Transgender man gives birth

I don't mean to suggest that the situation you were in was safe. I find it entirely plausible and likely that the men who followed you into the toilet did so with nefarious intent. I only suggest that a similar event without any actual danger could occur.
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Absolutely. And, I came to no harm -neither followed me back out. However, I didn't hang around to ask questions, either. But if I had, what would I have asked?

Oh, hello...are you, by any chance, a woman inside?
If not, why are you here?

Confrontational and obnoxious at the very best.
Dangerous at the very worst.

Oh! I didn't expect to see a girl like you in here!!!
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Mocking and rude, no matter what the person's intentions were -and unlikely to be a safe approach, if harm is intended.

None of the options that come to mind seems very realistic...and IF these people -or even one of them- was in fact a potential rapist, any attempt at a conversation is only going to give them time and better opportunity.

To that moment, said person has only followed someone into a semi-private room...if he doesn't have a plan, hasn't made a firm commitment to harm, isn't certain of the situation...well, you're right where he wants you and you're giving him the opportunity to remedy whatever may be holding him back.
 
DragonLady said:
Okay. So let's not unfairly target 99.7% of the world population by attempting to compel them to change their world views and or behavior to accommodate .3%.

Are we good now?

Are you in the same discussion with me? A trans-woman who looks like a woman is perfectly welcome in the women's locker room.
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But that's just the sort of accommodation you don't want to provide, per previous paragraph.
I propose that every person, in every situation of their entire lives, stops to consider the impact of their own behavior on themselves, and on the other people around them.

If a trans-woman in a locker room is making other people uncomfortable or feel afraid, she should consider that when choosing where to shower and change.

If a trans-woman in a locker room is made to feel uncomfortable or afraid by other people, she should consider that when choosing where to shower and change.

Is that succinct enough?
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Transwoman with male parts: Hmm, if I go in the women's locker room, I'll make the other women uncomfortable. If I go in the men's locker room I'll be uncomfortable and afraid. Guess I'll go home instead.

No, not succinct enough. You're all over the map.
 
Guess I'll go home instead.
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In some cases, that might be necessary.

Why should it be otherwise?

I have an allergy to a very common substance. Over the years, I've been forced to leave concerts, movie theatres, circuses...you name it, where people gather, I might be forced to go home.

But, maybe I should just shout and scream and bawl about the unfairness of it all, until I can force 99.70% of the population -everyone that isn't allergic like me- to give up something that is popular and (usually) perfectly safe?
 
DragonLady said:
In some cases, that might be necessary.

Why should it be otherwise?

I have an allergy to a very common substance. Over the years, I've been forced to leave concerts, movie theatres, circuses...you name it, where people gather, I might be forced to go home.

But, maybe I should just shout and scream and bawl about the unfairness of it all, until I can force 99.70% of the population -everyone that isn't allergic like me- to give up something that is popular and (usually) perfectly safe?
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You know there are certain clubs - golf clubs and the like, the members of which are made uncomfortable by the presence of ladies.

If you were the only lady at the club and you were making the men uncomfortable merely by being a lady, would you feel obliged to leave?
 
If you were the only lady at the club and you were making the men uncomfortable merely by being a lady, would you feel obliged to leave?
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Quite possibly, yes.

It goes back to:

I propose that every person, in every situation of their entire lives, stops to consider the impact of their own behavior on themselves, and on the other people around them.
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I have no idea why the men on a golf course would be uncomfortable, but I don't need to know or even ask. If my presence is disruptive, they're not having a good time, I'm not having a good time, and I can think of no reason I would want to stay there.

There are plenty of golf courses that do want me.

But if there were not -if every golf course in the world became "men only" so what? Golfing is a CHOICE and choices have consequences. By choosing to golf, I'm choosing to put myself and others in an uncomfortable place. If that's what I want...well, fine for me...but to ask all the men to do so because I damn well demand my "right" to golf??? Seriously?

No.

That's not to say I don't feel for those few individuals who might have problems using public facilities, because I do. In an ideal world...and all that jazz. But the world is not ideal, and there will always be a few -like my own self- who have to give up things we want because of circumstance.

We don't have the right to try to force the rest of the world to change so we can indulge ourselves.
 
DragonLady said:
Quite possibly, yes.

It goes back to:



I have no idea why the men on a golf course would be uncomfortable, but I don't need to know or even ask. If my presence is disruptive, they're not having a good time, I'm not having a good time, and I can think of no reason I would want to stay there.

There are plenty of golf courses that do want me.

But if there were not -if every golf course in the world became "men only" so what? Golfing is a CHOICE and choices have consequences. By choosing to golf, I'm choosing to put myself and others in an uncomfortable place. If that's what I want...well, fine for me...but to ask all the men to do so because I damn well demand my "right" to golf??? Seriously?

No.
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Well, I rather think it's a good thing that not all ladies have shared your views. I'm sure suffrage made a good many men uncomfortable too.


That's not to say I don't feel for those few individuals who might have problems using public facilities, because I do. In an ideal world...and all that jazz. But the world is not ideal, and there will always be a few -like my own self- who have to give up things we want because of circumstance.

We don't have the right to try to force the rest of the world to change so we can indulge ourselves.
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"Indulge ourselves"?

Going to the lavatory is 'indulging ourselves'?
 
DragonLady said:
In some cases, that might be necessary.

Why should it be otherwise?

I have an allergy to a very common substance. Over the years, I've been forced to leave concerts, movie theatres, circuses...you name it, where people gather, I might be forced to go home.

But, maybe I should just shout and scream and bawl about the unfairness of it all, until I can force 99.70% of the population -everyone that isn't allergic like me- to give up something that is popular and (usually) perfectly safe?
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You have extended your facilities to public bathrooms. You do realize that saying certain people cannot (or should not) use ANY public restroom effectively consigns them to remain in their homes? How would they even have a job?

