Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[Thermal]

I’ve stated a solution already.



That should work regardless of race. But if not why not?

I think where he is going with this argument is to say that the cause of most body bags being filled is a specific hyper violent demographic. Spree shooters are relatively rare (although I heartily agree with the restriction proposals), but the main cause of casualties are a block that uses deadly force with abandon. Many of Bogative's recountings involve arguments at a party, or club, or pizza parlor, very often involving young black men.

But it's so hard to talk about this without sounding like a Klansman, isn't it? Posters shy away from a black shooter, because they don't want to sound racist. And I get that. Its so much easier and PC to openly spew bile against a murderer who is not part of a historically oppressed demographic.

Yet by the same token, it's weird to wring hands and get highly vocal about condemning a white spree shooter while turning a blind eye to the overwhelming number of black shooters. Claiming they are "gang related", when most of the reports say not a word about gangs, is just as bad a stereotype. If a report says gunfire erupted at a child's birthday party, you have to have a pretty low view of black people to assume it is because "they are all in gangs".

Whatever Bogative's motivations, his factual point is solid. A white guy with an AR is not remotely the greatest threat to American safety. A young black man with a handgun is, and his statistically black victims are just as American and valuable as the spree shooters'.

 

[Bogative]

Back to the topic.

3 killed, 11 wounded in a downtown Philadelphia not-a-mass-shooting mass shooting.
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/14-shot-3-dead-in-mass-shooting-on-south-street/3261464/

The Philly shooting overshadows the Phoenix not-a-mass-shooting mass shooting which had 1 killed and 8 wounded and the other four reported not-a-mass-shooting mass shootings this weekend which had 2 killed and 17 wounded.


Including the Buffalo mass shooting, there have been 42 total mass shootings in the US since May 14.

I'm supposed to ignore 40 of them and only focus on 2 of them for… reasons.

 

[EaglePuncher]

See, it doesn't work that way.

The idea is to generate discussion, and propose root causes and solutions. If facts are presented, they create their own point. Then you have to figure out the "why" and the "how".

Not to say, "So...and...you come up with a solution now!" Or, "you're a racist!".

I have already stated my general thoughts about gun control issues. As far as why blacks are doing so much shooting? I don't know. But there are probably multiple issues, and the culture is definitely glorifying violence.
What is your proposed solution to this issue of overrepresented mass shootings involving blacks? Do you agree that it is a much more statistically significant problem than the occasional school shooting?

He says, while nervously thinking about the 43 guns in his house and what could happen if THEY took them away. Priceless.

 

[Bogative]

2 killed, 12 wounded during a not-a-mass-shooting mass shooting in Chattanooga. From initial reports, this shooting can be ignored by the left because it doesn't fit the narrative.
https://www.wvlt.tv/2022/06/05/police-tennessee-shooting-leads-3-dead-14-injured-2/

It was just last week when five 15-year-olds and a 13-year-old were shot by a 15-year-old in downtown Chattanooga. We all know why that shooting only got one brief mention on this thread.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2314991

May as well throw in the shooting that occurred during a graduation party in Summerton, South Carolina last night. One 32-year-old woman was killed, 7 wounded including a 12-year-old, a 13-year-old, a 14-year-old, two 15-year-olds and a 17-year-old. Or as some not so smart cookies would say on this board 'gang bangers and hardened criminals killing each other' because there was gang involvement.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2321593

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

.... Whatever Bogative's motivations, his factual point is solid. A white guy with an AR is not remotely the greatest threat to American safety. A young black man with a handgun is, and his statistically black victims are just as American and valuable as the spree shooters'.

The problem here is this whataboutism is used to distract people from addressing assault weapons as one problem that could easily be addressed.

Throwing whataboutism out there distracts the discussion away from these mass victim shooters.

 

[Cain]

I couldn't tell you because I ignore the crap they pump out due to their willingness to lie and deceive people in order to push their gun grabbing agenda.

Which only compounds the foolishness of bringing it up.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter if they are plotted or not, a school shooting is a school shooting no matter the motivation.

Well, that might matter to the person you are responding to because you run the risk of talking past each other. From what you quoted, I took him to mean attacking a school.

I think you calling me a racist for posting facts about school shootings is a his poor form of argumentation, but whatevs.

Maybe you'd prefer to think this because it helps bolster (in your mind) your misguided arguments. The central problem is what I've helpfully italicized above. As much as you may like, it's a mistake to confuse what and why.

 

[Cain]

The issue is poverty. Something else that American politicians are going to do nothing anout.

In Ricky Gervais' recent stand-up special SuperNature, he asks, "What makes us? Is it our genetics or the environment? The old nature versus nurture argument. The psychologist Piaget was once asked, 'What’s more important for the intellect of a person? Nature or nurture?' And he replied, 'What’s more important for the area of a field?' Length or width?? All right, if you don’t know the answer, just ******* say... [audience laughs]"


There was an interesting post by W.D. Clinger in another thread comparing the U.S. Virgin Islands to the British Virgin Islands. As he notes, however, these are very small samples.

