UKIP a one trick Pony

Rolfe said:
I'm more puzzled by the people who are living here purely by choice, and who nevertheless say they have no desire to be Scots. I suppose it's much the same as the Brits who retire to Spain for the sun. They're here for the lifestyle, not to be assimilated. Well, that's OK too.
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Why would they bother? Whether you're a Brit in Spain, or a Latvian in Scotland, or whatever, your passport says "European Union" and entitltes you to nearly all the rights and priviliges of a native.
 
Right enough. I tend to think that deciding to settle in a country permanently with no intention to return to your country of birth indicates a desire to change your nationality to the new country, but that's by no means a given.

As you say, it doesn't matter anyway because there is no distinction as regards citizens' rights. The point is that someone born in England but ordinarily resident in Scotland has the right to claim Scottish citizenship. Not that they are in any way obliged to do that.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Right enough. I tend to think that deciding to settle in a country permanently with no intention to return to your country of birth indicates a desire to change your nationality to the new country, but that's by no means a given.
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Not at all. My mother is Irish but lives in England, my sister is not French but lives there, and I live in Japan but am not Japanese. If I were to "go back" to the UK as it were, with my wife, I doubt she would decide to become British.
 
Rolfe said:
Right enough. I tend to think that deciding to settle in a country permanently with no intention to return to your country of birth indicates a desire to change your nationality to the new country, but that's by no means a given.
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I don't think so, that's quite individual. Some may take up the nationality of their adopted country to express being a citizen of that country, or because it does confer significant advantages over permanent residency, or as requirement of the job (e.g., politician).

And then there can also be quite big differences in how people settle in another country. On the one side, you have those who retire to the Costa Brava and live there in a British/Dutch/... enclave without ever learning a proper word of Spanish. On the other side, there's lots more of people who have a job and partake in the social life of their adopted country.

Rolfe said:
As you say, it doesn't matter anyway because there is no distinction as regards citizens' rights. The point is that someone born in England but ordinarily resident in Scotland has the right to claim Scottish citizenship. Not that they are in any way obliged to do that.
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Which seems the obvious thing to do. And, IMHO, ius solis makes much more sense than ius sanguinis. Until ten years ago, for instance, a Volga German whose ancestors emigrated to Russia around 1700 could claim German citizenship but the child of Turkish immigrants born and raised in Germany could not. That's ludicrous. How would you define a Scot in such a system? Someone who can prove they had Scottish ancestors in 1707?
 
As a Scot living in England I think it's perfectly fair I don't get a vote and the people who live there do as they're the ones affected by it. I recently crossed the halfway mark and have now lived in England (30 years) longer than I did in Scotland (25) but consider myself Scots.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ip-may-have-common-ground-with-front-national

Nigel Farage has said Ukip may have enough "common fronts" with France's Front National to vote with the party and other Eurosceptic groups to block legislation in Brussels.
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Le Pen has accused Farage of slander against her and "extremely disagreeable declarations" in an attempt to boost his popularity. However, Geert Wilders, the Eurosceptic leader of the Dutch Freedom party, has said he still holds out hope that he could get the two leaders to work together.
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I think that you can judge someone by the company they keep.
 
Unfortunately (and predictably) UKIP has made major gains in the UK local elections.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27531094

In some places like Hainault they have split the Conservative vote and allowed Labour. Conservative back-benchers are calling for an election pact with UKIP for the general election. IMO this would signal a huge lurch to the right (and backwards) for UK politics.
 
The Don said:
Unfortunately (and predictably) UKIP has made major gains in the UK local elections.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27531094

In some places like Hainault they have split the Conservative vote and allowed Labour. Conservative back-benchers are calling for an election pact with UKIP for the general election. IMO this would signal a huge lurch to the right (and backwards) for UK politics.
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Surely there has been a constant lurch (or perhaps trundle would be better) for at least the last 30 years.
 
Rat said:
Surely there has been a constant lurch (or perhaps trundle would be better) for at least the last 30 years.
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Yes, there has been a trundle. Personally I'd see an election pact between the Conservatives and UKIP being a step change (in the wrong direction).

I find the anti-immigration message frightening. As the son of, and husband of, immigrants I can see my father and wife being subjected to increasing hostility and attacks.

As for getting out of Europe, I have a large personal interest in keeping in Europe (my company will go out of business if we leave the EU) and so the increasing likelihood that this will happen fills me with trepidation.
 
