Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[Emily's Cat]

As long as we're doing made up examples, here are a few:

"An unidentified assailant fled the scene. He is considered armed and dangerous."

"The pelvis of this skeleton indicates that he was male."

"Beth never met her father, always assumed he was a deadbeat."

In such cases as these, we use masculine pronouns because we believe the subject is male, even though we have little to no specific information about their gender role or identity.

Technically, we're only using belief in the first scenario, where it is possible that the assailant was a particularly buff and masculine appearing female.

In the other two, it's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of observable reality. The pelvis is observed to be that of a male, and the pronoun chosen is based on sex. In the third case... well... I infer that Beth is aware of their own mother, therefore the father is required by evolution to be male.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I recently discussed this with my teen daughter....so far no males in her locker room (though it is legally allowed).

I asked her if she heard about people who wanted to be a clown or cats. I was totally joking about it but she said, seriously...
"We have those at my school"
Wait, what? Really?
"Yes Mom, they identify as all sorts of things. They are sort of the weird kids. None of my friends I hang out with but some in class. Lots in the drama club like Anne from 8th grade."
Oh so Anne is now a cat?
"No mom, ugh, Anne is now Steve".
She chose the name Steve of all the names?
"That was the name she told us so that is what we call her now. Steve."
She still has cool layered clothes and the green hair?
"Yes"
So does that mean she uses the boys bathroom now?
"No, the actual boys are in there. Don't be dumb mom."

 

[Sherkeu]

Agree completely - it's become a bit of a samba-tapdancing-square dance with some carnival mirrors and hidden doors involved.

As far as I can glean from all sides using these dimorphic words in different ways, gender and sex are still the same thing as they always were: male or female.

However, if you want to say someone is trans, the terminology should be "gender expression" which give people some latitude as to how they want to appear within the social norms of where they live.

We know, scientifically, you cannot change the sex that you are born with in terms of xx or xy (excluding the very rare cases where the chromosomes are abnormal- which also cannot change), or redefine biology, despite what some professors twist themselves into knots to try to do.
They fail at every attempt. Biological reality is still reality and using words to try to warp it as some sort of social justice only lasts as long as you can dupe people into believing it. Eventually, reality prevails.

So, let us celebrate gender expression as a socially acceptable term. I think it is, for sure. But I do not have to see these persons as biological women. That crosses the line for me. They are not and never will be, even if I decide to treat them "as if" in a social situation.

ETA: i do notice....and i think many of my fellow females here also notice, that many many many more males here at ISF are ok with trans persons crossing the female line with male bodies and are happy to chastise us for not going along with it. It's as if they dont know what it is to be female!!!

 

[Emily's Cat]

But being goth or emo or punk rock, was not. It is mostly a phase. If you could get hormones back then to be MORE that way, whichever expression they had, I'm sure some people I knew would have taken them....and insisted they'd want it FOREVER!! They were legit dedicated and 'true' to their group. But we all know kids grow out of things like that.

Can you imagine doctors prescribing depressants to teens to affirm their emo identity?

 

[Emily's Cat]

When I said "primum non nocere" forms part of the Hippocratic Oath that all doctors swear to. It means "First, do no harm", this is what I meant. Someone asked me what harm would be done by prescribing puberty blockers to a pre-teen... well the above quoted is an on-point example.

The harm from gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonists has been provided multiple times in the several incarnations of this thread.

Each time it is met with silence and is ignored. Then several months later the same question of "what's the harm?" gets reintroduced as a fringe reset.

 

[Emily's Cat]

At the local watering hole this Saturday, conversation between barflies and bartender turned towards the attitude - shared by most at the bar - that it was perfectly okay to refer to niblings and cousins and friends of friends by whichever name one thought suited them best, regardless of their expressed preferences.

"My nephew hates it when I call him by his given name, rather than his preferred nickname, but that's how I know him, and his disgruntlement amuses me."

"I always introduce my friend's girlfriend by her nickname, even though she prefers to go by her given name these days, because I still think of her by her nickname."

And so on.

This in Portland, Oregon, vanguard of the "ignoring preferred pronouns and deadnaming people are serious human rights violations" school of thought. I kept my mouth shut, but was sorely tempted to ask some awkward questions.

It's all very special pleading, isn't it?

 

[Emily's Cat]

ETA: i do notice....and i think many of my fellow females here also notice, that many many many more males here at ISF are ok with trans persons crossing the female line with male bodies and are happy to chastise us for not going along with it. It's as if they dont know what it is to be female!!!

Oh yes, many of us have noticed.

We've also noticed the many times where a male has proceeded to tell us that we're wrong, we're overreacting, and we just need to calm down and be nice.

 

[d4m10n]

Can you imagine doctors prescribing depressants to teens to affirm their emo identity?

It gets weirder when you consider that goth & emo boys were actively queering gender expression: eyeliner, lipstick, nail polish, skirts, etc.

Source: Firsthand experience from 90s goth clubs and basements and basement clubs.

