Transgender man gives birth

DragonLady said:
Right now, I don't think enough male-shaped people enter women's restrooms -or vice-versa for it to seem "normal" enough not to call some attention.

But if it starts to happen all the time, so people stop paying any attention, those who would exploit it will.

"Oh, I've no idea...so many men-shaped-people have entered that room today that I simply didn't notice, and of course...it would be dehumanizing to ask any questions............"
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Depends on the question.
 
Argumemnon said:
Yes, it's very weird. I don't see any evidence for such a claim.
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Why? It already happens. A woman's restroom is not a particularly safe place for anyone. That is why it's so easy to make someone feel unsafe there.

While it might not get any worse with a high number of male-shaped-persons entering with impunity, I certainly don't think it will get any better.



http://www.wboc.com/story/7864451/denton-man-sentenced-in-restroom-rape-of-64-year-old-woman

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/crime/article/Charges-Man-tried-to-rape-woman-in-Golden-10987770.php

http://www.news12.com/story/35533174/police-man-attempted-to-rape-woman-in-canarsie-public-restroom

Finally, we have a perfectly germane tale straight from a victim's mouth:

http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/23/a-rape-survivor-speaks-out-about-transgender-bathrooms/
 
DragonLady said:
Right now, I don't think enough male-shaped people enter women's restrooms -or vice-versa for it to seem "normal" enough not to call some attention.

But if it starts to happen all the time, so people stop paying any attention, those who would exploit it will.

"Oh, I've no idea...so many men-shaped-people have entered that room today that I simply didn't notice, and of course...it would be dehumanizing to ask any questions............"
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And by exploiting here, you mean sexual assault. I don't think anyone would buy "I didn't notice this was a ladies' room because some transwomen still look a lot like dudes" as an excuse to commit sexual assault.

Once you touch someone else in a locker room or toilet, you go too far, and there is no way that allowing trans people to use those facilities will provide more cover for potential rapists than they currently have.
 
Porpoise of Life said:
And by exploiting here, you mean sexual assault. I don't think anyone would buy "I didn't notice this was a ladies' room because some transwomen still look a lot like dudes" as an excuse to commit sexual assault.

Once you touch someone else in a locker room or toilet, you go too far, and there is no way that allowing trans people to use those facilities will provide more cover for potential rapists than they currently have.
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Nope, it's simply a bad excuse.
 
Here's a root issue I see getting repeated:

"That person makes me uncomfortable"

Bull-puckey. Own your feelings.

For the mere act of existing and being in somewhat close to proximity, you are helpless to reach any conclusion other than feeling threatened and uncomfortable? And the other person bears responsibility for this?

Physician, heal thy damn self.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
 
Funny... this thread was started to talk about pronouns and conversations, but somehow all threads like this always end up with people going "cisgendered straight creeps will pretend to be trans so they can ogle/rape me/my daughter".
 
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Porpoise of Life said:
And by exploiting here, you mean sexual assault. I don't think anyone would buy "I didn't notice this was a ladies' room because some transwomen still look a lot like dudes" as an excuse to commit sexual assault.

Once you touch someone else in a locker room or toilet, you go too far, and there is no way that allowing trans people to use those facilities will provide more cover for potential rapists than they currently have.
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At first blush, I was somewhat inclined to agree with this.

But....

Why would exploitation be limited to physical assault?

Why should anyone not be able to say "I don't want to be seen naked by people with opposite sex characteristics; and to that end I've intentionally chosen a room intended only for those who do not have such" and be just as respected -and accommodated- for that choice as are those who want to say "everyone should be able to freely wander in and out and no one should ever care"?
 
Porpoise of Life said:
It seems kind of strange that some people imagine that rapists, who are willing to invade a locker room and commit a terrible crime, will feel emboldened by transgender access to locker rooms.
What's holding back these rapists now? Politeness?
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Other people being in there presumably

Would think it would be more pervs filming, maybe even posting stuff, that you might be ok with, but I doubt others are

Think I have said it before, but

Personally if a transgender wants to line up in the blokes with a urinal row or an old style trough, good on them.

But men don't have a reputation for bad aiming for nothing, so I suggest wearing shoes
 
uke2se said:
As long as you accept the answer "I'm a woman", there's no issue.
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And if I don't?

