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Truther responses to Millette WTC Dust paper

http://911debunkers.blogspot.cz/2012/11/a-2009-paper-claims-to-have-found.html
How can people be that stupid?
- Keep reading for a comprehensive explanation of the explosive paper by Harrit et al from 2009. Find out why no one has refuted it, why current attempts are failing and unlikely to produce a credible challenge, and why we need more dust, money and independent scientists...
Why can't they take this and get a Pulitzer? Why are newspapers not all over this? Because it is the work of nuts, insane paranoid conspiracy theorists, functional nuts.

Love it when nuts cite other nuts in their pursuit of truth. http://rememberbuilding7.org/silverstein-statement/

Never knew a taffy pull was proof of thermite explosions.

http://911debunkers.blogspot.com/

Idiotic web pages. What will they do when they figure out they are in Fantasyland? What will their kids see? Dumb parent is a paranoid conspiracy nut. These nuts are not experts and are incapable of debunking the debunkers, they are technically reporters who have failed and fallen for woo.
 
Well, it seems that John M. Talboo, Basile, Siggi and others are trying to promote more fundraising for their new, independent study of WTC red chips, e.g. by these nanothermite T-shirts:

picture.php


I'm not sure if truthers mentioned above sell these T-shirts; anyway, the shirt is available e.g. here here for 25 $.

As for this study planned by Basile, the interest of truthers seems to be quite weak, judging from the minimal response on 911Blogger and the slow increase of money on the account as well...
 
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Well, it seems that John M. Talboo, Basile, Siggi and others are trying to promote more fundraising for their new, independent study of WTC red chips, e.g. by these nanothermite T-shirts:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=966&pictureid=7121[/qimg]

I'm not sure if truthers mentioned above sell these T-shirts; anyway, the shirt is available e.g. here here for 25 $.

As for this study planned by Basile, the interest of truthers seems to be quite weak, judging from the minimal response on 911Blogger and the slow increase of money on the account as well...

Basile ignores my emails. Seems he isn't interested in receiving support from my side.

As for truthers, why should they bother? They define science as a process where you stop once someone gives you the result you need.
Actual facts, actual truth even, could be too inconvenient.
I mean, what IF Basile's independent lab tells them "sorry folks, all paint, no thermite" - we wouldn't want THAT to happen, would we? :p
 
Well, it seems that John M. Talboo, Basile, Siggi and others are trying to promote more fundraising for their new, independent study of WTC red chips, e.g. by these nanothermite T-shirts:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=966&pictureid=7121[/qimg]

I'm not sure if truthers mentioned above sell these T-shirts; anyway, the shirt is available e.g. here here for 25 $.

As for this study planned by Basile, the interest of truthers seems to be quite weak, judging from the minimal response on 911Blogger and the slow increase of money on the account as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEoIuqS6CNU&feature=youtube
 
Well, it seems that John M. Talboo, Basile, Siggi and others are trying to promote more fundraising for their new, independent study of WTC red chips, e.g. by these nanothermite T-shirts:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=966&pictureid=7121[/qimg]

I'm not sure if truthers mentioned above sell these T-shirts; anyway, the shirt is available e.g. here here for 25 $.

As for this study planned by Basile, the interest of truthers seems to be quite weak, judging from the minimal response on 911Blogger and the slow increase of money on the account as well...

If wonder if they realize that not even 1% of the population will get the reference. They don't even put the URL of a Truther website on the shirt!

They could probably sell more by just hawking them to chemistry students and skipping the "nano" part, which would be just as well, as real-world nanothermite produces less heat energy per mass unit than the stuff that's been made for over a century.
 
;)Not really a truther response, but just for the record (and since there is almost nothing new coming from truthers):

During last two years, I've written three articles on 9/11 conspiracies on my blog here. They are indeed written in Czech and Google translation is really not very helpful here (so do not try this).

The first article is rather general summary, as a kind of "introduction", ending with the translation of this funny text.
Btw, as the article says, the whole my interest in 9/11 conspiracies was launched by one of the councelors of our current Czech president Vaclav Klaus, named Petr Hajek. He seriously claimed in his book Smrt ve středu (A Death in Wednesday, released in 2009), that 911 was probably orchestrated/arranged by US authorities.