 

[Manger Douse]

ETA: i do notice....and i think many of my fellow females here also notice, that many many many more males here at ISF are ok with trans persons crossing the female line with male bodies and are happy to chastise us for not going along with it. It's as if they dont know what it is to be female!!!

There are some males here who do remember the patriarchy is still a thing - it's just seems to be the comfortable, middle class liberal ones who forget

 

[Trausti]

ETA: i do notice....and i think many of my fellow females here also notice, that many many many more males here at ISF are ok with trans persons crossing the female line with male bodies and are happy to chastise us for not going along with it. It's as if they dont know what it is to be female!!!

 

[Emily's Cat]

It gets weirder when you consider that goth & emo boys were actively queering gender expression: eyeliner, lipstick, nail polish, skirts, etc.

Source: Firsthand experience from 90s goth clubs and basements and basement clubs.

Same kind of first-hand experience. When we met, my spouse wore eyeliner pretty regularly. They still paint their toenails.

 

[smartcooky]

[qimg]https://i.postimg.cc/B6NG7zBT/transw-omenarewomen.jpg[/qimg]

I see a few of our forum members in that image!

 

[Samson]

There is a new political party in New Zealand to seek the protection of rights women on this thread discuss.

https://womensrightsparty.nz/

For $5 I joined.

 

[Matthew Best]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-66107716

"A teenage boy who was sexually assaulted by two women woke up with his clothes removed and injuries to his head and body, Sussex Police have said.

Both women were between 18 and 20 years old, one being 6ft 3in (1.9m) tall and with bright dyed red hair."

Unfortunately, due to the way these things are now reported, until they are arrested, we can no longer tell if these were "cis" women or trans women. But a 6ft 3" woman with red hair is going to be pretty easy to find, I would have thought.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I don’t think I have seen this referenced in the thread so I am going to throw it into the mix.
Chloe Cole is an 18 year old sueing Kaiser in California.
She identified as trans at 12. Went on puberty blockers and testosterone at 13. Had a double mastectomy at 15.
At 16 realized she was not trans and there were other issues.

ETA: other issues meaning other psychological issues. There was no questioning of the statement that she was a boy, when there were other psychological issues going on.

Seems like a long shot unless she can demonstrate that the doctors engaged in medical malpractice, that is, that their care diverged from standards of care or other professional breach.



What is the regret rate for those that transition, and what rate do you think reaches an unacceptable level where individuals and their doctors should no longer be able to pursue this treatment?

For reference, the regret rate for total knee replacement surgery is about 20%.

 

[d4m10n]

Total knee replacement is a fairly well-defined and discrete event; "transition" can refer to anything from announcing pronouns to undergoing orchiectomy.

 

[Samson]

Seems like a long shot unless she can demonstrate that the doctors engaged in medical malpractice, that is, that their care diverged from standards of care or other professional breach.



What is the regret rate for those that transition, and what rate do you think reaches an unacceptable level where individuals and their doctors should no longer be able to pursue this treatment?

For reference, the regret rate for total knee replacement surgery is about 20%.

There are 30 thousand detransitioners on reddit.

 

[Ziggurat]

Seems like a long shot unless she can demonstrate that the doctors engaged in medical malpractice, that is, that their care diverged from standards of care or other professional breach.

If her claims are true, then that's exactly what they did. According to her, they never properly diagnosed her, and never properly informed her about the risks and downsides.

The lack of proper diagnosis is a pretty consistent message I've seen from detransitioners, and also from some undercover reporting. And given how almost universal the claim that puberty blockers are reversible gets parroted by providers, and given that this claim is simply false, I think there's a very good chance that she wasn't properly informed. I don't know how easy these claims will be to prove in court, but I don't think it's that long of a shot.

For reference, the regret rate for total knee replacement surgery is about 20%.

Regret rate isn't actually relevant here. A person who doesn't regret their treatment is unlikely to sue, but legally speaking, what matters isn't whether or not you regret the treatment but whether the provider fulfilled their responsibilities.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

There are 30 thousand detransitioners on reddit.

Nobody would lie on the internet, that's for sure.

Jeez, even for the standards of anti-trans people relying on anecdotes, "my reddit hate board is somewhat popular" is especially thin.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If her claims are true, then that's exactly what they did. According to her, they never properly diagnosed her, and never properly informed her about the risks and downsides.

The lack of proper diagnosis is a pretty consistent message I've seen from detransitioners, and also from some undercover reporting. And given how almost universal the claim that puberty blockers are reversible gets parroted by providers, and given that this claim is simply false, I think there's a very good chance that she wasn't properly informed. I don't know how easy these claims will be to prove in court, but I don't think it's that long of a shot.

According to every plaintiff's lawsuit in history they have been done dirty and deserve compensation.

I can't find Kaiser's response anywhere, not sure if it's even been filed yet. Presumably they will claim that they followed every standard of care, thoroughly advised their patient, and only proceeded with informed consent. Far, far too soon to make any conclusions about the claims made.