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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

d4m10n said:
So long as we retain the BFOQWP carveout for jobs that reasonably require prospective hires to be and/or appear female or male, this sounds fine.

I really wonder whether we have anyone left willing to argue that "gender identity" needs to be written into the law at any level.
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I'm willing to argue exactly that. Gender identity needs to be written into anti discrimination law.
 
Rolfe said:
That was the name. I have a strong suspicion that race was rigged though. AFAIR it happened during the time that Thomas was strongly suspected to be throwing races. He won one by an absolutely insane margin, having obviously put in his maximum effort, and there was a lot of talk about unfairness. Immediately after that his performance took a bit of a nosedive and people who understand swimming were saying it looked as if he was barely kicking his legs. I'm not at all sure Henig could have beaten him if he'd been going all in. It seemed to be a bit of a stunt.
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Maaaaybe, but apparently Henig got a PB in that race that surpassed any PB that Thomas had got while competing as a woman in that particular event.
 
angrysoba said:
Right, I get that. But the point is that in an open category where both transmen and transwomen would be able to compete, there will no doubt be transmen who would be open to competing. The claim that they would not because they would not want to compete against transwomen, on the grounds that they are men, seems to lack a theory of mind. After all, transmen are largely down with the idea that trans people can self-ID so won’t refuse on the grounds that their opponents are biological men. Besides, if it is also true that no transwomen will enter the open categories because all they really want to do is beat women in the women categories then it contradicts the argument that transmen will be competing against transwomen.

And if, as it may be claimed, that it is a case of “revealed preferences” (i.e transmen say they are men but they won’t compete against actual biological men which ultimately they know transwomen are) then that would also be contradicted by real life examples of transmen nonetheless competing in some men’s sports anyway.
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Trans-identifying men do not want to compete in an open category because they want to be affirmed as female and allowed to do anything a female person is allowed to do. There must be no doors closed to them. (Look at the hate directed to Beira's Place, which was set up to cater to women only because the existing women's service also catered for trans-identifying men. That service is still there, and still available, but Beira's Place has been excoriated for excluding all males.) Also, they're less likely to win.

Trans-identifying females are mainly getting on fine competing in the women's events, so why would they shift to an event where they'd have to compete against males?
 
smartcooky said:
Its not just in times either.

The US Women's National Soccer team, essentially, a team chosen from the best 30 or so women's soccer players in the USA, who were Women's World Champions at the time, were beaten 5-2 by a Dallas under-15 schoolboy team

The Australian Women's National soccer team was beaten 7-0 by the Newcastle Jets under-15 boys.

If 15 year old males, who are not even fully phyically mature, can give the best women players ass-whoopings like these, it shows conclusively that male speed, strength and power gives them a huge advantage over women in any sport where those attributes are required, and that includes pretty much all olympic sports, and any ball sports, team or invididual.

A number of people arguing against all this will often bring up the famous Bobby Riggs v Billie Jean King tennis match, and poit out that the female player, Billie Jean King won. There are three things however, that these arguers will always neglect to tell you.
1. Bobby Riggs was a 55 year old, washed up player, while Billie Jean King was 29, in her prime and at the top of her game.
2. The match was played under men's rules (best three of five sets) King won 6-4, 6-3, 6-3 - closer than many expected.
3. Riggs had trounced Margaret Court earlier in the year 6-2, 6-1 and Court was 31, also at the top of her game, the Australian Open and French Open champion at the time, and went on to win the US Open later in the year.

And no, contrary to what someone claimed earlier, I am not arguing that all men can beat all women all the time. That would be ridiculous. I'm still a reasonably good tennis player for my age (nearly 70) but I would be blasted off the court by Serena Williams - I'd be lucky to even win a point. Hell I even struggle to beat a lady friend of mine, who still plays in the local club circuit, and is eight years younger than me!
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I saw a conversation between men on Twitter which might be relevant here. It's only anecdotal, but there may be something in it. They all said that when they are play-fighting (wrestling) with their wives/girlfriends they always win, but only just. They dial back their strength until it's only just enough to overpower the woman. They never, ever exert all the power they could against her. They were speculating that this is such a common practice that many women may not really appreciate how much stronger men really are. Until a malevolent one decides to show her.
 
Rolfe said:
Being plug-ugly isn't a protected characteristic as far as I know. It's certainly allowable in some contexts such as modelling.
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We were talking about whether it's okay to use "appear female" as a job criterion.

My take is that sometimes it really is okay (BFOQ) regardless of gender identity and sex at birth.
 
