Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[Emily's Cat]

If we did this, then we'd never know whether the endocrine/surgery treatment pathway (GnRHa → CSH → SRS) actually outperforms any other treatment modality, such as watchful waiting with cognitive behavioral aversion therapy. Since I'm in favor of finding out the truth on this matter, I'm in favor of allowing patients and providers to opt in to treatment assuming they are part of a carefully controlled trial.

So... yeah, I'm going to push back on this.

First off, I'm not particularly crazy about the idea of using children in experiments that try to solve a psychological problem with physical interventions that cause bodily harm.

More than that, however, is that some of this we already know. We know from decades of practice that watchful waiting without affirmation has more than 80% success rate - most kids grow out of their dysphoria as they progress through puberty, and go on to live normal healthy lives. We've known this for a very long time.

Additionally, from more recent research by Sweden (I think? Maybe Finland) we also know that the affirmation path (GnRHa → CSH → SRS) does NOT provide long-term mental health benefits, it does NOT reduce suicidality and depression.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This puts you to the left of Chloe Cole's position, where she is upset that she received post-pubescent transition care after receiving a diagnosis of dysphoria and supports policies totally banning anyone in a similar position from getting similar treatment.

Diagnosed with gender dysphoria at 9, socially transitions at 12, begins puberty blockers and hormone treatment at 13, and surgery at 15.

None of that is post-pubescent. Affirmation of belief began before the onset of puberty. Puberty was BLOCKED at onset, and the rest of the permanent medical interventions occurred within the first half of the pubertal window.

 

[theprestige]

This puts you to the left of Chloe Cole's position, where she is upset that she received post-pubescent transition care after receiving a diagnosis of dysphoria and supports policies totally banning anyone in a similar position from getting similar treatment.

Is that really the best you have? Just crossing your fingers and hoping I'll fall for the positional gimmick? That I'll say, "****, I'm to the left of someone, I better revise my worldview!"

Is that how you arrive at your conclusions, and you just desperately assume it must be the same for everyone else?

Incidentally, I'm curious which logical fallacy this is. Appeal to authority, probably. Like Chloe Cole is supposed to be some sort of revered oracle in my pantheon, and if I'm on her wrong side I'd best get right right quick? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.*

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Is that really the best you have? Just crossing your fingers and hoping I'll fall for the positional gimmick? That I'll say, "****, I'm to the left of someone, I better revise my worldview!"

Is that how you arrive at your conclusions, and you just desperately assume it must be the same for everyone else?

Incidentally, I'm curious which logical fallacy this is. Appeal to authority, probably. Like Chloe Cole is supposed to be some sort of revered oracle in my pantheon, and if I'm on her wrong side I'd best get right right quick? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.*

That wasn't my intention at all. I am not trying to convince you of anything, I am just pointing out relevant benchmarks. The position taken by Cole and advocated by American right wingers is significantly more restrictive than what you have offered. Do you disagree with that assessment?

The American right has staked out such an extremely restrictive view of the issue that anyone who isn't advocating for a total prohibition for trans affirming care for minors (and often adults) is to their left. Seems worth noting.

 

[d4m10n]

We know from decades of practice that watchful waiting without affirmation has more than 80% success rate - most kids grow out of their dysphoria as they progress through puberty, and go on to live normal healthy lives.

Where are you getting this figure and how does it compare to similarly situated patients who were put on the endocrine pathway?



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[Trausti]

Where are you getting this figure and how does it compare to similarly situated patients who were put on the endocrine pathway?



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Here's one source:

https://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/62554

Gender Identity Disorders in Childhood and Adolescence

Only 2.5% to 20% of all cases of GID in childhood and adolescence are the initial manifestation of irreversible transsexualism. The current state of research on this subject does not allow any valid diagnostic parameters to be identified with which one could reliably predict whether the manifestations of GID will persist, i.e., whether transsexualism will develop with certainty or, at least, a high degree of probability.

 

[Trausti]

It's apparent that the gender cult wants to get kids locked in early lest they forget they're trans.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder

Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters. Data on sexual orientation in fantasy were available for 129 participants: 82 (63.6%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 43 (33.3%) were classified as gynephilic, and 4 (3.1%) reported no sexual fantasies. For sexual orientation in behavior, data were available for 108 participants: 51 (47.2%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 29 (26.9%) were classified as gynephilic, and 28 (25.9%) reported no sexual behaviors.