Do I then get to demand such person prove it?

If not, why not?

Why does -or why should- being transgendered trump basic safety concerns?
 
DragonLady said:
And if I don't?

Do I then get to demand such person prove it?

If not, why not?

Why does -or why should- being transgendered trump basic safety concerns?
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Then we're in the situation I asked you about earlier. I'll repeat it for you:

What do you believe should happen if another visitor to the locker room discovered that the trans-woman wasn't all woman and decided to make a fuss about it? Who ought to leave? Who, among those two, has a right to be there?
 
DragonLady said:
At first blush, I was somewhat inclined to agree with this.

But....

Why would exploitation be limited to physical assault?

Why should anyone not be able to say "I don't want to be seen naked by people with opposite sex characteristics; and to that end I've intentionally chosen a room intended only for those who do not have such" and be just as respected -and accommodated- for that choice as are those who want to say "everyone should be able to freely wander in and out and no one should ever care"?
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Toilets have stalls, and most locker rooms where I live do too, so in my experience, no one has to be seen naked if they don't want to.
Maybe you live in a place where all locker rooms are communal, but that still shouldn't be a problem with toilets.
Ogling people is still rude, no matter what you have between your legs, so if someone is in a locker room to look at naked people, they'd be escorted out, and their gender identity wouldn't be an excuse they could use to harrass others.

Also, the very few trans people I know would never undress in front of anyone, because of the rather high likelyhood they'd be assaulted for being different and the general discomfort of being 'outed' in general.
 
DragonLady said:
And if I don't?

Do I then get to demand such person prove it?

If not, why not?

Why does -or why should- being transgendered trump basic safety concerns?
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There was a case maybe last year or so, when the NC law was in the news where some protective citizen stops someone they thought was a biological male walking into a women's restroom.

They started with exactly the kind of questions you're mentioning, and when they didn't believe the answer, they restrained this person and called the police.

This person happened to be a cisgendered female who dressed andryogynously and had a short haircut and a deep voice.

I don't think there's actually a reasonable place for citizens to be grilling people on their gender or sex.

Trans people are a tiny tiny portion of society, and the vast majority of them who are using facilities of their transitional gender are people who are presenting very clearly as the gender they are transitioning to. So there's not really the precedent of male looking people going in and out of a restroom all day. It's still going to be very very rare no matter how accepting we become.

And despite the "what if" scenario, nothing even remotely like this fear has happened in any of the places that allow trans people to use the appropriate bathrooms. If someone really wants to sneak into a bathroom to assault people, well, if there enough people watching the door to see them come in and question them, then there would be people around if there were an assault. Gender norms for bathroom entrance are not the major barrier stopping a flood of rapists.

That's a bit like saying, if you have bathrooms in a zoo, then the gorillas might get out of their cage and assault someone in the bathroom. Sure it's technically possible, but very unlikely.

Here's something that really happens. Trans people are assaulted when they enter the bathroom of their birth-assigned gender. Trans women are sexually assaulted in men's bathrooms. Given the small population, it has happened quite a lot.

The idea of subjecting a group to real violence, that actually happens with some frequency to avoid a rube goldbergesque speculative risk is ridiculous.
 
uke2se said:
Then we're in the situation I asked you about earlier. I'll repeat it for you:

What do you believe should happen if another visitor to the locker room discovered that the trans-woman wasn't all woman and decided to make a fuss about it? Who ought to leave? Who, among those two, has a right to be there?
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Actually............

Does anyone have a "right" to be there?

Maybe the best solution for everyone is to simply remove public bathrooms, locker rooms, and showers.

I know that might seem facetious, but it isn't. Maybe public facilities have had their day, and it's time to give them up?
 
DragonLady said:
Actually............

Does anyone have a "right" to be there?

Maybe the best solution for everyone is to simply remove public bathrooms, locker rooms, and showers.

I know that might seem facetious, but it isn't. Maybe public facilities have had their day, and it's time to give them up?
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Maybe just introduce unisex bathrooms and locker rooms? I mean, they do have a purpose, enough to make their removal because we can't agree who belongs where seem like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Makes much more sense just saying it's a locker room. Not a men's locker room or a women's locker room, but simply a locker room for anyone needing to change their clothes or take a shower.
 
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