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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Gender dysphoria seems to be the only mental illness that some in the medical profession prescribe treatment by lopping off healthy parts.
There are at least a few other ways in which gender dysphoria is (relatively) unique.

Firstly, any other mental health diagnosis can be treated without asking healthy people to play along with the self-perception of the patient. Third parties are not expected to pretend to see or hear the hallucinations of the schizophrenic patient, for example, or to affirm that an anorexic patient is corpulent. By contrast, it is considered impolite to utter aloud that Rachel McKinnon or Lia Thomas look oddly masculine in women’s racing kit; we are expected to affirm their identities even though they aren’t even in the room, presumably for the sake of upholding a general social norm in favor of affirmation which will benefit anyone we encounter who might need to be socially affirmed.

Secondly, the evidence base for gender affirming medicine (GAM) is uniquely weak, especially when diagnosing/treating adolescents and young adults. We can go all the way back to the introduction of "Gender Identity Disorder" in the DSM-III (1980) and watch the standard of care evolve from old school psychotherapy to modern GAM without coming across hardly any studies comparing the old treatment modalities to the new ones. Instead, the modern approach spread like an internet meme which was considered too good to fact check, while the old one was demonized as “conversion therapy” because it aimed to help people cope with their feelings and accept themselves without medicalization.

Thirdly—and most controversially—gender dysphoria is one of the only diagnoses which comes with an identity-based support community empowered by influential non-profit institutions (e.g. Stonewall, GLAAD, ACLU) which have a track record of getting results in the legislatures and/or the courts. This means that we cannot count on health experts to work these issues through in a scientific way without falling into the sort of conclusions-first thinking that we expect to see from activists.
 
This is where gender ideology leads.

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I really don't care whether these naked men, and/or the convicted rapist, are "really trans" or not. If you let it be known that men who want to go into women's changing rooms simply have to go there, and in the unlikely event that management challenge them say the magic words "I'm a woman", then a certain type of men will do that.

You know my views on this "really trans" thing. But leaving that aside, supposing these "genuine trans" men do actually exist, in these tiny numbers we're always being assured they are ("you don't need to worry, it's a tiny minority, you'll probably never encounter one"), is their wish to enter women-only spaces so worthy of being accommodated that women have to be subjected to this?

And this?

 
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Does anyone seriously deny that "hate and intolerance directed at transgender [people]" is an actual social problem?
 
Does anyone seriously deny that "hate and intolerance directed at transgender [people]" is an actual social problem?
Yes.

I think we have far more evidence of significant harm to women from the efforts of trans rights activists, both as a direct result of fiat self-ID in public policy, and in the chilling effect on women's spaces, than we have evidence that trans identified individuals are subject to significant amounts of hate or discrimination.

I think we have far more evidence of significant ideological capture of our medical, research, and judicial institutions, by trans rights activism, than we have evidence that trans identified individuals are subject to significant amounts of hate or discrimination. And I think we have far more evidence of abominable and horrific decisions made by those captured institutions, than we have evidence that transwomen are subject to significant amounts of hate or discrimination.

I think we have more evidence that the trans rights activism is significantly toxic, anti-social, and misogynistic, than we have evidence that trans identified are subject to significant amounts of hate or discrimination.

I think that trans rights activists and their useful idiots are attempting to traduce an entirely rational and pro-social hatred and intolerance of the policies they advocate, and the abominable results of those policies, into an disingenuous allegation of hate and intolerance directed at trans identified individuals.

I think the actual social problem here is trans rights activism, not transphobia.
 
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Yes.

I think we have far more evidence of significant harm to women from the efforts of trans rights activists, both as a direct result of fiat self-ID in public policy, and in the chilling effect on women's spaces, than we have evidence that trans identified individuals are subject to significant amounts of hate or discrimination.

I think we have far more evidence of significant ideological capture of our medical, research, and judicial institutions, by trans rights activism, than we have evidence that trans identified individuals are subject to significant amounts of hate or discrimination. And I think we have far more evidence of abominable and horrific decisions made by those captured institutions, than we have evidence that transwomen are subject to significant amounts of hate or discrimination.

I think we have more evidence that the trans rights activism is significantly toxic, anti-social, and misogynistic, than we have evidence that trans identified are subject to significant amounts of hate or discrimination.

I think that trans rights activists and their useful idiots are attempting to traduce an entirely rational and pro-social hatred and intolerance of the policies they advocate, and the abominable results of those policies, into an disingenuous allegation of hate and intolerance directed at trans identified individuals.

I think the actual social problem here is trans rights activism, not transphobia.

I saw that post and had typed the word "Yes", then saw there was another page. Thanks for saving me the bother.

Transgender people are the safest demographic in society. Transwomen are safer than not just other men but safer than women. Drill down into what's actually going on, and the "hate and intolerance" turns out to be a combination of offence being taken because someone correctly sees the person's sex and addresses them accordingly, and the sort of banter that wouldn't raise an eyebrow directed at another demographic in society.