We've heard all the screaming scare stories of "uncertainty" for businesses in the context of the Scottish independence referendum - which turned out to be moonshine as investment increased and nobody seems to be that bothered because we'll be staying in the EU.

Why aren't we hearing the far more real and far more extreme scare stories that should be accompanying this threat of leaving the EU? Because talking down UKIP doesn't suit the agenda of the press?

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
We've heard all the screaming scare stories of "uncertainty" for businesses in the context of the Scottish independence referendum - which turned out to be moonshine as investment increased and nobody seems to be that bothered because we'll be staying in the EU.

Why aren't we hearing the far more real and far more extreme scare stories that should be accompanying this threat of leaving the EU? Because talking down UKIP doesn't suit the agenda of the press?

Rolfe.
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Plenty of talking down UKIP in the press, Rolfe. It's been nothing but talking them down for weeks, perhaps months. But even Farage having to be saved from a radio interview by his aide, getting egged and having total bampots for councillors, all of which have been plastered all over the papers in the south, hasn't stopped them from making real inroads into becoming a viable 4th party in England.

Now we know how valid the argument about a permanent Tory govt is if Scotland were to become independent (ie not very), but with the big mo with UKIP, there is a chance that an independent Scotland could result in a long period of coalition governments in an rUK.
 
Farage is never off Question Time, and a lot of the coverage is in the category of "no such thing as bad publicity". Nobody ever seems to pressure him on policy.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Farage is never off Question Time, and a lot of the coverage is in the category of "no such thing as bad publicity". Nobody ever seems to pressure him on policy.

Rolfe.
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IMO Nigel Farage is a very canny performer. As I've stated in this thread and elsewhere his "hale fellow well met" persona, lack of care about facts and whether on not he is right and his adherence to his soundbites means that if someone does attempt to pin him down on policy details, they come across as a hectoring bore and Farage is still a good chap "putting a fox in the Westminster hen house".

The nice chap who doesn't want to talk specifics seems to resonate with a large section of society who find politics a chore but like having a clear set of scapegoats (the EU and foreigners) for their problems.
 
Skepticemea said:
Now we know how valid the argument about a permanent Tory govt is if Scotland were to become independent (ie not very), but with the big mo with UKIP, there is a chance that an independent Scotland could result in a long period of coalition governments in an rUK.
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You don't think this is happening already, regardless of UK / rUK? Neither the Cons or Lab can fight their way out of wet, torn, paper bag, and the Lib Dems have never been as irrelevant. Hell, DC couldn't get a majority over Gordon Brown in a recession. I am utterly unsurprised votes are bleeding away at a local level to fringe parties, and I fully expect that to carry over to a hung parliament next year.

The democratic process at work. When people turn to UKIP / BNP et al you can be sure your major party message is falling on angry, not deaf, ears. Sow it then reap it etc.

Harrumph.
 
The Don said:
IMO Nigel Farage is a very canny performer. As I've stated in this thread and elsewhere his "hale fellow well met" persona, lack of care about facts and whether on not he is right and his adherence to his soundbites means that if someone does attempt to pin him down on policy details, they come across as a hectoring bore and Farage is still a good chap "putting a fox in the Westminster hen house".
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This. He knows what gets airtime, he knows how to appear, and how to appeal, to the swath of society he wishes to target. And it works. People cannot be bothered with pesky details of facts.

All politicians appear before us with a carefully tailored stand-up routine, just that Farage is more visible with his heady brew of crafted racism-for-the-man-on-the-street.
 
malicus said:
You don't think this is happening already, regardless of UK / rUK? Neither the Cons or Lab can fight their way out of wet, torn, paper bag, and the Lib Dems have never been as irrelevant. Hell, DC couldn't get a majority over Gordon Brown in a recession. I am utterly unsurprised votes are bleeding away at a local level to fringe parties, and I fully expect that to carry over to a hung parliament next year.

The democratic process at work. When people turn to UKIP / BNP et al you can be sure your major party message is falling on angry, not deaf, ears. Sow it then reap it etc.

Harrumph.
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Double harrumph.

I do think it's happening already (witness the inability of the Conservative failure to gain a majority against a near-terminally wounded Labour party) however the secession of a (nominally) centre-left proportion of the country is going to push those coalitions further right.

The two and a half main parties response so far today has been risibile. The Tories are saying it's about immigration and benefits, Labour about cost of living and the Lib Dems... well who cares what they say. Essentially, the messages from Con and Lab remain the same, no matter how hard they get slapped at the ballot box.
 
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