Transgender man gives birth

[applecorped]

You too.

See how easy it is to CHOOSE to remove yourself from someone you find disagreeable?

 

[DragonLady]

Yes, the cure being to not ostracise ugly people so they don't have to leave.

Well, yes, again with the ideal world.

I was thinking of the marvelous advances in plastic surgery, but you are correct. There's certainly enough good reason for all of us to be tolerant and open and willing to overlook each other's differences.

I'm not arguing otherwise.

"According to DragonLady, in an ideal world there would be plenty of room and money to install washrooms, shower facilities, etc for everyone to use so all are comfortable and safe."

which is a far cry from:

"According to DragonLady, who has an allergy to a substance everyone on the planet seems to love, there should be an immediate ban on its use in public, punishable by horrific fines and even jail time, so that she can attend the social and cultural events of her choice."

I do believe those individuals who cannot find any facilities where they are comfortable are likely very few and far between, and likely acting in ways that call attention to whatever their situation is.

The specific case that was brought up was Transwoman with male parts. I said:

Is that person capable of raping the other female shaped persons? If so, I'm not so fond of the idea of her being in a washroom with other female-shaped-persons-with-female-parts (do you see how out of hand this gets, and how quickly?) but really only for reasons of the safety of all concerned. But...a female shaped person with male parts would probably be more at risk of assault in a room full of standard issue men, so again, I say "Please consider the effects of your behavior on others".

Bolding added.

But, like everything, there are shades of gray:
How many male parts?
Which male parts?

If that person has a smooth face, and a general female shape, most likely they can use a female washroom without even gathering a glance. Most women's rooms have stalls, so if this person simply uses the room the way everyone else does, they're not going to stand out, and no one is going to feel uncomfortable. But...in that event, they're probably also undergoing hormone therapy, and living the lifestyle of a genuine person going through the transgender process.

For me, that lessens the personal safety concerns quite a bit, because most of my fears are of those who would use -abuse- the whole transgender concept as a way to gain access to people they would harm.

 

[DragonLady]

Anyone that thinks 'that makes me uncomfortable' stands alone as a solid and convincing reason why others should conform to their wants really isn't someone I want to spend any time on.

Right.

That bugs me, because it seems to me to be just what is happening: a very small group of people insisting everyone else should conform to their wants.

A great many people will conform, as asked. Most of us actually want to be social, to be accepting, to enjoy the life-expanding benefits of a diverse culture.

Most likely, the next time I'm a movie theatre, I could politely ask everyone in the room to rid themselves of the subject of my allergy, and I'd guess a third or more would do so.

But that wouldn't give those the right to turn around and try to compel everyone else to follow suit.

And, there will always be those who will not, and there will that tiny group that will bathe in the stuff, just to be ornery.

At the end of the day, whether or not I go to see a movie is my choice, and when I do go, I accept the potential consequences -the whole bagful. I make a plan, I find a relatively safe place to sit, I avoid the areas most likely to cause trouble, and if needed I leave.

I do not ask anyone else to change their behavior to accommodate me.

However, if there is ever a day when a much larger group of people -say 5% or more are affected as I am, I'll bet there will be social pressure from them to see changes made.

Which will be a whole 'nother discussion, just like this one.

 

[Belz...]

Well, yes, again with the ideal world.

Oh, in the real world too.

 

[DragonLady]

Oh, in the real world too.

As I said: I'm not arguing otherwise.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Right.

That bugs me, because it seems to me to be just what is happening: a very small group of people insisting everyone else should conform to their wants.

Just like with the gays.

 

[DragonLady]

Just like with the gays.

Isn't that a much larger group?

And in what ways are they demanding everyone else in the world change to suit their needs?

When I was a small child, gays were almost all closeted. Now, they get married and raise families.

My behavior has not changed one whit.

With the issues of transgender people, they're demanding everyone to call them by their preferred pronouns, and demanding everyone make allowances for them in spaces where their presence can make others feel uncomfortable and unsafe.

That seems a pretty big difference to me.

Of course, if the gays were attempting to force the rest of us to turn our heads while they indulged in nude public displays of affection, you would have a point.

 

[Tony]

Just like with the gays.

Wrong. Nice try though.

 

[mgidm86]

Wow. Just wow.

Yeah, have a lovely day.

I don't understand the "just wow". If you had just typed "wow", then it would be just wow. Now it is not just "wow". ??

I agree with a lot of what DragonLady says. Not everything.

I'm pro-legal weed. My Dad asks me, "What about cocaine and all the other drugs?"

I say when enough people want it legal then you will see signs of this. Apparently nobody/very few people cares about it. I've never seen a "Cocaine: Legalize it" T-shirt.

