UK - December 2019 General Election

[wobs]

Assuming there may be the odd tory voter in this thread:
Can anyone say anything good about voting for the Conservatives. As in, is there anything positive that they do (or will do), that makes it worthwhile.

And not being Corbyn does not count.

Reason I ask is that my FB feed has consisted of left wing people posting a mixture of positive Labour memes, and negative tory memes, while my right wing friends (who are few in number), have only posted anti-Corbyn memes. They seem to have nothing to about their leader.

Its been largely a negative campaign.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

No that was caused by the Falklands war.

Before that she was incredibly unpopular with everyone including Conservatives and it is very likely she wouldn't have won the next GE.

The split off from Labour of the SDP also played a big part in it.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

More disinformation from the Torys

The Conservatives have set up a website that purports to contain Labour’s manifesto, in a bid to trick voters looking for the document.

The governing party paid Google to promote the website labourmanifesto.co.uk towards the top of its results for people searching for the opposition plan.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-fake-labour-manifesto-website-fact-check-general-election-a9212076.html

 

[Information Analyst]

More disinformation from the Torys

The Conservatives have set up a website that purports to contain Labour’s manifesto, in a bid to trick voters looking for the document.

The governing party paid Google to promote the website labourmanifesto.co.uk towards the top of its results for people searching for the opposition plan.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-fake-labour-manifesto-website-fact-check-general-election-a9212076.html

Can't believe that Labour didn't bother registering the very "obvious" domain name long ago! The Conservatives have been using "conservativemifesto.co.uk" since 2001 - currently as a redirect to "voteconservative.com" - whilst "torymanifesto.co.uk" is registered but unused.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I think the behaviour of the Lib Dems and Tories and the media is actually going to persuade me to vote Labour this time round.... unbelievable really.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Can't believe that Labour didn't bother registering the very "obvious" domain name long ago! The Conservatives have been using "conservativemifesto.co.uk" since 2001 - currently as a redirect to "voteconservative.com" - whilst "torymanifesto.co.uk" is registered but unused.

I agree it's a foolish oversight, but that doesn't excuse this kind of behaviour.

 

[lobosrul5]

I think the behaviour of the Lib Dems and Tories and the media is actually going to persuade me to vote Labour this time round.... unbelievable really.

What did the Lib Dems do?

 

[Vixen]

If my experience of Labour Party membership in the 1980s is anything to go by, a devastating defeat in the polls is a badge of honour, a clear indication that their policies are the right ones.

OO-ooooo. Cynical.

 

[Vixen]

I think the behaviour of the Lib Dems and Tories and the media is actually going to persuade me to vote Labour this time round.... unbelievable really.

Great you will now be braving the rain and the snow to lodge your vote.

 

[dudalb]

OO-ooooo. Cynical.

But true. Hard Line political ideologues often seem to prefer ideological purity to winning elections.
They have a a hard time dealing with the idea that a majority of the population might not be as militant as they are.

 

[dudalb]

No that was caused by the Falklands war.

Before that she was incredibly unpopular with everyone including Conservatives and it is very likely she wouldn't have won the next GE.

Sorry, that is pure crap.
Labor made a lot of mistakes in the 1980's; that is the main reason for why Thachter stayed in power for so long.
You seem to have forgotten about the "most public suicide note in history" which scared many people who did not really like Thachter away from voting for labor.

 

[The Don]

What did the Lib Dems do?

Accused Scottish Nationalists of being racist (allegedly).

 

[The Don]

OO-ooooo. Cynical.

I was there for the 1983 elections and saw it first hand

 

[The Don]

I've had a chance to have a quick look at the "headline" policies in the Labour manifesto. My take on them are as follows:

£75bn to build 150,000 new council and social homes a year, within five years

A laudable aim - isn't going to happen but it's better than the Tories who haven't built a single affordable home.

An immediate 5% pay rise for public sector workers, with year-on-year above-inflation pay rises to follow

Whilst I agree that public sector workers could use a pay rise after "Austerity", how do they propose to fund this ?

Introducing a "real living wage" of at least £10 an hour

Good

Reviewing the retirement age for people in hard manual jobs

As long as nothing comes of it, this'll be fine but otherwise it'll be a minefield of what is hard manual labour, whether it's age or sex discrimination, and whether or not it is affordable.

Introducing a second homes tax

OK but I'll need to read the manifesto to understand what this means for people like me who rent out properties.

