Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[JoeTheJuggler]

I think this is just the sort of case that should have been heard by a grand jury.

IIRC, around the same time the state appointed Corey as the special prosecutor, the county scheduled a grand jury. Corey expressed a desire to call off the grand jury. I think she finally filed charges before the date the grand jury was supposed to happen, so I assume they called it off because it was a done deal by that point. (Either that or the county simply deferred to the state.)

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Dropped the ball?

No, I think they've moved up to a full blown conspiracy theory with Wolfinger and Lee being on George's side and actively things covering up.

There were definitely a lot of people thinking that the police chief and others were buddies with Zimmerman and that's why Lee did what he did. The history certainly doesn't support that.

But Lee did screw up in claiming that he was prohibited from arresting Zimmerman without proof that refutes his assertion of self-defense. And he was certainly at least premature to claim that there was no evidence that threw the self-defense claim into doubt.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think it also rules out, as I've said, a reasonable use of "approached from behind".

Well, I guess that's on the writer of the article then.

By the way, I just read the recently released written statement Zimmerman gave police at the station. He doesn't say Martin approached him from behind at all in that account.

Emerged from the darkness. During the walk-through, he clearly indicates TM came from the T intersection which he had just passed. That puts TM approaching from behind him.

I'll have to read through it again, but I'm pretty sure his description of the number of times the dispatcher asked for his location doesn't agree with the transcript.

I also find it odd that when he was asked why the supposed captain of the Neighborhood Watch didn't know the street names that Zimmerman admitted to having a bad memory due to ADHD which he takes medicine for. That doesn't exactly make his account MORE reliable.

Now your not sure he's captain ? Or do you think being captain entails memorizing street names ? Or was that just derision ?

ETA: Something else I don't find very credible is the part where he claims Martin went for the gun which was visible while he had Zimmerman pinned to the ground, so Zimmerman unholstered the gun and shot him. At the very least, that description (which is key to the self-defense claim) raises quite a few questions.

What don't you find credible ? What questions does it raise ?

 

[Cylinder]

But Lee did screw up in claiming that he was prohibited from arresting Zimmerman without proof that refutes his assertion of self-defense.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.

A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force... As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

Snipped the law enforcement exemption.

You can only use the evidence the police had that night. Bringing Zimmerman to the station in handcuffs was probably illegal.

 

[GWCarver]

Doesn't anyone have a problem with the grand jury being circumvented out of the blue? I'm just amazed that people don't see it.

Oh, I see it, and a whole lot more. One can line up the events, the dates, the players, etc. and it is readily apparent. The more we find out about it, the more obvious it is becoming. Mark Nejame just broached the subject again a couple of days ago after initially bringing it up in April.

You just can't talk about it here, of all places.

 

[LTC8K6]

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.



Snipped the law enforcement exemption.

You can only use the evidence the police had that night. Bringing Zimmerman to the station in handcuffs was probably illegal.

I think it was illegal, that's why they tell that one officer to remove GZ's handcuffs when he/she gets to the sation to interview GZ.

 

[crimresearch]

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.



Snipped the law enforcement exemption.

You can only use the evidence the police had that night. Bringing Zimmerman to the station in handcuffs was probably illegal.

Putting handcuffs on someone under certain circumstances, such as securing a weapon, securing the scene, and transport, isn't always considered an arrest.

Several cases have been upheld in Terry-stop situations where officers used handcuffs to reduce safety concerns.
But these officers were able to explain why they believed handcuffs were reasonably necessary for their
protection or to secure the individual.
No such explanation was provided in this case. The use of handcuffs is usually ssociated with an arrest. To justify handcuffs in other situations, an officer will need to overcome that presumption by explaining to the court why handcuffs were necessary.

http://ago.mo.gov/publications/frontline/2000/042000fl.pdf

 

[LTC8K6]

I am still not seeing any strong evidence against GZ.

I see things that people would reasonably question, and they have questioned them.

I see things the police would question, and they did question them.

I agree with much of what posters here question as well. They are reasonable questions.

I don't see anything glaring that would make me think GZ is guilty of murdering TM.

I don't see where we needed to make a giant case out of the fact that GZ wasn't charged immediately. He shouldn't have been charged immediately.

I seem to have arrived right where I was from the start. The manslaughter charge was reasonable, and a GJ was reasonable.

I remain in the dark about the need to drop those and charge murder 2.

 

[Cylinder]

Putting handcuffs on someone under certain circumstances, such as securing a weapon, securing the scene, and transport, isn't always considered an arrest.