The second article basically summarizes "the state of the art" in nanothermite "matter" at the end of June 2011.

The third article written last August tries to consider if conspiracy theories can be regarded as a kind of scifi in some broader sense (since I am former Czech scifi writer:o). Anyway, factually, the whole progress in "nanothemite matter" from the middle of 2011 is shortly described in the article, including the study of Jim Millette and our effort on JREF.

Public echo of my blog or number of responses is not really startling, but I've not expected anything better:cool:


And Happy New Year for Everyone:cool:
 
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Hi, all:

About two weeks ago, Chris Mohr (and me and Oystein) received an e-mail from Siggi Super, one of the devoted nanotruthers and co-author of this controversial text.

Siggi wrote the whole e-mail in a really offensive/confronting fashion, like (a quote): “OK Chris Mohr, last chance to explain yourself… apologize for your mistakes and let them be officially known to your JREF buddies and everyone else… etc.“:cool:

And what’s actually the matter?

The e-mail deals again in greater detail with the complaint/petition of former EPA worker Cate Jenkins, available e.g. here. JREFers more interested in “nanothermite matter” perhaps remember that Jenkins basically accused some research groups that they intentionally distorted values of pH (acidity/alkalinity) of water extracts of WTC dust. And, that in some of these studies, James Millette was a co-author, hence he was also responsible for these incorrect measurements/data.

The objections of Cate Jenkins’ complaint were mentioned in Kevin Ryan’s article When Mohr is Less.
Chris discussed this topic e.g. here (starting with the post No. 3435) and wrote: “Even more amazing is Kevin Ryan’s attempt to attack the credibility of Dr. Millette by referencing the claims of Cate Jenkins, PhD, who has complained in court that the EPA purposely altered the pH readings of the WTC dust to bring them into an acceptable range for public health officials. But in Jenkins’s long complaint against the EPA, Jim Millette’s name barely comes up, except in four footnotes (not in the main text).“

Here, we should admit that Siggi has read the Jenkins complaint (very boring and very marginal document) more carefully than Chris and others in JREF. Jenkins really did “attack” two studies, in which Millette participated, namely ref. 52 and 65 (p. 11 and 12). More specifically, Jenkins wrote that in both studies, the samples (water extracts of WTC dust) were stored for unknown number of days in refrigerator prior pH measurements. According to Jenkins, this long storage of samples had to lead to partial neutralization of samples (lowering of pH) by reaction with acidic carbon dioxide from air. Jenkins also cited an article (ref. 61), in which such neutralization was really observed for water extracts of some concrete after several days. “Thus, by their own admission, the... research team was intentionally and deliberately neutralizing the samples before testing the pH,“ Jenkins wrote.

After some more reading of Jenkins‘ text and some of cited references, I would like to note:

1) Jenkins is very probably right that such neutralization can occur. But, both in ref. 61 and ref. 52 and 65, samples were stored in tightly closed vessels/test tubes, therefore the access of carbon dioxide was restricted/completely stopped in this way. Although it is not clear how CO2 could change pH in ref. 61 (there is no detailed discussion in the paper), researchers participating in papers 52 and 65 probably thought that pH cannot be changed by carbon dioxide in closed vessels, therefore samples can be stored for a long time before measurements.
Anyway, they basically described the used procedure, therefore they approach can by no means be denoted as any kind of fraud. But, the method itself (long storage) is still questionable, since according to this relevant EPA document (Table 3-2), samples for pH measurements should be “analyzed immediately”.

2) Papers 52 and 65 have many co-authors. Apparently, Jim Millette was responsible for microscopy, not for pH measurements. A question here perhaps is: is any co-author (expert in some method) fully responsible for any potential methodological or other error made by other co-authors (experts in other methods)?

In short, Jenkins’ complaint really contains some objections against studies in which J. Millette participated. But, simultaneously, Jenkins appraised Millette’s research group in her petition by words: “Both the Delta Group at the University of California at Davis, and MVA Scientific Consultants, Inc. are highly prestigious groups, having received numerous EPA grants for similar studies on fine particulates.“

Chris Mohr wrote in his e-mail to me: „Even if Jenkins found a possible methodological flaw in the EPA study, to jump from that discovery to a public proclamation of fraud is unacceptable to me." I fully agree with him.