Reversing inheritance tax cuts and imposing VAT on private school fees

OK sounds good

Giving EU nationals living in UK the automatic right to stay

Sounds great

Reinstating 3,000 bus routes that have been cut


I'd like to see the details of this and how it's supposed to be funded. The idea of empty busses driving around at the public expense doesn't really appeal to me - surely there's a 21st century solution to this issue

Free broadband for all, delivered by part-nationalising BT

Absolutely terrifying

A £3bn plan to offer adults in England free access to retraining

Sounds great as long as the retraining actually enhances the economy rather than just being a boondoggle for training suppliers.

A pledge to reduce all primary school classes to fewer than 30 children

OK, but the arbitrary number smacks of cargo-cult culture

Free personal at-home care in England for over-65s most in need of it


It's the "most in need" that worries me. They won't want means testing so it's likely that everyone, no matter how wealthy, will receive it. Another case of me reading the manifesto in detail

A pledge to renew the Trident nuclear deterrent and spend at least 2% of GDP on defence

No, no, a million times no

Reducing the voting age to 16

Fine

 

[McHrozni]

Reinstating 3,000 bus routes that have been cut


I'd like to see the details of this and how it's supposed to be funded. The idea of empty busses driving around at the public expense doesn't really appeal to me - surely there's a 21st century solution to this issue

It may not be such a bad idea for the 21st century. Make public transportation free at point of delivery but jack up the price of driving a private car. Tallinn in Estonia did something like that, with moderate success.

McHrozni

 

[The Don]

It may not be such a bad idea for the 21st century. Make public transportation free at point of delivery but jack up the price of driving a private car. Tallinn in Estonia did something like that, with moderate success.

McHrozni

That may work in urban or extra-urban areas but in rural areas a couple of cheap or free buses a day aren't going to help much whereas higher costs of running a car will be damaging.

 

[Tolls]

A pledge to reduce all primary school classes to fewer than 30 children

OK, but the arbitrary number smacks of cargo-cult culture

It's not arbitrary.
It's (I believe) the current legal requirement, though it was broken a few years ago as numbers increased dramatically, and funding was squeezed.

Labour are essentially saying they'll provide funding to get classes back to where they were before the Tories broke everything.

And the 30 figure is itself not arbitrary, though it's not the whole picture by any means.
Dug this out from 2015.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ss-size-debate-asks-wrong-question-simplistic

 

[Vixen]

But true. Hard Line political ideologues often seem to prefer ideological purity to winning elections.
They have a a hard time dealing with the idea that a majority of the population might not be as militant as they are.

It's far more basic than that. People vote whichever way the DM and the SUN tell them to. They know no better.

 

[Vixen]

I've had a chance to have a quick look at the "headline" policies in the Labour manifesto. My take on them are as follows:

£75bn to build 150,000 new council and social homes a year, within five years

A laudable aim - isn't going to happen but it's better than the Tories who haven't built a single affordable home.

An immediate 5% pay rise for public sector workers, with year-on-year above-inflation pay rises to follow

Whilst I agree that public sector workers could use a pay rise after "Austerity", how do they propose to fund this ?

Introducing a "real living wage" of at least £10 an hour

Good

Reviewing the retirement age for people in hard manual jobs

As long as nothing comes of it, this'll be fine but otherwise it'll be a minefield of what is hard manual labour, whether it's age or sex discrimination, and whether or not it is affordable.

Introducing a second homes tax

OK but I'll need to read the manifesto to understand what this means for people like me who rent out properties.

Reversing inheritance tax cuts and imposing VAT on private school fees

OK sounds good

Giving EU nationals living in UK the automatic right to stay

Sounds great

Reinstating 3,000 bus routes that have been cut


I'd like to see the details of this and how it's supposed to be funded. The idea of empty busses driving around at the public expense doesn't really appeal to me - surely there's a 21st century solution to this issue

Free broadband for all, delivered by part-nationalising BT

Absolutely terrifying

A £3bn plan to offer adults in England free access to retraining

Sounds great as long as the retraining actually enhances the economy rather than just being a boondoggle for training suppliers.