The combination of thin skin and a massive sense of entitlement leads to people who go out in public pretty much asking either to be "misgendered" (that is, correctly sexed) in all good faith, or sniggered at, erupting into a towering fury of pure male rage at the smallest perceived slight.

Meanwhile women are on the receiving end of an absolute torrent of hate, rape and death threats, graphic descriptions of how the TRA in question fantasises about killing them, for having the audacity to try to maintain their boundaries against this onslaught of misogyny.

(A tranny outraged by the confirmation that he wasn't allowed to use female facilities went public declaring that he was going to seek asylum in Argentina, of all places, because he was no longer safe in Scotland. Someone checked up on records of actual violence against trans people in Scotland over the past ten years and discovered that the only record of one being injured in a reported crime was a butch lesbian who identified as a transman being a bit scratched in a drunken altercation with her girlfriend.)

No I do not think that "hate and intolerance directed against transgender people" is a social problem that we need to be worrying about. Maybe consider the hate and intolerance directed against women, why don't you.
 
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Does anyone seriously deny that "hate and intolerance directed at transgender [people]" is an actual social problem?
I might almost understand, if you were resorting to accusations of transphobia after your rational defense of TRA-advocated policies failed to change hearts and minds.

But it's not even that. Even when you concede that such policies are indefensible, and stipulate to their harmful effects, you still indulge in well-poisoning and handwringing about perceived "transphobia". It's truly bizarre.
 
I'm not digging the clip out now, but there's a clip of a BBC interview where two women were pretty vocal to the presenter about how sick and tired they were about being repeatedly asked, not about the feelings of the women who had lost sporting opportunities or had a man walk into their changing room while they were naked, but about the feelings of the poor men. After a couple of minutes he cut in and asked them whether they felt any empathy with the poor men! They rounded on him and said, now you're doing it! He said no, no, this is different, I just wanted to ask you if you felt any empathy for... The clip ended with them pretty much shouting him down.

Transgender people, particularly the men, are the most mollycoddled group in society. They have corporations bedecking themselves in their colours, insisting everyone puts pronouns in email signatures, and adopting policies of "use whichever facilities you find most comfortable". Even offering to pay for sex-change surgery. We cherish and value our trans colleagues. They have the police acting as their enforcement officers, knocking on the doors of anyone who has posted a tweet they didn't like. They have lawmakers bending over backwards to accommodate them. They have imposed their will on pretty much all of society, so that women can no longer expect to have not just single sex toilets and changing rooms, but not to have a man in the next bed when they're in hospital, or a man turn up to wash and dress them when they requested a female carer, or to be able to access rape counselling without a man insisting that he wants to be the one to listen to the details of what the rapist did. And I didn't even mention the prisons issue.

I'm way past caring about being called transphobic. The way the militant trans cult and their allies and enablers are acting, I do feel quite phobic actually. Except the fear and revulsion are not irrational, they're perfectly rational. And no, I'm not going to agree that a man dressed up like a complete chookie being addressed as "Sir", or alternatively being jeered at by a passing joker, is a significant problem for society.

Isn't it rational to be afraid of this?


These people are truly frightening in the flesh. I've seen it and heard it. This is the face of transgenderism as I know it, not Hayley Cropper.
 
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Does anyone seriously deny that "hate and intolerance directed at transgender [people]" is an actual social problem?
I think there definitely is hate and intolerance directed towards transgender people...but some of it is well deserved. For example, those protesters who call for death to TERFs and for JK Rowling to be hanged deserve every bit of intolerance and vitriol that comes their way.
Also to be considered is what transactivists consider to be hateful and intolerant is very different what is actually hateful and intolerant...
- Misgendering is not hateful or intolerant.
- Questioning their narrative is not hateful or intolerant.
- Advocating for banning them from female safe spaces is not hateful or intolerant.
- Recognizing biological reality is not hateful or intolerant
- Believing they don't belong in women's sport is not hateful or intolerant.
- Mocking them for their mostly pathetic, failed attempts to mimic actual women is not hateful or intolerant.
 
Sorry, that's not the beginning of the thread, just too late to edit.


For those of us who see this, it's at the core of the trans cult. The driving force for the aggression and the refusal to use any third space that's made available, and a very big reason why men should never be permitted in women's single-sex spaces.

The cult doesn't want this generally understood. It has produced reams of material debunking it so that that is the first thing people who investigate the issue find. Plenty reasons to turn away from something nice people don't want to think about, don't want to believe. Easier to shoot the messenger for the crime of transphobia. It's the motivation for the glorification of the "trans kid". If these (confused, pre-gay) children know their gender identity, it's not a sexual fetish, is it?

So long as one side is aware of all this and the other side is convinced that nearly all trans-identifying men are clones of Hayley Cropper, we'll go on talking past each other.
 
