Today's Mass Shooting

[Bogative]

Las Vegas, Nevada

1 killed, 6 wounded. The six wounded were all teenagers, the dead person's info hasn't been released yet.

A group of people were drinking and loitering in a parking lot when a fight broke out. One of the people involved in the fight went to a car and retrieved a gun and opened the fire on the crowd. Someone in the crowd pulled their own gun and killed the original shooter.

 

[bluesjnr]

There was definitely a reason column on one of the forms I would complete, you as an applicant/holder would not see the other forums. Each application and renewal was a book of forms, which was religiously checked to ensure every single part was completed in full.

I think I may have misunderstood you. I thought you meant a "reason" column on the actual cert.

 

[Garrison]

You notice the one major difference in the UK is that after a tragedy like this both major political parties want the gun licensing laws reviewed and there's no one throwing a tantrum because they might not be able to keep the armoury of a small nation in their basement.

 

[Nessie]

I doubt there will be any legislative change. Shotguns are needed by the aristocracy for grouse shoots and saw off shotgun bank robberies are a thing of the past. There may be changes to licensing procedures. Shotguns need one referee, whereas Sec 1 firearms need two. Two referees means it is more likely the police will be contacted about worrying behaviour, which is the only realistic way that the police can get to know about odd rants on social media etc.

 

[bluesjnr]

I doubt there will be any legislative change. Shotguns are needed by the aristocracy for grouse shoots and saw off shotgun bank robberies are a thing of the past. There may be changes to licensing procedures. Shotguns need one referee, whereas Sec 1 firearms need two. Two referees means it is more likely the police will be contacted about worrying behaviour, which is the only realistic way that the police can get to know about odd rants on social media etc.

Bear in mind ones GP is now required to complete an assessment as part of the licencing procedure. Now, us old hands might get by with a nod and wink to our local GP but new applicants, particularly younger ones, may well be scrutinised more tightly. The GP is expected, in all cases, to provide general medical information. This information consists of a factual report based on the applicant’s medical history and may also include a generic question asking if the GP has 'concerns' regarding the issuing of a firearms license. Things like depression and alcoholism can have an impact on a decision.

This fact makes one wonder what the Plymouth shooters medical history looks like. I'll bet there is one GP who woke up heard the news and thought, "what the **** did I write?".

 

[Nessie]

Bear in mind ones GP is now required to complete an assessment as part of the licencing procedure. Now, us old hands might get by with a nod and wink to our local GP but new applicants, particularly younger ones, may well be scrutinised more tightly. The GP is expected, in all cases, to provide general medical information. This information consists of a factual report based on the applicant’s medical history and may also include a generic question asking if the GP has 'concerns' regarding the issuing of a firearms license. Things like depression and alcoholism can have an impact on a decision.

This fact makes one wonder what the Plymouth shooters medical history looks like. I'll bet there is one GP who woke up heard the news and thought, "what the **** did I write?".

The person (could be a police officer or a civilian employee, we had both) who processed the application), the person who signed off the application, the GP, the referee and the person who signed off on returning the gun will, I am sure, be feeling pretty sick at the moment, even if they did their job properly.

I did literally hundreds of firearms licences, and only once was I contacted by a referee who was worried about a licence holder, who agreed to surrender his gun and licence, due to drink and depression issues.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I doubt there will be any legislative change. Shotguns are needed by the aristocracy for grouse shoots and saw off shotgun bank robberies are a thing of the past. There may be changes to licensing procedures. Shotguns need one referee, whereas Sec 1 firearms need two. Two referees means it is more likely the police will be contacted about worrying behaviour, which is the only realistic way that the police can get to know about odd rants on social media etc.

(For the record I'm not a shooter or firearms license holder although I have shot at targets & enjoyed the experience. My dog is terrified of the sound of shotguns so all the shooting around my area is really unwelcome from my POV & I disagree with bloodsports on principal)

I agree. This event was tragic, but with all sympathy to those directly effected I don't think there is a problem with our licensing system that desperately needs addressing, doubtless there will be lessons to be learned from the return of his license but objectively people being killed with legal guns in the UK is rare to the point of being lost in the noise (for context about 17 people a year are killed by cows in the UK) hence of course the prominence of the story. Despite the emotion I think this is an 'if it ain't broke' situation.