The Jenkins‘ complaint is boring/marginal, and this my post is inevitably boring/marginal as well. Sorry for this. But as we would like to discuss all this conspiracy stuff as thoroughly as possible, even Siggi’s e-mails to Chris (and me and Oystein) perhaps deserves some more attention/debate here.:cool:
 
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Ivan,

I analyzed the Cate Jenkins rant here:

I doubt it too. There are four citations that mention Dr. Millette: references 52, 65, 89, and 138.

The text for reference 52 reads:

An EPA-funded research team headed by Rutgers University/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School found pH levels as high as 11.5 for one WTC dust sample collected outdoors on 9/16/01 or 9/17/01. 52 This is right at the 11.5 presumptive trigger level for tissue corrosivity. However, the other 2 samples tested had substantially lower pH levels of 9.2 and 9.3. All three of these pH results are questionable.

The study itself described taking the precaution to find outdoor samples that had been protected from rain, so as to reassure readers of their study that the original caustic WTC dust would not have been neutralized by contact with water and carbon dioxide from the air (a reaction called "carbonation"). However, if the study is read closely, before testing the samples for pH, the Rutgers team first added water to the samples, inverted the tubes several times, soaked them "several days" at room temperature, and then stored them in the refrigerator for an unknown time period before pH testing.53 Thus, by their own admission, the Rutgers research team was intentionally and deliberately neutralizing the samples before testing the pH.
So, they revealed a dangerous pH! Good for them. As for the accusation of "deliberately neutralizing the samples", the text for the pH of the samples reads (as cited by the Jenkins report):

The pH of an aqueous suspension of each sample was > 7; the Cortlandt Street sample had a pH of 11.5. Both the Cherry and Market Street samples had a pH of 9 (Table 1). ...
(Emphasis added. The full report is here: http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1289/ehp.02110703).

How is that deception? They indicate clearly that it's the pH of the aqueous suspension! They are not claiming that it's the original pH of the dust. It's raw scientific data not subject to any interpretation. The article also deals with how the Senate offered a twisted interpretation of the results. How is that Dr. Millette's fault?

Even more, I need to ask, is it even possible to test the pH of the dust by any other means? I am illiterate in this field but it seems to me that the measuring devices would not work properly if they're in contact with the dust, and thus the dust needs to be submerged in a fluid to take the measurement, just as they did. Maybe someone here can confirm or deny this.

Let's see the other three citations of Dr. Millette. As for reference 65:

There was a second EPA-funded WTC dust study headed by Rutgers University/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.65 This study including most of the same original researchers in the Rutgers outdoor WTC dust study, above. This time, the dust was collected from indoor locations near Ground Zero on 11/19/01. Not surprisingly, the highest reported pH level was only 11. The reason that this is no surprise is the fact that the researchers yet again soaked the samples in water for several days and stored them in a refrigerator for an indeterminate period before testing. See the discussions above on the first Rutgers study of WTC dust, showing that this
procedure pre-neutralizes the samples.
This time no quotation is given, but just as above, I doubt there is any reason to consider the results deceptive. I could not access the article from the given link (http://www.awma.org/journal/ShowAbstract.asp?Year=&PaperID=1214).

Reference 89 is exactly the same as reference 52. But the interesting part of it is that it's brought up in support of a higher pH than stated in another report!

The third false claim in the Landrigan et al. publication was that bulk samples of WTC dust only had a pH level as high 11.0. Again, the same 2 studies (McGee et al. and Lioy et al.) were cited as a basis for this claim. Because the McGee et al. study only reported a maximum pH level of 10.0, the Lioy et al. study would need to be the source for the claim that the highest pH was only 11. This also was a deliberate misrepresentation. The Lioy study89 found a pH level as high as 11.5 for one sample, which is over 3 times as alkaline as a pH of 11.0. Claiming that the pH was only 11.0 conveniently gets the pH level under the universally accepted trigger level for corrosivity to human tissues (pH 11.5). It would have been hard to overlook the pH level of 11.5 in the Lioy et al. publication, because it appeared in bold-faced type in the abstract, as well as being in the text of the article and also a table as well. This third falsification makes it clear that the other falsification of the pH levels for the smallest particles was no casual error in the Landrigan et al. paper.
Wow. From villain to hero. Yes, the very same reference, the very same pH level, is now praised for revealing the (purported) deception in another study (in which Dr. Millette did not participate, by the way).