You gotta trans the gay away.

 

[smartcooky]

What an incredibly cruel statement. Have you bothered to interact with and listen to what these detransitioners have to say?[

Hell no!!!

Doing that would mean having to hear alternate viewpoints. How is someone supposed to stick to their rigid, dogmatic, ******-up worldview if they have to hear stuff they don't agree with!?

 

[LondonJohn]

It's apparent that the gender cult wants to get kids locked in early lest they forget they're trans.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder



You gotta trans the gay away.

You do realise that this (imaginary) "gender cult" actually consists of the entirety of mainstream medical science, and every single significant medical organisation/body (including all the important paediatric ones)? To read what you're writing, one might be forgiven for thinking that this "gender cult" was a maverick, out-of-control cabal that's neither recognised nor condoned/sanctioned by mainstream medicine. Weird, huh?

 

[Wolrab]

You do realise that this (imaginary) "gender cult" actually consists of the entirety of mainstream medical science, and every single significant medical organisation/body (including all the important paediatric ones)? To read what you're writing, one might be forgiven for thinking that this "gender cult" was a maverick, out-of-control cabal that's neither recognised nor condoned/sanctioned by mainstream medicine. Weird, huh?

You have been called out for BS posting those claims so many times. As usual, you will ignore anything contradicting your beliefs. Why?

 

[Matthew Best]

Crown Prosecution Service’s hate crime lead wants to listen, learn and regain trust of LGBTQ+ victims

Lionel Idan’s journey of understanding the complexities of hate crime and the lived experiences of marginalised groups, especially LGBTQ+ folk, can be traced back to his early career with the CPS, when he started to take part in more community engagement.

“All it takes is for you to meet one or two hate victims to really feel that pain,” he said.

“I remember one of my early experiences, it must have been 2006, I met with the chair of my local transgender advocacy group,” Idan continued.

“She told me a story which maybe was the turning point, which really made me think about the way we do things in a different light.

“She was about 60 or 70 years old at the time, and she said, ‘Lionel, back when I was younger, I couldn’t walk into a shop and buy women’s lingerie. And so I used to have to steal items off of clotheslines. Now, what would you have done? If a case involving me had come onto your desk?’

“I said, ‘Of course, I’d have prosecuted you.’ And she said, ‘There you go. Now, you know the context. I had to steal, not because I’m a thief, but because I couldn’t buy what I needed for my identity.’

“That was one of the moments where I realised, in the job I do, that to better understand lived experience is absolutely crucial.”

 

[lionking]

You do realise that this (imaginary) "gender cult" actually consists of the entirety of mainstream medical science, and every single significant medical organisation/body (including all the important paediatric ones)? To read what you're writing, one might be forgiven for thinking that this "gender cult" was a maverick, out-of-control cabal that's neither recognised nor condoned/sanctioned by mainstream medicine. Weird, huh?

Sounds like a very good description of Tavistock. You know that once revered body well accepted by mainstream medicine…..

 

[theprestige]

Crown Prosecution Service’s hate crime lead wants to listen, learn and regain trust of LGBTQ+ victims

Lionel Idan’s journey of understanding the complexities of hate crime and the lived experiences of marginalised groups, especially LGBTQ+ folk, can be traced back to his early career with the CPS, when he started to take part in more community engagement.

“All it takes is for you to meet one or two hate victims to really feel that pain,” he said.

“I remember one of my early experiences, it must have been 2006, I met with the chair of my local transgender advocacy group,” Idan continued.

“She told me a story which maybe was the turning point, which really made me think about the way we do things in a different light.

“She was about 60 or 70 years old at the time, and she said, ‘Lionel, back when I was younger, I couldn’t walk into a shop and buy women’s lingerie. And so I used to have to steal items off of clotheslines. Now, what would you have done? If a case involving me had come onto your desk?’

“I said, ‘Of course, I’d have prosecuted you.’ And she said, ‘There you go. Now, you know the context. I had to steal, not because I’m a thief, but because I couldn’t buy what I needed for my identity.’

“That was one of the moments where I realised, in the job I do, that to better understand lived experience is absolutely crucial.”

This discussion would be a lot different if it were actually about letting men buy ladies' underwear if they're so inclined.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Is that really the best you have? Just crossing your fingers and hoping I'll fall for the positional gimmick? That I'll say, "****, I'm to the left of someone, I better revise my worldview!"