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Rolfe said:
I saw a conversation between men on Twitter which might be relevant here. It's only anecdotal, but there may be something in it. They all said that when they are play-fighting (wrestling) with their wives/girlfriends they always win, but only just. They dial back their strength until it's only just enough to overpower the woman. They never, ever exert all the power they could against her.
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Well, yeah. And that's not specific to women or even physical contests, that's a general dynamics of play. You do the same thing with kids too, and not just wrestling. It's not fun for the other party if you just wipe the floor with them every time. Hell, even rats understand the concept. When large and small rats wrestle, the larger rats will let the smaller rats win occasionally, because if they don't, the smaller rats will stop playing with them, and that's no fun for the larger rat.
Rolfe said:
They were speculating that this is such a common practice that many women may not really appreciate how much stronger men really are. Until a malevolent one decides to show her.
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That's plausible. But a lot of women don't engage in such play with men at all. They still end up clueless, because in their day to day lives, there aren't usually a lot of things that they can't do that men can because of the strength difference. And with those few things, it's usually just a binary conception of "I can't do that, he can", without any real grasp of how large the differential is. Not a lot of women do weightlifting, where you're faced with the contrast rather quantitatively. I'm squatting 275 lbs next to my wife squatting 35 lbs, and she can see the difference rather more obviously than she probably could before I was taking her to the gym.
 
For those of you wondering what the hell Damion is talking about, a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification (BFOQ) is a narrow exception to the US law prohibiting discrimination in employment. It can be justified by things like authenticity in entertainment, such as hiring a male actor to play a male role. It can also be justified by legitimate safety concerns, such as mandatory retirement ages for airline pilots.

In case you're wondering, it cannot be used to excuse hiring based on stereotypes or customer preferences. And yes, Hooters argues that its waitresses are entertainers, with mixed results across the various jurisdictions where the Hooters hiring practice has been challenged in court.
 
d4m10n said:
We were talking about whether it's okay to use "appear female" as a job criterion.

My take is that sometimes it really is okay (BFOQ) regardless of gender identity and sex at birth.
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I'll leave that decision to those in the USA who have to make it. It's not something that really concerns me. I think I would be uncomfortable if the "woman" who was trying to sell me makeup or underwear was actually a man though.
 
This is something that trans rights activists fight tooth and nail against acknowledging, from claiming that it's all an invented slander, to the familiar "cherrypicking" deflection. But it's a serious issue. Allowing these men into women's spaces is forcing women to participate against their will in these men's immersive erotic fantasy role-play. (Warning: the video in the subtweet, which is rather up-front about the topic, is pretty strong stuff.)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1917977584563818549

"Not all transwomen!" will be the riposte. Probably not, but also probably more than is generally realised, because it is far from impossible to be enjoying these erotic fantasies while acting the part of the demure, harmless, just-want-to-pee character. We must be able to say this, to bring it to the attention of people who want women just to move over and be kind, and have our objections to being cast as extras in these men's internal porn-movies taken seriously.
 
Hello, new to the thread. I know that the story I am linking to was brought up here, in this thread, but I don't recall seeing much discussion about it.

lakecountygazette.com

Deerfield middle school administrators force teen girls to change in front of boy in school locker room - Lake County Gazette

Deerfield School District 109 administrators forced teen girls at Shepard Middle School to change in front of a boy in the school locker room.
lakecountygazette.com

I don't ordinarily join in the transgender discussion, but this story urged me to participate, because if it's true, it is really, deeply disturbing. If the story is not true, my apologies; but if true, then I believe it ought to be discussed.

My opinion is that these women, if indeed they did it, should not only be fired, but criminally charged and prosecuted. I'm really interested in finding out how such a thing could be defended.

I looked around to see if this story was debunked, but haven't found evidence of that. Please believe me, if it is the case that this is not true, or has been unduly exaggerated, I'd be greatly relieved.
 
Rolfe said:
I'll leave that decision to those in the USA who have to make it. It's not something that really concerns me. I think I would be uncomfortable if the "woman" who was trying to sell me makeup or underwear was actually a man though.
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I've never yet seen an underwear salesperson working on commission, but then I'm not up to speed on the lingerie.
 
theprestige said:
For those of you wondering what the hell Damion is talking about, a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification (BFOQ) is a narrow exception to the US law prohibiting discrimination in employment. It can be justified by things like authenticity in entertainment, such as hiring a male actor to play a male role. It can also be justified by legitimate safety concerns, such as mandatory retirement ages for airline pilots.