Reference 138 is again the very same study of references 52 and 89, and the text mentioning it reads:

OSHA's laboratory test methods (either ICAP or AA) would simultaneously reveal a large range of metals, including calcium, sodium, and potassium.136, 137 OSHA cannot claim that it did not find calcium, sodium, or potassium. Calcium, sodium and potassium compounds have always being found and reported in WTC dust and air by all other researchers, government and private, both near and far outside the boundaries of the Ground Zero epicenter, using the same laboratory methods. See the references for 8 studies showing calcium, sodium, and potassium compounds in settled dusts, air, and the fire plume from the WTC.138
Once again, for villain to hero.

If anything, this speaks very well of the integrity of the Paul Lioy et al. team, including Dr. Millette, who indeed revealed a pH in the aqueous suspension that is right in the 11.5 level of dangerousness!
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8043964#post8043964


I made a mistake there, though, in that didn't realize that Jenkins complains about the timing of the analysis, and I mistakenly thought she complains about the analysis using an aqueous solution. But speaking of timing, the timeline for the citations by Jenkins are VERY significant, as I explain in a later post:

Sorry that I didn't go past that (poorly written) paragraph in the beginning, but I took a look at the rest later and indeed Jenkins complains about the time for analysis, citing a paper from... 2006! that shows that the pH of concrete drops over time even with the sample isolated from the atmosphere between measurements.

She also complains that a protocol released on November 2004 about waste and soil (?) analysis, which mentions realizing the measurement of pH «as soon as possible», wasn't followed by the Lioy team in 2002 or in May 2004 when they analyzed the WTC dust.

If anyone is to blame, it's the maker of the crystal balls used by the Lioy team.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8052992#post8052992

To sum up, Jenkins' references do not prove any wrongdoing by the Lioy et al team, as they are all from later dates to those of the analyses and therefore they might well be unaware of such effect.
 
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I don't know if Millette only contributed microscopy to the cited studies. If he did, he would not have handled the wet samples for pH testing, but would have prepared his own, dry samples.

Siggi doesn't know if Millette is at all aware of the alleged flaw of storing the wet sample for too long.

Jenkins doesn't know if the authors of the study stored the samples for long with the intention of committing fraud and deception. I'd think if they were aware that a long storage time invalidates their results, and they did it anyway with the conscious intention to deceive, then they would not have mentioned it in their report.


So what it boild down to is: Siggi (and Ryan) very much wants to paint Millette in an evil color, and makes up things he can't know.


I could look up examples of where co-authors of Harrit state they don't know details of how experiments were done by the others, and don't know detailed results. For example, Frank Legge probably never layed eyes, let alone hands, on a single red-gray chip, yet is featured as a co-author. So if someone alleged that fraud was committed by the authors by the employ of some invalid analytical detail, I wouldn't blame Legge for it and tarnish his credibility. It gives me pause to consider his involvement in this crap paper when he writes about other stuff in the future, BUT I am ready to take his words at face value, and evaluate them based on their merit.

In fact, I am even willing to accept any experimental data that Steven Jones, Jeff Farrer or Niels Harrit - or even Kevin Ryan - might produce in the future, even though I suspect that Harrit, Jones and Ryan are spinning their lore quite consciously. I figure if their data is fraudulent, this will reveal itself eventually.
(There is one great mysterie for me: All their data that I have seen so far seems genuine; I just suspect that some of it is sub-par quality, and, more importantly, that they must have selected the data they present with a clear bias, concealing contradictory data. And they are - deliberately? - sometimes unclear about provenience and method.)


If Siggi choses not to trust Millette at all based upon his past involvement in a study Siggi perceives as fraudulent, that is his prerogative. It does not rest on objjective criteria, and reveals double standards, but hey, he's a truther, what do you expect ;)
 
Thanks for your clarification, pgimeno, the timeline you revealed (papers with a participation of J. Millette and pH measurements therein are older than relevant EPA recommendation) seems to be really significant:cool:

Chris Mohr wrote me that he is indeed willing to correct somehow his claims that Jenkins did not accuse Millette at all. It is up to him, but he is perhaps waiting for some more comments of chemists (and qualified non-chemists like Oystein:cool:)...