 

[Checkmite]

So he was a murderous 'incel' because he was a virgin aged 22?

Well, the whole "incel" radicalization pipeline directly targets people that age, and even younger.

Society as a whole, I think, has moved or is moving away from the whole "if you haven't had sex before adulthood you're abnormal" thing, but "incel"-ism doubles down on that perception because you need to feel you have been slighted in order to be effectively radicalized.

 

[Bogative]

4 more not-RMVE-WS shootings to add to the tally.

Trenton, New Jersey

4 wounded.


Indianapolis, Indiana

1 killed, 5 wounded.

Shooting occurred in a parking lot during a gathering at 5 a.m. in the morning.


Akron, Ohio

5 wounded.

One of the victims was a 16-year-old girl, the shooting occurred outside da club.


Brooklyn, New York

4 wounded.

Not many details of the shooting, the reporters were too busy reporting on the other six shootings that happened last night in New York City.

 

[Bogative]

People in New Jersey really know how to party:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/23/us/new-jersey-house-shooting/index.html

An update on this three month old shooting that no one remembers or cares about because it didn't involve right-wingers. The shooting left 3 dead and 11 wounded at a house party with hundreds of people gathered during the world's worst ever pandemic ever ever.

One of the wounded was Zedekiah Holmes – his sister, who was 19, was one of the people killed during the shooting. Young Mr. Holmes was arrested and charged with murdering two and wounding four at the same party.

It turns out young Mr. Holmes was involved in a drive-by shooting that turned into a rolling gun battle one month earlier. The person he shot at during the drive-by refused to cooperate with police. Two people are dead and four wounded because '**** them police'.

 

[Vixen]

Re the highlighted: no, it doesn't in and of itself indicate schizophrenia. If it did you'd have to diagnose every satanist and spiritualist as schizophrenic, which they aren't. Not to mention all those religionistas who pray to their god and expect results.

And the way certainly English and Welsh consent laws run it is not possible for his mother to request treatment for him, as, absent factors leading to the application of the Mental Health Act or him having been assessed as incapable of giving consent under the provisions of the Mental Capacity Act, he will be deemed a consenting adult.

Sure, I was making sweeping generalisations but IMV looking at some cases, such as the guy who killed Lee Rigby, it seemed to me he clearly had symptoms of classic insanity as did various others who were deemed sane because the public were so incensed by the crime and it saw being seen as having 'diminished responsibility' was somehow their 'getting a way with it'. Of course, one can't diagnose someone from their armchair but just as a matter of being in a chat forum, I do look at this guy responsible for the Keyham murders and wonder if he has some congenital defect as he doesn't look quite normal.

As you know, some chromosome abnormalities can result in a higher propensity to certain types crime, usually in connection to propensity to violence and sudden bursts of anger. One congenital condition causes men with a particular type to be prone to extreme violence after imbibing large amounts of alcohol, as discovered in prison studies. Some researchers claim that up to one-third of all prisoners show sociopathic tendencies.

This guy's mother may not be able to force her son to have mental health treatment, but the police do have the power to section people under the Mental Health Act if they are behaving psychotically. Problem with this perpetrator is that merely being an obnoxious incel misogynist is not seen by them as a manifestation of psychosis or a mental health crisis.

Maybe the law should changes so that someone's loved ones can get the type of support they need if they ring an emergency mental health helpline.

 

[HansMustermann]

Full bore or saboted slugs cannot be held on a SC, requiring a FC. Some exotic types are illegal in general without Home Office approval.
In general shot cartridges of whatever type can be purchased and held without restriction.