Is that how you arrive at your conclusions, and you just desperately assume it must be the same for everyone else?

Incidentally, I'm curious which logical fallacy this is. Appeal to authority, probably. Like Chloe Cole is supposed to be some sort of revered oracle in my pantheon, and if I'm on her wrong side I'd best get right right quick? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.*

I have to admit that I giggled a bit at the insinuation that you were "to the left" of someone being somehow a cause for concern. I think nearly all of us on this site, as well as in this thread, are generally on the left. Some might be closer to the middle, but there are incredibly few people on this site that are actually on the right. The idea that you'd be abashed by being called "left" is a bit laughable.

 

[d4m10n]

Here's one source:

https://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/62554

Respectfully, I don't think "all cases of GID in childhood and adolescence" is the reference population here, when we're trying to compare to those patients who were eventually referred to the endocrinologists from centres of excellence in paediatric gender medicine such as GIDS Tavistock. While some practitioners played it a bit fast and loose in terms of screening, the endocrine net wasn't cast over anything close to 100% of children presenting with at least some symptoms of GID.

 

[Samson]

You do realise that this (imaginary) "gender cult" actually consists of the entirety of mainstream medical science, and every single significant medical organisation/body (including all the important paediatric ones)? To read what you're writing, one might be forgiven for thinking that this "gender cult" was a maverick, out-of-control cabal that's neither recognised nor condoned/sanctioned by mainstream medicine. Weird, huh?

Is R18 in the UK a good move or pandering to the ant trans extremists?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Where are you getting this figure and how does it compare to similarly situated patients who were put on the endocrine pathway?

Here's one source:

https://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/62554

Gender Identity Disorders in Childhood and Adolescence

Yup, that's one of them. There are numerous sources that have noted that gender dysphoria that presents in childhood or at the onset of puberty, if left untreated, will resolve in at least 80% of cases as puberty progresses, with no long term negative affects.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You do realise that this (imaginary) "gender cult" actually consists of the entirety of mainstream medical science, and every single significant medical organisation/body (including all the important paediatric ones)? To read what you're writing, one might be forgiven for thinking that this "gender cult" was a maverick, out-of-control cabal that's neither recognised nor condoned/sanctioned by mainstream medicine. Weird, huh?

Well, you know, except for NHS, the Karolinska Institute, and a few others in European countries that you seem to have decided aren't part of the advanced world for some reason or other.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Well, you know, except for NHS, the Karolinska Institute, and a few others in European countries that you seem to have decided aren't part of the advanced world for some reason or other.

To be fair, TERF island is rapidly descending into "developing world" status. If I were you, I'd lean heavier on the other European powers that aren't collapsing inward on themselves as better examples of responsible, sober governance.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Crown Prosecution Service’s hate crime lead wants to listen, learn and regain trust of LGBTQ+ victims

Lionel Idan’s journey of understanding the complexities of hate crime and the lived experiences of marginalised groups, especially LGBTQ+ folk, can be traced back to his early career with the CPS, when he started to take part in more community engagement.

“All it takes is for you to meet one or two hate victims to really feel that pain,” he said.

“I remember one of my early experiences, it must have been 2006, I met with the chair of my local transgender advocacy group,” Idan continued.

“She told me a story which maybe was the turning point, which really made me think about the way we do things in a different light.

“She was about 60 or 70 years old at the time, and she said, ‘Lionel, back when I was younger, I couldn’t walk into a shop and buy women’s lingerie. And so I used to have to steal items off of clotheslines. Now, what would you have done? If a case involving me had come onto your desk?’

“I said, ‘Of course, I’d have prosecuted you.’ And she said, ‘There you go. Now, you know the context. I had to steal, not because I’m a thief, but because I couldn’t buy what I needed for my identity.’

“That was one of the moments where I realised, in the job I do, that to better understand lived experience is absolutely crucial.”

I have opinions and speculations.

First off, I doubt it was illegal for this pensioner to purchase lingerie when they were younger. They might have gotten some weird looks... but seriously? Was it actually completely unheard of for a male to purchase undergarments for their spouse? I think there are probably lots of ways that this male could have legally purchased female undergarments, and the claim that they were "forced" to steal them seems like some post-hoc rationalization to me.

Secondly... apparently Idan's "journey" of understanding the experiences of the people they are supposed to protect doesn't extend to females. Somehow, the lived experiences of females seems to have not made it onto their radar.