(To be honest, I have no idea how carbon oxide can change pH of tightly closed samples, when this gas has no access to the samples. It seems to be simply nonsense. I suspect that the lowering of pH in samples described in ref. 61 after ca 3 days has nothing common with additional carbon dioxide and is caused by some "internal chemistry". Perhaps even Jenkins complaint contains some info in this regard, but I'm really not willing to read the whole text...)
 
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"Siggi Super" did indeed write to me and has accused me of maliciously lying about Kevin Ryan's attacks against Jim Millette. After a few email exchanges with Siggi, his nastiness was so intense I wished him well in his research and sent all future emails from him automatically to my spam box.

The questionable aspects of what I wrote can be found on this page:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212725&page=86
The three relevant posts are near the bottom of that page, and the "middle" post deals with the whole Cate Jenkins issue. If I accidentally misrepresented Kevin Ryan's claims against Millette in my defense of him, that can be corrected, obviously. Is Siggi correct in asserting that Cate Jenkins accuses Millette of fraud directly? My reading of Jenkins's complaint was that Millette was footnoted in a benign way four times but Millette himself was never directly accused by her of fraudulently misreporting the pH! Also, my memory is that she claimed that Millette reported a pH of 11.5 and the EPA reported it as 11.0.

There is one photo of Millette in here, with no reason given for its appearance. The Jenkins complaint and her attitude towards Millette in particular are hard to divine.

For example: in support of her allegations against the EPA, Cate Jenkins, in her discussion of WTC concrete, praises Millette and MVA as credible and prestigious (pages 33,34 of the report):

http://peer.org/docs/ny/9_8_11_PEER_...t_petition.pdf

“Another independent research group, MVA Scientific Consultants, Inc., also found that the smallest WTC dust particles (0.5 to 2.5 microns) contained 26.5% cement particles in samples about ½ mile away from Ground Zero.

“There are 2 credible studies that determined the concentration of concrete in the smallest WTC dust particles, and the concentrations of concrete in the larger particles.

“Both the Delta Group at the University of California at Davis, and MVA Scientific Consultants, Inc. are highly prestigious groups, having received numerous EPA grants for similar studies on fine particulates.

“MVA was a major contract laboratory to EPA in the evaluation of WTC dust after 9/11, but performed its study of the concrete content of WTC dust independently. Dr. Millette of MVA was an expert witness on behalf of the Department of Justice and EPA suit against W.R. Grace for the Libby, MT asbestos Superfund site.”

So Cate Jenkins calls Millette’s lab “highly prestigious” and uses the results of his studies as contrasting markers of reliability in her complaint against the EPA.

What Siggi Super picked up from the Jenkins complaint was that Millette was involved in a study which Jenkins considered fraudulent. This I did not pick up, since I looked only for direct references to Millette by name (and found four benign footnotes). Millette's role in that study was apparently not directly related to the part Jenkins considered fraudulent. The only time she directly refers to either Millette or his company, she is praising his integrity!

Go back to my original responses to Kevin Ryan near the bottom of this page: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212725&page=86

It's critically important that it be understood that I have deep questions about the credibility and scientific accuracy of Cate Jenkins's complaint against the EPA. I do not accept her conclusions as scientifically valid. Even with my limited understanding of chemistry, the complaint is written in a fashion that leaves much room for misunderstanding. You can read more in my original respone to Kevin Ryan's blog linked above. The whole subject is not of great interest to me, honestly. For now I'll just say that the paper leaves me justifiably confused about her attitude towards Jim Millette's scientific integrity... but her direct praise of him and his company leaves me convinced that even Jenkins had no real beef with Millette. The other critically important thing to remember is that when I posted these quotes from Jenkins praising Millette and his company onto Kevin Ryan's blog, he never retracted his attacks against Millette or even responded to the information about Jenkins praising Millette.
 