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I'm not digging the clip out now, but there's a clip of a BBC interview where two women were pretty vocal to the presenter about how sick and tired they were about being repeatedly asked, not about the feelings of the women who had lost sporting opportunities or had a man walk into their changing room while they were naked, but about the feelings of the poor men. After a couple of minutes he cut in and asked them whether they felt any empathy with the poor men! They rounded on him and said, now you're doing it! He said no, no, this is different, I just wanted to ask you if you felt any empathy for... The clip ended with them pretty much shouting him down.

I just came across that clip again, and it's actually all about football. It's longer than I remembered and he doubles down again and again. What about the poor men, they get so much psychological support from this, have you spoken to any of them to see how they feel? Sharron Davies is on fire.


He comes out with the "there are only 30 of them in the whole of England" lie, to which Sharon counters, there was only one of Lance Armstrong. The truth is that nobody knows how many men have been playing women's football in England, but it's certainly many hundreds. Just 30 of them bothered to register with the FA as being transgender and have their testosterone monitored. Most of them just called themselves Monica and rocked up to play. This is why the FA caved so quickly. They realised that having no record of the actual numbers was an insurance liability, as it was an unquantified risk.
 
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Have another nice juicy cherry.


I officially do not care what a tiny percentage of the entire global population these men represent, or even whether they are only a tiny proportion of trans-identifying men. They exist.

Nobody on the pro-trans side ever answers this. If you agree that men are permitted to use women's single-sex facilities, then you are compelling women to tolerate these men not just in the Ladies toilets but in changing rooms and as intimate carers for the disabled and elderly and sitting in on your rape crisis self-help group and OK he's a bit old for sports but there are younger ones. Own it.

Cross-dressing in men has long been recognised as a perversion. The creepy pervs are not going to be at the back of the queue when this behaviour is hailed as stunning and brave. They are going to take full advantage, and they are doing that. The existence of some who dress more conservatively and don't post wanking selfies from the women's toilets doesn't somehow erase their existence.
 
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Even when you concede that such policies are indefensible, and stipulate to their harmful effects, you still indulge in well-poisoning and handwringing about perceived "transphobia".
No wells have been poisoned, no hands have been wrung; I asked a simple question, and you responded with denialism despite obvious examples of hate and discrimination, such as the military service ban in the U.S.

(No mention was made of the word you put in quotation marks there, which makes me wonder if you meant to be addressing @Thermal.)

I think the actual social problem here is trans rights activism, not transphobia.
Only one of those two things can be a significant problem at any given time?

Is it worse than the hate and intolerance directed at TERFs?
No idea, but we've seen plenty of that as well.

Do you believe only one of those two things can be a significant problem at any given time? I would argue that if both sides of any given policy dispute are resorting to hate and intolerance then we're bound to have less time for well-reasoned arguments.
Advocating for banning them from female safe spaces is not hateful or intolerant.
It's not necessarily hateful, but it is literally a refusal to tolerate them in certain spaces.

Let's not shrink from calling a spade a spade here; we are both intolerant of males in female spaces.
 
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I don't think having mentally ill men serving in the military is a good idea. I don't think having men who are extremely disruptive to social cohesion when living in close quarters with other people in the military is a good idea. It may be discrimination, but it's justified discrimination. I fail to see the "hate".

We don't tolerate people being in places where they're not permitted to be in lots and lots of circumstances. Yes, I refuse to tolerate men in female single-sex spaces. I appreciate you're trying to spin this into emotive language to call this "intolerant" in a pejorative sense, but quit with the semantic passive-aggression, OK? They're men, they do not belong in female single-sex spaces.
 
I don't think having mentally ill men serving in the military is a good idea. I don't think having men who are extremely disruptive to social cohesion when living in close quarters with other people in the military is a good idea. It may be discrimination, but it's justified discrimination. I fail to see the "hate".
"Let's just use the Secretary of Defense Hegseth's own words: Transgender people lack warrior ethos, are liars, lack integrity, are not humble, are selfish and can't meet physical mental fitness requirements."

 
Remember your MA, folks, and keep to the topic and avoid personalisation. The thread is back from moderation and I've just had to send 16 posts to AAH. Be civil and polite, or it will be back on moderation again.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin
 
Have another nice juicy cherry.


I officially do not care what a tiny percentage of the entire global population these men represent, or even whether they are only a tiny proportion of trans-identifying men. They exist.

Nobody on the pro-trans side ever answers this. If you agree that men are permitted to use women's single-sex facilities, then you are compelling women to tolerate these men not just in the Ladies toilets but in changing rooms and as intimate carers for the disabled and elderly and sitting in on your rape crisis self-help group and OK he's a bit old for sports but there are younger ones. Own it.

Cross-dressing in men has long been recognised as a perversion. The creepy pervs are not going to be at the back of the queue when this behaviour is hailed as stunning and brave. They are going to take full advantage, and they are doing that. The existence of some who dress more conservatively and don't post wanking selfies from the women's toilets doesn't somehow erase their existence.
Yep, he definitely mentally ill.
 

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