A pledge to reduce all primary school classes to fewer than 30 children

OK, but the arbitrary number smacks of cargo-cult culture

Free personal at-home care in England for over-65s most in need of it


It's the "most in need" that worries me. They won't want means testing so it's likely that everyone, no matter how wealthy, will receive it. Another case of me reading the manifesto in detail

A pledge to renew the Trident nuclear deterrent and spend at least 2% of GDP on defence

No, no, a million times no

Reducing the voting age to 16

Fine

"Reversing inheritance tax cuts and imposing VAT on private school fees

OK sounds good"


And how will they do that as most public schools are classed as 'charities' (for example, Eton)? As for Inheritance tax, it'll just encourage people to find ways of avoiding them, as they do already. I worked in a firm of accountants who had specialist advisers who did exactly that, with fancy Trust Funds designed to ring fence you from inheritance tax for when you pop your clogs. Just 5% of the population have been subject to Inheritance Tax recently (obviously referring to probates)which shows people have become adept at making sure their assets are valued below £329K when it looks as though they are about to depart this mortal coil.

Had my parents died in the UK instead of in another EU country I would have suffered this. (Something like 50% tax over the threshold amount.)

Broadband: I was paying Virgin Media something like £60 pcm for a bundle of tv box, broadband and phoneline. Before I left and rang them up to cancel it, they hastily cut it down to £40 pcm (too late, chaps!). Here in Finland I pay €14 pcm and that is just for the cost of the 'wifi box' spread over three years (they didn't even ask me if I preferred to pay it upfront). Maybe there will be some other bill coming along soon. So, no, I don't think it is at all inconceivable Labour could offer 'free' broadband for all, although, I expect people will still have to pay for the hardware.

ETA actually the wifi box is circa €4 pcm, the rest is some kind of clapped up charge.

 

[The Don]

"Reversing inheritance tax cuts and imposing VAT on private school fees

OK sounds good"


And how will they do that as most public schools are classed as 'charities' (for example, Eton)?

You charge VAT on school fees regardless of the charitable status of the school

As for Inheritance tax, it'll just encourage people to find ways of avoiding them, as they do already. I worked in a firm of accountants who had specialist advisers who did exactly that, with fancy Trust Funds designed to ring fence you from inheritance tax for when you pop your clogs. Just 5% of the population have been subject to Inheritance Tax recently (obviously referring to probates)which shows people have become adept at making sure their assets are valued below £329K when it looks as though they are about to depart this mortal coil.

Had my parents died in the UK instead of in another EU country I would have suffered this. (Something like 50% tax over the threshold amount.)

Inheritance Tax is one of those (very few) things where this forum has caused to to fundamentally change my beliefs. I had thought that it was reasonable for parents to pass their wealth onto their descendants but forum members, in particular Darat, have convinced me that the ability to pass wealth intergenerationally in an unfettered manner is a major driver for inequality.

If this wealth transfer is tempered by taxation then inequality is reduced - moreso if that taxation is used effectively to further reduce inequality.

If an estate is worth several hundred thousand pounds then IMO the transfer of that wealth should be subject to tax.

My father's estate isn't worth anything like that, £40k in savings and a terraced house in a North East England town in need of complete refurbishment is it. I'm a comfortably-off fifty-something, why shouldn't I pay tax on suddenly receiving several hundred thousand pounds in assets ?

As for the argument about "keeping the family home for future generations", does this hold water in most cases ?

Broadband: I was paying Virgin Media something like £60 pcm for a bundle of tv box, broadband and phoneline. Before I left and rang them up to cancel it, they hastily cut it down to £40 pcm (too late, chaps!). Here in Finland I pay €14 pcm and that is just for the cost of the 'wifi box' spread over three years (they didn't even ask me if I preferred to pay it upfront). Maybe there will be some other bill coming along soon. So, no, I don't think it is at all inconceivable Labour could offer 'free' broadband for all, although, I expect people will still have to pay for the hardware.

ETA actually the wifi box is circa €4 pcm, the rest is some kind of clapped up charge.

My issue is that it's not a matter of providing routers, it's a matter of comprehensively upgrading the national telecommunications infrastructure. This is where OpenReach has completely dropped the ball.

For example we have fibre installed into the cabinet in the village. This was comparatively easy to do because it was replacing a single communications trunk from the exchange. The problem lies between the cabinet and the hundreds of homes served from the cabinet. The wiring is old, a mixture of materials, much of it doesn't work at all and newly-trained engineers simply cannot cope with it.

To deliver "free broadband", the government will have to replace hundreds of thousands of miles of cable in a project likely to cost tens of billions of pounds. Successive governments have demonstrated a complete inability to deliver large technology infrastructure projects like this. I expect that this will be the same - billions of pounds spent with no appreciable benefit to the end users.