I never see this transgender issue discussed anywhere but at the ISF. Rarely in the news, rarely anywhere. Because nobody/not enough people care. Me? I don't care, largely because of this, but I also don't see a practical solution, and partially because I think this is a BS issue drummed up by some lawyers.

Yeah that's it - I don't really care.

 

[sphenisc]

Let's argue for a moment we have a hypothetical person who was born in some unusual way, has no choices, and manages to make every single person they encounter uncomfortable, whatever they're doing.

That person's CHOICE to be around people at all is self-indulging. I'd feel very sorry for that person -probably from a distance- but that doesn't mean I'd believe that every other person on the planet should just move aside to cut a nice wide swath so this one individual could be more comfortable.

Especially in this day and age when other choices are available. That person can most likely get disability and other government aid. They could socialize -and even have therapy- on the phone or via the internet, have food and merchandise delivered to the door step, and -hopefully- finally find a "cure" or techniques to control whatever the problem is.

Throughout history there have probably been at least a few people who come close to fitting the scenario; who have felt -or literally been- forced to remove themselves from the larger society. Whether an inability to control their bowels, horrendous disfigurements, infectious diseases... they had to make harsh choices, or had them thrust upon them. Yet the world didn't stop for them.

It's not a good situation, and I do feel badly for someone in that situation. But it does happen, and it's not the basis for obligating the rest of the world to put themselves into danger or distress over it.

When the discussion is about transgendered individuals, to me the water becomes even murkier. Because while someone may not have a choice about what gender they "feel like", usually the choice to change is just that: a choice. A choice that carries a set of consequences, just like every other.

Is this going to turn into another Ron Tompkins thread?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

What % does a group need to be for it to achieve this legitimacy threshold?

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Is this going to turn into another Ron Tompkins thread?

It just did.

 

[DragonLady]

What % does a group need to be for it to achieve this legitimacy threshold?

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

I don't really know.

I would guess when it becomes big enough that businesses start thinking they're losing money by failing to install facilities exclusively for the members of these groups.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Isn't that a much larger group?

1% vs 3%? Both are small enough to be ignored by larger society.

And in what ways are they demanding everyone else in the world change to suit their needs?

Letting them keep their jobs, letting them get housing and so on. Protecting them from harrasment. Exactly the same things people are objecting to transgender people here.

They also used a lot of the bathroom predator hype there too.

When I was a small child, gays were almost all closeted. Now, they get married and raise families.

Kind of like a lot of transgender people are now less closeted.

With the issues of transgender people, they're demanding everyone to call them by their preferred pronouns, and demanding everyone make allowances for them in spaces where their presence can make others feel uncomfortable and unsafe.

And the gays get all uppity when you ask them which one is the wife and which one is the husband.

That seems a pretty big difference to me.

Of course, if the gays were attempting to force the rest of us to turn our heads while they indulged in nude public displays of affection, you would have a point.

They want us to accept that they can hold hands in public and kiss. That turns the stomach of right thinking christians.

 

[sylvan8798]

I never see this transgender issue discussed anywhere but at the ISF. Rarely in the news, rarely anywhere. Because nobody/not enough people care. Me? I don't care, largely because of this, but I also don't see a practical solution, and partially because I think this is a BS issue drummed up by some lawyers.

Yeah that's it - I don't really care.

Maybe you should mention that to President Trump, who just declared that all transgender service members are to be ousted asap. Or the Texas legislature, working on yet another "bathroom bill".

 

[p0lka]

Because I've never had reason to believe any member of my family might rape me. I'm sure it happens; and I'm sure it's even more likely with "friends". If I had to guess, I'd gamble the most likely rape scene is a "date rape", and they're probably not always reported. But that's just my guess.

But when someone followed me out of a restaurant to my car, it was a man. When two persons followed me into washrooms, then just hung out like it was a hotel lobby, they were men.
When someone came up behind me at a payphone and tried to remove my clothes, it was............

wait for it..............

a man.

Yep.

Sorry, guys, but regardless of the reported stats, I think most rapists are men, and I believe most of the targets are women.

Further, I believe rapists will do just about anything to put themselves into a situation where they can rape. They will claim to be woman, or trans-women, or teenagers, avowed nuns, or little pink bunnies if it gives them access to their targets.

Ergo, women need to be conscious of their own safety, and be prudent enough not to discuss sex and or gender with the guy who has just followed them into the bathroom -thus giving him more time and opportunity to form a plan to cause harm.

You have a rather negative rapey view of men, is that fair?

 

[tyr_13]

Not here in this thread no. Here in this forum, yes.

And therefore it's a mischaracterization at best to pretend the 'conclusion' of the question 'are you a bigot if you don't want to have sex with a transwoman' was 'yes'.