This is exactly the case I made above - the desire is to force them to behave in a way that meets our "expectation" (that is, as the gender they were assigned at birth) or effectively remove them from society altogether.
 
3point14 said:
Well, I rather think it's a good thing that not all ladies have shared your views. I'm sure suffrage made a good many men uncomfortable too.
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I'm sure it did. But a good many of them were not uncomfortable, and as time went by the situation changed. But it wasn't the result of .3% of the population attempting to compel everyone else.

"Indulge ourselves"?

Going to the lavatory is 'indulging ourselves'?
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Yes.

Let's argue for a moment we have a hypothetical person who was born in some unusual way, has no choices, and manages to make every single person they encounter uncomfortable, whatever they're doing.

That person's CHOICE to be around people at all is self-indulging. I'd feel very sorry for that person -probably from a distance- but that doesn't mean I'd believe that every other person on the planet should just move aside to cut a nice wide swath so this one individual could be more comfortable.

Especially in this day and age when other choices are available. That person can most likely get disability and other government aid. They could socialize -and even have therapy- on the phone or via the internet, have food and merchandise delivered to the door step, and -hopefully- finally find a "cure" or techniques to control whatever the problem is.

Throughout history there have probably been at least a few people who come close to fitting the scenario; who have felt -or literally been- forced to remove themselves from the larger society. Whether an inability to control their bowels, horrendous disfigurements, infectious diseases... they had to make harsh choices, or had them thrust upon them. Yet the world didn't stop for them.

It's not a good situation, and I do feel badly for someone in that situation. But it does happen, and it's not the basis for obligating the rest of the world to put themselves into danger or distress over it.

When the discussion is about transgendered individuals, to me the water becomes even murkier. Because while someone may not have a choice about what gender they "feel like", usually the choice to change is just that: a choice. A choice that carries a set of consequences, just like every other.
 
DragonLady said:
I'm sure it did. But a good many of them were not uncomfortable, and as time went by the situation changed. But it wasn't the result of .3% of the population attempting to compel everyone else.



Yes.

Let's argue for a moment we have a hypothetical person who was born in some unusual way, has no choices, and manages to make every single person they encounter uncomfortable, whatever they're doing.

That person's CHOICE to be around people at all is self-indulging.
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Oh, I stopped reading here. I'm definitely done with you. Have a lovely day.
 
DragonLady said:
Let's argue for a moment we have a hypothetical person who was born in some unusual way, has no choices, and manages to make every single person they encounter uncomfortable, whatever they're doing.

That person's CHOICE to be around people at all is self-indulging. I'd feel very sorry for that person -probably from a distance- but that doesn't mean I'd believe that every other person on the planet should just move aside to cut a nice wide swath so this one individual could be more comfortable.

Especially in this day and age when other choices are available. That person can most likely get disability and other government aid. They could socialize -and even have therapy- on the phone or via the internet, have food and merchandise delivered to the door step, and -hopefully- finally find a "cure" or techniques to control whatever the problem is.

Throughout history there have probably been at least a few people who come close to fitting the scenario; who have felt -or literally been- forced to remove themselves from the larger society. Whether an inability to control their bowels, horrendous disfigurements, infectious diseases... they had to make harsh choices, or had them thrust upon them. Yet the world didn't stop for them.

It's not a good situation, and I do feel badly for someone in that situation. But it does happen, and it's not the basis for obligating the rest of the world to put themselves into danger or distress over it.

When the discussion is about transgendered individuals, to me the water becomes even murkier. Because while someone may not have a choice about what gender they "feel like", usually the choice to change is just that: a choice. A choice that carries a set of consequences, just like every other.
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Wow. Just wow.

Yeah, have a lovely day.
 
Tony said:
Why can't you address what she said?
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lol

No problems. This is not a personal argument for me, but I do realize that it is a personal subject for some.

I usually choose to try to change the subject around a little bit, to remove the emotional impact, and I should have done in this case.
 
Tony said:
Why can't you address what she said?
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Because I'd be in gross breach of the membership agreement and because I just cannot twist my head enough to get to the point when I can empathise in any way with 'Eugh, the ugly person makes me uncomfortable, they should stay at home'.

I'm not going to engage with that, I'll just get in trouble.
 
the ugly person
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I did mention horrendous disfigurement as a possible reason for feeling ostracized in the past. Thankfully, for most cases, they have a cure for that now.
 
3point14 said:
Because I'd be in gross breach of the membership agreement and because I just cannot twist my head enough to get to the point when I can empathise in any way with 'Eugh, the ugly person makes me uncomfortable, they should stay at home'.

I'm not going to engage with that, I'll just get in trouble.
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Fair enough. But you only make yourself and your position look bad. I don't agree with Dragon Lady. But she has a point, we don't demand the vast majority of the population change their worldview to accommodate other similarly small groups of people. Why is it being demanded in the case of trans people?
 
Tony said:
Fair enough. But you only make yourself and your position look bad.
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I'm not really here to make myself look good or anyone else look bad.

Anyone that can't see how morally bankrupt the posited argument is isn't someone about whose opinion I give a flying one. This is a message board on the internet, not the House of Commons - I don't feel obliged to interact with those that - see just talking to you about it makes me nearly break the MA.


I don't agree with Dragon Lady. But she has a point, we don't demand the vast majority of the population change their worldview to accommodate other similarly small groups of people. Why is it being demanded in the case of trans people?
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Anyone that thinks 'that makes me uncomfortable' stands alone as a solid and convincing reason why others should conform to their wants really isn't someone I want to spend any time on.
 
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