label it what you like.

I bow to no one in my contempt for political parties and the state of politics in general, and I would be delighted to see a genuine political alternative, but UKIP aren't it. In fact, they're such vacuous, hypocritical, kneejerk NIMBYs that their net effect is to make politics even worse, something I previously thought impossible.

So you're taking the tack of simply insulting and dismissing them. Fair enough, you have every right in the world to do that. But it's not going to help you advance your cause.

 

[The Don]

One of the things that UKIP is particularly exercised about is the number of immigrants from Eastern Europe. UKIP claimed that a relaxation of restrictions on 1 January 2014 would open the floodgates. It seems that their concerns were unfounded, although immigration is up year-on-year it has fallen since 1 January:

There were 140,000 Romanians and Bulgarians employed in the UK in the first three months after visa controls were lifted, figures show.

This was down by 4,000 on the final quarter of 2013, but up by 29,000 compared with the same time last year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27407126

Farage is still screaming about teh foreignerzzzzzz (apart from his wife of course )

UKIP leader Nigel Farage said the figures showed "another huge increase" in foreign workers.