ETA: With respect to gun violence, I don't think the factors are race and poverty. More likely, they're tied up with poverty/drugs/organized crime/gun availability, where many of these things feed on each other.

 

[Thermal]

The problem here is this whataboutism is used to distract people from addressing assault weapons as one problem that could easily be addressed.

Throwing whataboutism out there distracts the discussion away from these mass victim shooters.

I get what you are saying, but it is hardly "whataboutism" to point out the overwhelming majority compared to a very few.

A competitively rare spree shooter strikes a chord on the forum. Like "holy ****, that could have been me or my kid being shot!" And I totally get that. But what makes me a little queasy is the blaise indifference to bodies being stacked like cordwood, but dismissed as a concern apparently because they are largely black bodies.

The problem to focus on is not ARs. Its guns on the street at all. They are not a net benefit.

 

[dudalb]

Back to the topic.

3 killed, 11 wounded in a downtown Philadelphia not-a-mass-shooting mass shooting.
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/14-shot-3-dead-in-mass-shooting-on-south-street/3261464/

The Philly shooting overshadows the Phoenix not-a-mass-shooting mass shooting which had 1 killed and 8 wounded and the other four reported not-a-mass-shooting mass shootings this weekend which had 2 killed and 17 wounded.


Including the Buffalo mass shooting, there have been 42 total mass shootings in the US since May 14.

I'm supposed to ignore 40 of them and only focus on 2 of them for… reasons.

Excuse while I vomit at this verbal game BS.

 

[Warp12]

A competitively rare spree shooter strikes a chord on the forum. Like "holy ****, that could have been me or my kid being shot!" And I totally get that. But what makes me a little queasy is the blaise indifference to bodies being stacked like cordwood, but dismissed as a concern apparently because they are largely black bodies.

Or the concern for black victims seems to only be high when it is a white shooter; is another unflattering angle. Some seem to handwave away the black mass shootings/street violence as insignificant. As smartcooky said earlier:

Nope, but if they want to, I will not shed a tear nor lose any sleep over it. It doesn't matter whether your skin is white, black, brown, red, yellow or orange...

Being a criminal is a choice! Taking drugs is a choice! Murdering others is a choice!

I strongly suspect that if the bulk of these mass shootings were whites killing and injuring blacks, the outrage and perceived importance would be vastly different (I mean, haven't we seen this?). But since it is largely black-on-black crime, it is different...I guess?

 

[Dr.Sid]

If only all the shooters were black, we would have solution in no time .. do you remember ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I get what you are saying, but it is hardly "whataboutism" to point out the overwhelming majority compared to a very few.
A competitively rare spree shooter strikes a chord on the forum. Like "holy ****, that could have been me or my kid being shot!" And I totally get that. But what makes me a little queasy is the blaise indifference to bodies being stacked like cordwood, but dismissed as a concern apparently because they are largely black bodies.

The problem to focus on is not ARs. Its guns on the street at all. They are not a net benefit.

Why should we investigate the cause of airplane crashes when auto crashes kill so many more people? Why spend millions saving a premie and relatively small amounts on infants' health in impoverished families? Why spend millions keeping people alive in their last 6 months of life and relatively little keeping adults healthy during the last few years of their lives?

You might have answers, and you might not agree with the imbalanced investments or you might say we can address more than one problem at a time.

The point is, the examples are 2 different things. You don't ignore one issue because the other similar issue costs more or kills more people.

Anyone is welcome to address the problems with guns and murders, they are obviously welcome here to start a thread on the matter. But to claim it's not whataboutism because both issues involve guns and deaths isn't valid. They are very different things with different causes and different solutions.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Or the concern for black victims seems to only be high when it is a white shooter; is another unflattering angle. Some seem to handwave away the black mass shootings/street violence as insignificant. As smartcooky said earlier:

Nonsense. Because I'm more invested in infectious disease (my occupation) doesn't mean I'm indifferent to cancer. I doubt many here (if any) are indifferent to street violence. And as for blacks, I've invested some time and money in the school to prison pipeline. That doesn't mean I'm indifferent to what happens after.

I strongly suspect that if the bulk of these mass shootings were whites killing and injuring blacks, the outrage and perceived importance would be vastly different (I mean, haven't we seen this?). But since it is largely black-on-black crime, it is different...I guess?

See my above post. You are bringing up whataboutism because it's easier to change the subject than to address banning assault weapons and large capacity clips.

See how that works, I can attribute motive to your actions too. You are indifferent to these mass shooters.

 

[angrysoba]

I think where he is going with this argument is to say that the cause of most body bags being filled is a specific hyper violent demographic. Spree shooters are relatively rare (although I heartily agree with the restriction proposals), but the main cause of casualties are a block that uses deadly force with abandon. Many of Bogative's recountings involve arguments at a party, or club, or pizza parlor, very often involving young black men.

