Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[Trausti]

To be fair, TERF island is rapidly descending into "developing world" status. If I were you, I'd lean heavier on the other European powers that aren't collapsing inward on themselves as better examples of responsible, sober governance.

How is it responsible to cause irrevocable harm to a child rather than leave the child alone to pass through the phases we all did as adolescents?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Respectfully, I don't think "all cases of GID in childhood and adolescence" is the reference population here, when we're trying to compare to those patients who were eventually referred to the endocrinologists from centres of excellence in paediatric gender medicine such as GIDS Tavistock. While some practitioners played it a bit fast and loose in terms of screening, the endocrine net wasn't cast over 100% of children presenting with at least some symptoms of GID.

Yeah... no. It's well established that if left untreated, about 80% of the cases of childhood and early pubertal dysphoria will resolve on their own with no negative long term consequences.

It's also been more recently established that social-> hormonal -> surgical intervention does NOT result in improved mental health status over the long term.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Edited by Agatha: 

Removed for a breach of rule 11

 

[Emily's Cat]

To be fair, TERF island is rapidly descending into "developing world" status. If I were you, I'd lean heavier on the other European powers that aren't collapsing inward on themselves as better examples of responsible, sober governance.

Yep, I can totally see how Sweden and Finland are just total *********.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yep, I can totally see how Sweden and Finland are just total *********.

Yeah, that's my point. Much more flattering example than the island where a majority of people decided they'd rather be poor than have to see a Romanian or Pole in public. Lean harder on those nordic examples, free PR tip.

 

[d4m10n]

Yeah... no. It's well established that if left untreated, about 80% of the cases of childhood and early pubertal dysphoria will resolve on their own with no negative long term consequences.

Which leaves open the question of how well folks like Tavistock did at focusing their medical interventions on the remaining 20%. What we need here is a proper RCT, where patients are carefully screened into a treatment group and then randomly assigned to one treatment pathway or another. Patients who are likely to resolve on their own should be left out of the entire process.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Which leaves open the question of how well folks like Tavistock did at focusing their efforts on the remaining 20%.

They didn't. That's the problem. They didn't focus on the other 20% - they accepted for treatment all 100% that were referred to them. Not all were set on a medicalized pathway... but not for lack of desire to do so. Those who didn't get medicalized avoided it due to lack of resources. Had there been enough providers at Tavistock, they would have treated them all with interventionary affirmation.

By the way, if you look into the watchful waiting approach, one of the fundamental elements is that there is no way to know which child will persist and which will not. There's no way to identify the 20% that will persist and disambiguate them from the 80% that will desist. All you can do is wait and watch (hey fancy that coinkidink of a name) to see which ones continue to persist post puberty.

 

[d4m10n]

They didn't. That's the problem. They didn't focus on the other 20% - they accepted for treatment all 100% that were referred to them. Not all were set on a medicalized pathway... but not for lack of desire to do so.

What fraction should have been referred to the endocrine pathway? What fraction of those actually were? I've read Hannah Barnes book and these answers still prove elusive.



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[Emily's Cat]

What fraction should have been referred to the endocrine pathway? What fraction of those actually were? I've read Hannah Barnes book and these answers still prove elusive.

There is no way to know until after they have completely puberty.

For any child who has not completely puberty, treating them with cross sex hormones represents an 80% chance of being a misdiagnosis.

 

[d4m10n]

For any child who has not completely puberty, treating them with cross sex hormones represents an 80% chance of being a misdiagnosis.

Assuming zero screening and totally random assignment to the treatment group.



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[Matthew Best]

Yeah, that's my point. Much more flattering example than the island where a majority of people decided they'd rather be poor than have to see a Romanian or Pole in public. Lean harder on those nordic examples, free PR tip.

This didn't happen, oh inhabitant of Trumpistan.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Assuming zero screening and totally random assignment to the treatment group.

I think you're missing the point - there is no way to tell which kids will persist and which will not. There is no screening that can distinguish them.

What screening do you think should be done in order to identify the 20% of young people expressing dysphoria who will persist beyond puberty?

 

[Trausti]

Are there any other irrevocable procedures that we allow on adolescents without an objective basis for “treatment”?

 

[d4m10n]

What screening do you think should be done in order to identify the 20% of young people expressing dysphoria who will persist beyond puberty?

We know what screening was actually done under the ordinary standard of care, the question is how well it worked to identify those who would persist rather than desist.

 

[Matthew Best]

We know what screening was actually done under the ordinary standard of care,

We do? What screening did Dr Helen Webberley do, when she treated an 11-year-old with puberty blockers, and a 12-year-old with testosterone?

 

[d4m10n]

If Webberly came to your attention as an outstanding example of gender affirmation with minimal medical gatekeeping, there is a good chance they weren't following the ordinary standard of care linked above.

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[Ziggurat]

If Webberly came to your attention as an outstanding example of gender affirmation with minimal medical gatekeeping, there is a good chance they weren't following the ordinary standard of care linked above.

Sure. But there seem to be an awful lot of providers who fail in practice to meet the stated standards of care. At this point I would be more amazed to find practitioners that rigorously adhered to stated standards.

Plus, to follow up on EC's point, nobody knows how to screen for desistance. Certain standards such as trans identity having persisted long term are intended to help screen, but nobody knows how effective any of these factors actually are as screening tools, or what the error rates are. The entire field is flying blind.

Moreover, treatment itself may prevent desistance. If we have a child who would desist in the absence of medical transition, but would not desist or detransition if medically transitioned, is it ethical to medically transition them? I would say no, it's not, but I bet a lot of trans activists would say it is.

 

[Horhang]

Take Chloe Cole's own example of taking years of slowly escalating trans affirming care, by no means rushed. Diagnosed with gender dysphoria at 9, socially transitions at 12, begins puberty blockers and hormone treatment at 13, and surgery at 15. hardly a gallop.

I do not believe the highlighted is correct. Based on the interviews I have seen she began social transition at 10-11. Came out to her parents and was then taken to a therapist and diagnosed at 11 and on puberty blockers at 12, then on testosterone a month later. The gallop is a few months from first visit to a therapist to hormone blockers to testosterone.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I do not believe the highlighted is correct. Based on the interviews I have seen she began social transition at 10-11. Came out to her parents and was then taken to a therapist and diagnosed at 11 and on puberty blockers at 12, then on testosterone a month later. The gallop is a few months from first visit to a therapist to hormone blockers to testosterone.

I imagine a detailed timeline is probably outlined in her complaint, but it's long and I'm not reading all that. 9 is what Wikipedia lists.

 

[Darat]

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...-gibson-speaks-out_n_649d7449e4b028e6472f1700

.... He’s The Trans Son Of An Anti-Trans Influencer. It’s His Turn To Speak.
Renton Sinclair’s mother is a former Miss Illinois who wants to force trans people out of public life. That’s exactly what makes her a rising star in MAGA World....

....“It’s demonic,” Tania said about the existence of transgender people. “My daughter is in there, my daughter who was born and prophesied over and given the name from God is in there, but the Devil has taken and twisted her mind…”...

I suppose it's a view.