Considering how trivial it is to reload a cartridge with anything you wish, or the fact that stuff like sabot slugs aren't even the most dangerous stuff unless you want to defeat body armour, it seems rather optimistic a classification. I mean, sure, you can load it with 000 buck pellets, which have larger diameter than what WW2 rifles shot, and are considered overkill even for hunting deer by most hunters, but thank <bleep> you have a piece of paper that says you can't put a sabot slug in it

 

[HansMustermann]

This guy's mother may not be able to force her son to have mental health treatment, but the police do have the power to section people under the Mental Health Act if they are behaving psychotically. Problem with this perpetrator is that merely being an obnoxious incel misogynist is not seen by them as a manifestation of psychosis or a mental health crisis.

Well, the flip side is that the mom also doesn't have the qualification to diagnose mental illness, unless I somehow missed her being a psychiatrist in the news. So just some Jane Random saying that a guy is crazy, even if it's her son, you know, she may be right, or may be wrong. And as we've seen in the Britney Spears case (albeit in a different country), even a parent may just try to game the system for their own benefit. There's a reason why the Mental Health Act says you have to be assessed by a team of professionals, out of which at least two different doctors must agree that it's necessary.

Another flip side is that even the Mental Health Act only says you can be forced into a hospital if your own life or health are at risk, or there's a threat to other people. If you're just being an obnoxious prick online, no, that's not even remotely enough to qualify. Even if you agree that some guy has been posting some really crazy stuff (incel or otherwise,) as long as they're not saying that they're going to do something about it, no, you can't force them into a hospital.

I mean, if we were to start putting people in mental hospitals just because they're obnoxious online, there would go half the player base of Counter Strike and other competitive online shooters

Especially if we're talking section 2, which would be the case here, which means they're not even diagnosed with any mental illness yet, but they're an imminent enough risk to need to be put into a hospital FOR the assessment. Yeah, it better need some damn good reasons for that kind of decision, since you're potentially putting a perfectly sane person through that, just because some non-qualified other person said so.

But basically the short version is that it's not as simple as just sectioning everyone the instant someone else said they're crazy. You also have to consider the rights of the people who could be wrongly put through that. You can't design a system which can turn into "eat your veggies and clean your room, or I'm calling the mental hospital"

 

[Vixen]

Well, the flip side is that the mom also doesn't have the qualification to diagnose mental illness, unless I somehow missed her being a psychiatrist in the news. So just some Jane Random saying that a guy is crazy, even if it's her son, you know, she may be right, or may be wrong. And as we've seen in the Britney Spears case (albeit in a different country), even a parent may just try to game the system for their own benefit. There's a reason why the Mental Health Act says you have to be assessed by a team of professionals, out of which at least two different doctors must agree that it's necessary.

Another flip side is that even the Mental Health Act only says you can be forced into a hospital if your own life or health are at risk, or there's a threat to other people. If you're just being an obnoxious prick online, no, that's not even remotely enough to qualify. Even if you agree that some guy has been posting some really crazy stuff (incel or otherwise,) as long as they're not saying that they're going to do something about it, no, you can't force them into a hospital.

I mean, if we were to start putting people in mental hospitals just because they're obnoxious online, there would go half the player base of Counter Strike and other competitive online shooters

Especially if we're talking section 2, which would be the case here, which means they're not even diagnosed with any mental illness yet, but they're an imminent enough risk to need to be put into a hospital FOR the assessment. Yeah, it better need some damn good reasons for that kind of decision, since you're potentially putting a perfectly sane person through that, just because some non-qualified other person said so.

But basically the short version is that it's not as simple as just sectioning everyone the instant someone else said they're crazy. You also have to consider the rights of the people who could be wrongly put through that. You can't design a system which can turn into "eat your veggies and clean your room, or I'm calling the mental hospital"

But I do think that someone in great distress and a state of urgency ringing up the NHS begging for help with a close relative should at least trigger a home visit by, say, a social worker or community police officer just to check if there is a danger or high risk of harm.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Sure, I was making sweeping generalisations but IMV looking at some cases, such as the guy who killed Lee Rigby, it seemed to me he clearly had symptoms of classic insanity as did various others who were deemed sane because the public were so incensed by the crime and it saw being seen as having 'diminished responsibility' was somehow their 'getting a way with it'. Of course, one can't diagnose someone from their armchair but just as a matter of being in a chat forum, I do look at this guy responsible for the Keyham murders and wonder if he has some congenital defect as he doesn't look quite normal.