But it's so hard to talk about this without sounding like a Klansman, isn't it? Posters shy away from a black shooter, because they don't want to sound racist. And I get that. Its so much easier and PC to openly spew bile against a murderer who is not part of a historically oppressed demographic.

Yet by the same token, it's weird to wring hands and get highly vocal about condemning a white spree shooter while turning a blind eye to the overwhelming number of black shooters. Claiming they are "gang related", when most of the reports say not a word about gangs, is just as bad a stereotype. If a report says gunfire erupted at a child's birthday party, you have to have a pretty low view of black people to assume it is because "they are all in gangs".

Whatever Bogative's motivations, his factual point is solid. A white guy with an AR is not remotely the greatest threat to American safety. A young black man with a handgun is, and his statistically black victims are just as American and valuable as the spree shooters'.

Will restricting access to firearms not also reduce shootings by black people as well as school shootings or other mass shootings that feature people of different ethnicities?

Either it has some effect on reducing the numbers of killings or not? Some people seem to think that reducing the numbers of killings by restricting access to guns is not the point. You seem to be saying that the POINT is that young black men are disproportionately the perpetrators.

Thermal, if restricting access to guns is not the solution, and not even part of the solution, then what is the solution? Out with it, man!

 

[smartcooky]

See, it doesn't work that way.

The idea is to generate discussion, and propose root causes and solutions. If facts are presented, they create their own point. Then you have to figure out the "why" and the "how".

Not to say, "So...and...you come up with a solution now!" Or, "you're a racist!".

I have already stated my general thoughts about gun control issues. As far as why blacks are doing so much shooting? I don't know. But there are probably multiple issues, and the culture is definitely glorifying violence.

What is your proposed solution to this issue of overrepresented mass shootings involving blacks? Do you agree that it is a much more statistically significant problem than the occasional school shooting?

Of course, you can also dodge the question, as you have shown here.

 

[angrysoba]

Back to the topic.

3 killed, 11 wounded in a downtown Philadelphia not-a-mass-shooting mass shooting.
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/14-shot-3-dead-in-mass-shooting-on-south-street/3261464/

The Philly shooting overshadows the Phoenix not-a-mass-shooting mass shooting which had 1 killed and 8 wounded and the other four reported not-a-mass-shooting mass shootings this weekend which had 2 killed and 17 wounded.


Including the Buffalo mass shooting, there have been 42 total mass shootings in the US since May 14.

I'm supposed to ignore 40 of them and only focus on 2 of them for… reasons.

So what are you going to DO about it?

 

[angrysoba]

I get what you are saying, but it is hardly "whataboutism" to point out the overwhelming majority compared to a very few.

A competitively rare spree shooter strikes a chord on the forum. Like "holy ****, that could have been me or my kid being shot!" And I totally get that. But what makes me a little queasy is the blaise indifference to bodies being stacked like cordwood, but dismissed as a concern apparently because they are largely black bodies.

The problem to focus on is not ARs. Its guns on the street at all. They are not a net benefit.

Or the concern for black victims seems to only be high when it is a white shooter; is another unflattering angle. Some seem to handwave away the black mass shootings/street violence as insignificant. As smartcooky said earlier:




I strongly suspect that if the bulk of these mass shootings were whites killing and injuring blacks, the outrage and perceived importance would be vastly different (I mean, haven't we seen this?). But since it is largely black-on-black crime, it is different...I guess?

The solution, guys? We don’t need a long rumination on your feelings? We want to know what the **** you intend to do about this. Any reason why you keep avoiding saying this?

 

[smartcooky]

If only all the shooters were black, we would have solution in no time .. do you remember ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act

"Both Republicans and Democrats in California supported increased gun control, as did the National Rifle Association of America. Governor Ronald Reagan, who was coincidentally present on the capitol lawn when the protesters arrived, later commented that he saw "no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons" and that guns were a "ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will."


This must have been in an alternate timeline!

 

[smartcooky]

Why should we investigate the cause of airplane crashes when auto crashes kill so many more people? Why spend millions saving a premie and relatively small amounts on infants' health in impoverished families? Why spend millions keeping people alive in their last 6 months of life and relatively little keeping adults healthy during the last few years of their lives?

You might have answers, and you might not agree with the imbalanced investments or you might say we can address more than one problem at a time.

The point is, the examples are 2 different things. You don't ignore one issue because the other similar issue costs more or kills more people.

Anyone is welcome to address the problems with guns and murders, they are obviously welcome here to start a thread on the matter. But to claim it's not whataboutism because both issues involve guns and deaths isn't valid. They are very different things with different causes and different solutions.

This just smashed the nail 100% square on the head and belted it home with a single blow.... but you will never get the Bogatives and the Warp12s of this world to agree, because it doesn't fit their chosen agenda.

 

[smartcooky]

The solution, guys? We don’t need a long rumination on your feelings? We want to know what the **** you intend to do about this. Any reason why you keep avoiding saying this?

Its because they don't want to say the quiet part out loud!