And:

...and the only people who ever wanted any of the odd sounding ones who I've actually met were some radical feminists in college (one of whom is ironically a TERF now). This is literally what you cut off from the quote.

That seems at odds, since "non-binary" isn't something scientific at all. At the very least, ideologues misrepresent the science. But science has never been immune to ideology, just resilient to it.

What makes you say that 'non-binary' isn't 'something scientific'? Are you objecting to the simplified term? Do you believe there are no findings or research that deals with the topic?

Your other objections are vague too. Is this a poisoning of the well? Do you not trust research on the subject inherently?

 

[uke2se]

Being deliberately obtuse does not make -or break- an argument.

How am I being obtuse? What is the actual problem you are describing? How to use the proper pronoun to a trans-gendered person? The answer is simple: ask, as I've already explained. If you are not in a position to ask, you are not in a position to having to use the proper pronoun to a trans-gendered person.

You wanted to know whether those persons who wandered into the female washroom were transgendered, and how they behaved toward me.

And you didn't answer.

MY question stands:

And I still don't understand what that has to do with anything.

I didn't ask you to help me.

Sure.

Okay. So let's not unfairly target 99.7% of the world population by attempting to compel them to change their world views and or behavior to accommodate .3%.

How nice. Tyrrany of the majority.

Are we good now?

Are you in the same discussion with me? A trans-woman who looks like a woman is perfectly welcome in the women's locker room.

Perfect. How about a trans-man who looks like a man? Is he welcome in the men's locker room?

Sure; if we're back to the rape-with-an-object subject. But as I understand it as this moment, that's pretty darn rare. As are transgendered individuals.

No, it's not rare.

What's (sadly) not so rare is men who use the goodwill and good intentions of others to make opportunities to rape.

That's pretty rare when set against the population of men on the planet.

I propose that every person, in every situation of their entire lives, stops to consider the impact of their own behavior on themselves, and on the other people around them.

If a trans-woman in a locker room is making other people uncomfortable or feel afraid, she should consider that when choosing where to shower and change.

If a trans-woman in a locker room is made to feel uncomfortable or afraid by other people, she should consider that when choosing where to shower and change.

Is that succinct enough?

Yes, you are putting all the responsibility on the trans-woman and none on anyone else.

I'm not on board.

 

[Belz...]

And therefore it's a mischaracterization at best to pretend the 'conclusion' of the question 'are you a bigot if you don't want to have sex with a transwoman' was 'yes'.

I wasn't aware that the rest of this forum doesn't exist when discussing issues in a particular thread.

...and the only people who ever wanted any of the odd sounding ones who I've actually met were some radical feminists in college (one of whom is ironically a TERF now).

Considering the uproar over Facebook genders a couple of years ago, I'd say it's not quite as far into the fringe as you think.

What makes you say that 'non-binary' isn't 'something scientific'?

Because there isn't anything scientific about it. Some people _claim_ to be non-binary, but that doesn't mean anything.

 

[DragonLady]

How am I being obtuse? What is the actual problem you are describing? How to use the proper pronoun to a trans-gendered person? The answer is simple: ask, as I've already explained. If you are not in a position to ask, you are not in a position to having to use the proper pronoun to a trans-gendered person.

I repeatedly made the point that if someone is not around it's impossible to ask.

You repeatedly refused to understand that very simple point.

That is being obtuse.

And you didn't answer.

Yes, I did. Twice. I said "I didn't ask" and "I didn't stay to see how they would act."

Refusing to understand is being obtuse.

And I still don't understand what that has to do with anything.

Right. I call "obtuse" for the third time. Just need a couple more.... It still doesn't make or break an argument.

How nice. Tyrrany of the majority.

Yep. That's the world we live in, and always have. Funny how the majority is all good when it works for you, but a tyrant when it doesn't.

Yeah. That's four...just one more to go!

Perfect. How about a trans-man who looks like a man? Is he welcome in the men's locker room?

And...five for BINGO!!!!

I've answered that one, too.

No, it's not rare.

Okay; fine...I'll give you this free space.

That's pretty rare when set against the population of men on the planet.

So is being transgendered. So if I'm not supposed to consider the people who use the goodwill of others against them because it's rare, why am I supposed to consider another group that is also rare?

Why is the one any more deserving of consideration than the other?

Yes, you are putting all the responsibility on the trans-woman and none on anyone else.

Who should be responsible, and WHY? WHY should this tiny group of people be ceded the "tyranny of the minority"?

I'm not on board.

That's fine. But that doesn't give anyone else the right to force you to be on board; and that's the real point of all this. These rare people want to be able to force everyone else into their tiny little car, despite how uncomfortable or unsafe it might make many of us feel.