In case you're wondering, it cannot be used to excuse hiring based on stereotypes or customer preferences. And yes, Hooters argues that its waitresses are entertainers, with mixed results across the various jurisdictions where the Hooters hiring practice has been challenged in court.
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In many of those cases, organizations like Hooters, Show Me's and Bombshells, generally don't advertise for server staff at all. Instead, they head-hunt them from other establishments, or offer employment to people who are looking for work. That way, they avoid running into Title VII issues.
 
WilliamAB said:
Hello, new to the thread. I know that the story I am linking to was brought up here, in this thread, but I don't recall seeing much discussion about it.

lakecountygazette.com

Deerfield middle school administrators force teen girls to change in front of boy in school locker room - Lake County Gazette

Deerfield School District 109 administrators forced teen girls at Shepard Middle School to change in front of a boy in the school locker room.
lakecountygazette.com

I don't ordinarily join in the transgender discussion, but this story urged me to participate, because if it's true, it is really, deeply disturbing. If the story is not true, my apologies; but if true, then I believe it ought to be discussed.

My opinion is that these women, if indeed they did it, should not only be fired, but criminally charged and prosecuted. I'm really interested in finding out how such a thing could be defended.

I looked around to see if this story was debunked, but haven't found evidence of that. Please believe me, if it is the case that this is not true, or has been unduly exaggerated, I'd be greatly relieved.
Click to expand...

Hello William, and welcome. I have seen some discussion about this, but when it was brought up there were a few TRA types who insisted it wasn't verified and was probably made up. However this is their usual tactic when presented with something that cuts across their agenda, so it doesn't cut much ice with me. Nevertheless I don't know for sure one way or another, and not being in the USA I have no real way to find out.

I don't discount it as impossible though. It's clear that some adults who take the trans side in this become absolute zealots, bullying and shaming and threatening anyone who resists playing along with the fantasy.
 
I think liability insurance is going to be a big driver of change in organizations running physical contact sports. There is a real probability that the FA made their decision to ban transwomen from competing in their women's divisions, not because of some ideological change of heart, but because they realized that, after the SCOTUK ruling, if a transwoman ended up seriously injuring a female player in a match or during training, their insurance would be null and void - the insurance company would refuse to cover any costs involved because the FA was not complying with the law. They would be exposed to big fat lawsuit, and very likely be held liable.

Note that the ECB (England & Wales Cricket Board) has been is reconsidering their transgender policies for the last few days, and is expected to make an announcement tomorrow (Friday UK time).
 
smartcooky said:
I think liability insurance is going to be a big driver of change in organizations running physical contact sports. There is a real probability that the FA made their decision to ban transwomen from competing in their women's divisions, not because of some ideological change of heart, but because they realized that, after the SCOTUK ruling, if a transwoman ended up seriously injuring a female player in a match or during training, their insurance would be null and void - the insurance company would refuse to cover any costs involved because the FA was not complying with the law. They would be exposed to big fat lawsuit, and very likely be held liable.

Note that the ECB (England & Wales Cricket Board) has been is reconsidering their transgender policies for the last few days, and is expected to make an announcement tomorrow (Friday UK time).
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Are organizations like the FA required by law to implement sex segregation? If not, then their insurance should be fine.
 
Rolfe said:
That web site is quite old. The term, coiled as a slur, was gradually adopted by women. It has acquired grammar. "I'm going out to do some terfing." The plural may be terfs, but when organised, it's terven. I think we'll keep it.
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At this point, even those of us who are nowhere near radical feminists have adopted it as a point of honor. For all intents, it just means "I know how actual biology works".

Anyway, the point wasn't the name of the website, it was the content. The point is the oodles and oodles of males making extremely hateful and violent statements...
Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP> Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.
 
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WilliamAB said:
Hello, new to the thread. I know that the story I am linking to was brought up here, in this thread, but I don't recall seeing much discussion about it.

lakecountygazette.com

Deerfield middle school administrators force teen girls to change in front of boy in school locker room - Lake County Gazette

Deerfield School District 109 administrators forced teen girls at Shepard Middle School to change in front of a boy in the school locker room.
lakecountygazette.com

I don't ordinarily join in the transgender discussion, but this story urged me to participate, because if it's true, it is really, deeply disturbing. If the story is not true, my apologies; but if true, then I believe it ought to be discussed.

My opinion is that these women, if indeed they did it, should not only be fired, but criminally charged and prosecuted. I'm really interested in finding out how such a thing could be defended.

I looked around to see if this story was debunked, but haven't found evidence of that. Please believe me, if it is the case that this is not true, or has been unduly exaggerated, I'd be greatly relieved.
Click to expand...
Here's a confirmation on the Independent Women's Forum. The IWF is conservative, but generally factual.
 
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