Clearly when he was armed until the point he was (or should have been) thouroghly searched wasn't illegal, so any statement at that time would be kosher. I don't know if it will be challenged, but the officers describe the transport first as "protective custody" then "investigative detention."

Obviously, the test for arrest is kind of a post-Terry were you actually free to leave and would a reasonabe person feel free to leave.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

But Lee did screw up in claiming that he was prohibited from arresting Zimmerman without proof that refutes his assertion of self-defense.

Either that, or he was acting with integrity instead of pandering, basing his actions on actual evidence, and actually following the law.

 

[crimresearch]

Clearly when he was armed until the point he was (or should have been) thouroghly searched wasn't illegal, so any statement at that time would be kosher. I don't know if it will be challenged, but the officers describe the transport first as "protective custody" then "investigative detention."

Obviously, the test for arrest is kind of a post-Terry were you actually free to leave and would a reasonabe person feel free to leave.

The test for arrest is the perception of 'not free to leave' with exceptions.

'For your safety as well as my own' is one stock expression of such an exception. 'Following policy' is another.

If you are talking about Miranda[/] that is a different set of tests and exceptions, over 'custody' and 'focus of suspicion'. And it doesn't rule out handcuffs either when 'going down to the station to tell us what happened'.

People have an interesting ability to produce weapons or become violent even after being 'thoroughly searched'. Since an officer driving a vehicle is clearly not in the best defensive position, there are SOPs about cuffing anyone before transport to the station. Following those as in Zimmerman's case wouldn't be an arrest.

 

[LTC8K6]

The case really was questionable against GZ, as Lee and Wolfinger thought, and it wasn't for lack of trying on the part of the PD.

 

[crimresearch]

Either that, or he was acting with integrity instead of pandering, basing his actions on actual evidence, and actually following the law.

But you don't understand!!!! This is different!!!!

Zimmerman had no right to Constitutional protections against forced blood samples, warrantless search of his car and home, arrest without PC, and official public announcement of his guilt without a trial, etc.

Can't you see how Zimmerman is different?

 

[Cylinder]

Wait - I thought RareTruth was planning a document dump party. Did I miss my invite???

 

[Noztradamus]

So George says he first saw Trayvon at 1440 Retreat View Circle. How did Trayvon get there? It doesn't seem like you can get there from the 7-11?

That's the 'cut-through' between buildings from the main road that is commonly used. There is no fence there.

Yeah this http://www.trulia.com/homes/Florida/Sanford/sold/25266255-1440-Retreat-View-Cir-Sanford-FL-32771 is the rear of the block with 1440 (taken from Oregon Ave) running SWtoNE in the NWcorner of Retreat@Twin Lakes http://justoneminute.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451b2aa69e2016303545adc970d-800wi.

Where many of us speculated Curious George jumped to the wrong conclusion when he saw Martin taking the short cut. It also confirms that George was on RVC. and followed Martin in his truck onto Twin Trees Lane. (And no, the NEN did not ask him to do that.)

 

[Cylinder]

Zimmerman confirms the witness claim that he checked the body after the fatal shot. That's at 15:00 in the reenactment. Those little tiny details are what's good for checking truth against, IMO. He seems off around 10' in the reenactment. The body wasn't that close to the tree.

 

[Rare Truth]

I think this one is the most damning:

http://gzlegalcase.com/documents/statements/audio_interview_0229_3.mp3

Interview with Serino and female officer, where they play the 911 tape for GZ, and ask him to explain each portion.

LOT"S of problems with his story there.

 

[Rare Truth]

Yeah this http://www.trulia.com/homes/Florida/Sanford/sold/25266255-1440-Retreat-View-Cir-Sanford-FL-32771 is the rear of the block with 1440 (taken from Oregon Ave) running SWtoNE in the NWcorner of Retreat@Twin Lakes http://justoneminute.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451b2aa69e2016303545adc970d-800wi.

Where many of us speculated Curious George jumped to the wrong conclusion when he saw Martin taking the short cut. It also confirms that George was on RVC. and followed Martin in his truck onto Twin Trees Lane. (And no, the NEN did not ask him to do that.)

And that address just happens to be...ta da! Frank Taaffe's residence.

What a co-inky-dink.

 

[EdG]

Bringing Zimmerman to the station in handcuffs was probably illegal.

No, it wasn't. Officers are allowed to detain a person while conducting an initial investigation. Zimmerman was not formally arrested the night of the shooting but was legally detained in handcuffs.

 

[Rare Truth]

Singleton: "U decided to get the address a fraction of a second after u said, 'oh ****! He's running!'? It sounds like you're running too."