Thanks for your clarification, pgimeno, the timeline you revealed (papers with a participation of J. Millette and pH measurements therein are older than relevant EPA recommendation) seems to be really significant:cool:

...(and qualified non-chemists like Oystein:cool:)...

(To be honest, I have no idea how carbon oxide can change pH of tightly closed samples, when this gas has no access to the samples. It seems to be simply nonsense. I suspect that the lowering of pH in samples described in ref. 61 after ca 3 days has nothing common with additional carbon dioxide and is caused by some "internal chemistry". Perhaps even Jenkins complaint contains some info in this regard, but I'm really not willing to read the whole text...)

Yes, non-qualified.

My understanding is that you need to soak dust samples for some while before measuring pH makes sense, as some ions take a while to dissolve. At the same time, it is not entirely unreasonable that keeping a host of ions floating newly dissolved in the suspension could result in some of them reacting over time and thus potentially affecting the pH value.

So the question of when to measure pH seems to come down to an art, as the ""ideal" soak time probably depends on the particular material (mix) you have at hand.

Also I would like to point out that any pH value given should not be contrued as an absolute value for the acidity / alkalinity of the dry dust, as pH is a measure of the concentration of ions in aqueous solution, with concentration being (number of ions) / (volume of water). Since the amount of water that you suspend your dust sample in is always arbitrary (even if there is a norm and you follow it to the t, the norm itself specifies an arbitrary proportion, I think), it follows that the limit of dangerousness is also somewhat arbitrary, and the fact that some sample just barely made the threshold doesn't mean the dust is super duper dangerous in terms of alkalinity. Just like if you find trace amounts of some pollutant in food that just barely exceeds allowed limits, that is not likely to kill you or even affect your health adversely in any way, shape or form. So from that angle, I even doubt that the EPA, let alone the researchers, have a motive to put their academic and professional reputation on the line by committing fraud for a relatively minor cause. The far greater danger in the dust is the high presence of mineral fibers, including asbestos, which Lioy, Millette as well as several other groups (RJ Lee...), and the EPA, report extensively on.
 
Oystein: the sample (e.g. some dust) for pH measurements should be indeed weighed before extraction and the volume of water should be given, since both these values influence (or can influence) final pH (the concentration of protons in water in some equilibrium).

The thorough extraction of such solid material (although made mostly of very tiny solid particles) can take a lot of time. E.g., I regularly extract powders of my polymers (solid tiny particles) after synthesis using so-called Soxhlet extraction with various solvents, in order to remove catalyst, trapped inorganics and organic impurities. The recommended time is at least 24 hours for the efficient process, and this has been also proven by many analyses of my polymers.
Therefore, I consider several days of WTC extraction of WTC dust, described in ref. 52 and 65, as adequate.
The question perhaps is: what EPA recommendation really means, when recommending pH measurements of extracted samples "as soon as possible" or "immediate analysis"?

(Anyway, the storage of dust extracts for unknown number of days prior pH measurements, as described in papers 52 and 65, is not really exact description and is rather questionable.)
 
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Thanks for your clarification, pgimeno, the timeline you revealed (papers with a participation of J. Millette and pH measurements therein are older than relevant EPA recommendation) seems to be really significant:cool:
I don't really know that. I can only say that Jenkins' citation does not support her assertions, since the EPA revision that she cites is post-analyses. I don't know what the EPA recommendations said at the time the analyses were performed.

Still, I don't know if the WTC dust qualified by the EPA standards as either waste or soil. Jenkins and the truthers seem to assume it does.

Clearly, the 2006 experiment showing how pH varies was performed long after the analyses.
 
Also I would like to point out that any pH value given should not be contrued as an absolute value for the acidity / alkalinity of the dry dust, as pH is a measure of the concentration of ions in aqueous solution, with concentration being (number of ions) / (volume of water). Since the amount of water that you suspend your dust sample in is always arbitrary (even if there is a norm and you follow it to the t, the norm itself specifies an arbitrary proportion, I think), it follows that the limit of dangerousness is also somewhat arbitrary, and the fact that some sample just barely made the threshold doesn't mean the dust is super duper dangerous in terms of alkalinity.

I agree. It's more important to measure the total alkalinity of the sample. This can be determined by weighing the sample and titrating it in aqueous solution / suspension against a standard solution, generally 0.1 N HCl. A simple procedure - something for college freshman chemistry.