As you know, some chromosome abnormalities can result in a higher propensity to certain types crime, usually in connection to propensity to violence and sudden bursts of anger. One congenital condition causes men with a particular type to be prone to extreme violence after imbibing large amounts of alcohol, as discovered in prison studies. Some researchers claim that up to one-third of all prisoners show sociopathic tendencies.

This guy's mother may not be able to force her son to have mental health treatment, but the police do have the power to section people under the Mental Health Act if they are behaving psychotically. Problem with this perpetrator is that merely being an obnoxious incel misogynist is not seen by them as a manifestation of psychosis or a mental health crisis.

Maybe the law should changes so that someone's loved ones can get the type of support they need if they ring an emergency mental health helpline.

Taking these one at a time...

First one - nonsensical. How the buggery bollocks did you manage to diagnose someone you never met?

Second one - oops, you just contradicted yourself, as you were quite happy just above to do exactly that.

Third one - oh, look, you're doing it again with another person you've never met.

Fourth one - because being an "obnoxious incel misogynist" is not a sign of mental illness; it's called being a twat.

Fifth one - slippery slope you don't want to start going down there. Far too much scope for abuse and misuse.

And, given that I did actually mention the Mental Health Act as one of the ways in which yer man here could have been assessed by MH services, I'm well aware of the (limited) powers the Act gives the police.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

We have one in San Antonio today that doesn't fit the mold:

An argument between two people at a bar in San Antonio, Texas, ended in a mass shooting early Sunday, with three people killed and two others gravely wounded, San Antonio Police Chief William McManus said.

More dead than wounded. The wounded being seriously wounded and might die. The shooter escapes. Sailor's Law of Mass Shootings predicts that this shooting might involve one of those elusive violent White people.

Random thought: Gotta love the name of that bar. I wonder if they'll change it?

 

[Bogative]

We have one in San Antonio today that doesn't fit the mold:

This one had me scratching my head earlier today. When I clicked on the source at GVA, it was linked directly to CNN which rarely happens in these low-profile mass shootings. Then I read "long gun" and understood why.



But Chicago!

4 wounded.

Four people were standing in front of a residence when they were each shot by an unknown offender(s).

Indianapolis, Indiana again.

1 killed, 3 wounded including a 12-year-old boy.

GVA has it listed as a "House party/Block party/Park party" shooting.

 

[Bogative]

Detroit, Michigan

1 killed, 3 wounded.

A subject involved in an altercation at a bar went to his vehicle and retrieved a firearm and returned for retaliation.

 

[plague311]

An update on this three month old shooting that no one remembers or cares about because it didn't involve right-wingers. The shooting left 3 dead and 11 wounded at a house party with hundreds of people gathered during the world's worst ever pandemic ever ever.

Not everyone holds on to anger, hatred, and angst the same.

You need this because you have to prove "others" wrong. You need others to think or view **** the same way you do. You're goal is to get people to see racism the way you see racism. You spend hours looking up posts for this thread in an attempt to just get other people to understand that racism is justified because it's "them" that are killing people. It's not the police at fault. If those black people would just stop being such a problem, then cops wouldn't feel threatened, and no one would get shot. I assume that's your point anyway. You never actually make one. You just do this **** every week.

That's tough. I can't imagine surrounding myself, repeatedly researching, death every week just to try and score political points.

 

[catsmate]

Considering how trivial it is to reload a cartridge with anything you wish, or the fact that stuff like sabot slugs aren't even the most dangerous stuff unless you want to defeat body armour, it seems rather optimistic a classification. I mean, sure, you can load it with 000 buck pellets, which have larger diameter than what WW2 rifles shot, and are considered overkill even for hunting deer by most hunters, but thank <bleep> you have a piece of paper that says you can't put a sabot slug in it

True, though if found your license will be invalidated. Also more of the gunfondler types wouldn't be able to create a workable full bore slug, let alone a saboted one.