The far greater danger in the dust is the high presence of mineral fibers, including asbestos, which Lioy, Millette as well as several other groups (RJ Lee...), and the EPA, report extensively on.

Agreed.
 
I don't really know that. I can only say that Jenkins' citation does not support her assertions, since the EPA revision that she cites is post-analyses. I don't know what the EPA recommendations said at the time the analyses were performed.

Still, I don't know if the WTC dust qualified by the EPA standards as either waste or soil. Jenkins and the truthers seem to assume it does.

Clearly, the 2006 experiment showing how pH varies was performed long after the analyses.

Well, although Jenkins cited the EPA revision from 2004, as you noticed, this "norm" SW-846 has some older versions and many updates, which seem to be summarized here. Perhaps some older updates contain different recommendations, as for the storage of samples for pH measurements, perhaps not. I'm too lazy to check it.

Anyway, it seems to me that at in ref. 52 (and ref. 65, which used the same methods), researchers did not really follow EPA Test Method 9045D, named SOIL AND WASTE pH. (And were they really obliged to follow it, btw?).

A short comparison:

Ref. 52:
Dust was extracted to obtain concentration ca 30 mg/ml (ca 30 mg of dust was extracted with 1 ml of deionized water). Test tubes were inverted several times and sonicated, then left for several days, centrifuged and stored in the fridge, prepared for pH measurements.

EPA method 9045D: To 20 g of solids, 20 ml of reagent water is added, therefore recommended "concentration" of solids is much higher than in ref. 52 (ca 30x higher). Mixture is allowed to stand for 15 min or 1 hour, centrifuged or filtered if necessary and pH value of supernatant is measured. My feeling therefore is, that researchers in paper 52 did not follow Method 9045D at all and relied on their own method, perhaps because of some previous good/extensive experience.
Notably, Method 9045D says: "Samples with very low or very high pH may give incorrect readings on the meter. For samples with a true pH of >10, the measured pH may be incorrectly low." It basically supports my impression that pH measurements of highly alkaline samples can be erroneous for numerous/various reasons and Jenkins somehow calls for "impossible perfection" in her complaint:cool:
 
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Chris: Just for your question "Is Siggi correct in asserting that Cate Jenkins accuses Millette of fraud directly?"

Siggi cited in his e-mails this single sentence from Jenkins complaint on p. 16: "Even this reported pH range of 8.88 to 10 may be erroneous or falsified, due to the probable use of the same fraudulent pre-neutralization analytical techniques employed in the EPA-funded Rutgers team studies, described earlier." (EPA-funded Rutgers team studies are those papers 52 and 65, where Millette participated.)
This is only place in the complaint in which Jenkins directly used the word fraud or fraudulent in some connection with Millette.

But who cares that some Jenkins denoted papers 52 and 65 (pH measurements in them) as fraudulent in one sentence? It's just her problem. She did not bring any proof that some fraud was committed. Once again: the methodology of pH measurements is basically described in the papers (although perhaps not in sufficient detail, and method used is different from EPA Method 9045D), so any fraud is out of question:cool:
 
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Chris: Just for your question "Is Siggi correct in asserting that Cate Jenkins accuses Millette of fraud directly?"

Siggi cited in his e-mails this single sentence from Jenkins complaint on p. 16: "Even this reported pH range of 8.88 to 10 may be erroneous or falsified, due to the probable use of the same fraudulent pre-neutralization analytical techniques employed in the EPA-funded Rutgers team studies, described earlier." (EPA-funded Rutgers team studies are those papers 52 and 65, where Millette participated.)
This is only place in the complaint in which Jenkins directly used the word fraud or fraudulent in some connection with Millette.

But who cares that some Jenkins denoted papers 52 and 65 (pH measurements in them) as fraudulent in one sentence? It's just her problem. She did not bring any proof that some fraud was committed. Once again: the methodology of pH measurements is basically described in the papers (although perhaps not in sufficient detail, and method used is different from EPA Method 9045D), so any fraud is out of question:cool:
Agreed Ivan. And again, Jenkins's only direct mention of Millette by name in any of her writings is praise.
 

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