Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[Thermal]

It hasn't been confirmed how they were killed and since the convict was on the loose for some time before entering the complex it is more likely he stole or acquired the weapon beforehand (perhaps from the neighbor's house he previously burglarized) Still, it is a pretty strong counter the NRAist argument that AR-15s are necessary for self defense, certainly didn't help the Collins family any, and he may have targeted them believing they had a weapons cache.

You sure about that? I'll betcha that once the dust settles, gun yahoos will be screaming from the rooftops that this is a case study for needing more guns, on the hip and at the ready at all times. No more of this namby-pamby safe storage whining. You need to be ready to kill, 24/7, without a moments notice.

 

[Checkmite]

It hasn't been confirmed how they were killed and since the convict was on the loose for some time before entering the complex it is more likely he stole or acquired the weapon beforehand (perhaps from the neighbor's house he previously burglarized)

Police have already confirmed that when they found him and engaged him outside San Antonio, the weapons he had with him (which he shot at them with) were taken from the house of the family that had been killed, same as the truck.

I suppose it's possible that he killed the family with guns from elsewhere, and then stolen their guns, and also got rid of the gun(s) he already had for unknown reasons, but that seems a bit convoluted.

 

[stanfr]

You sure about that? I'll betcha that once the dust settles, gun yahoos will be screaming from the rooftops that this is a case study for needing more guns, on the hip and at the ready at all times. No more of this namby-pamby safe storage whining. You need to be ready to kill, 24/7, without a moments notice.

Well the convict was a member of the Mexican Mafia, so more likely the screaming will be "build the wall" but yeah, that too.

 

[stanfr]

Police have already confirmed that when they found him and engaged him outside San Antonio, the weapons he had with him (which he shot at them with) were taken from the house of the family that had been killed, same as the truck.

I suppose it's possible that he killed the family with guns from elsewhere, and then stolen their guns, and also got rid of the gun(s) he already had for unknown reasons, but that seems a bit convoluted.

Depends partly on whether the family was home when he broke in--i am not sure about that detail. If they were home, then it seems convoluted he would somehow be able to fend off 5 of them while searching for presumably unloaded weapons. From what I know of convicts (as an ex-public defender) the first thing any escapee does is acquire a weapon, then more weapons. It is highly unlikely he was unarmed after previously being on the loose for hours...let alone days.

ETA: Ok some sources imply the murderer was already hiding in the cabin--if that is the case it seems plausible he used the family's weapons against them
EATA: Well it keeps getting more unclear--Texas law officials confirmed that the family was in the cabin for several hours before they were killed, but also it is possible the convict had previously broken into the cabin.
Bottom line--too little info to claim that it was "likely" they were killed with the family owned guns.

 

[smartcooky]

I assure you that I, at least, never lie or deceive in order to push my gun grabbing agenda.

And "gun grabbing" is very misleading. Neither I nor most politicians would actually propose "grabbing" guns. I, and the politicians I applaud, would, however, make it difficult to buy any gun. I would make it very, very, difficult to carry a gun in public. I would make it almost impossible to buy certain types of guns.

But that is precisely the scare-mongering narrative of the "OMG they're coming to take my guns.... FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS YOU SOCIALIST, COMMUNIST, LIBRUL, PINKO FAGGOTS" crowd.

 

[smartcooky]

You sure about that? I'll betcha that once the dust settles, gun yahoos will be screaming from the rooftops that this is a case study for needing more guns, on the hip and at the ready at all times. No more of this namby-pamby safe storage whining. You need to be ready to kill, 24/7, without a moments notice.

Of course, if everyone kept their guns is a ******* gun safe, the scumbag would not have found it so easy to get his hands on them... but you know "muh guns" and all that crap!

 

[angrysoba]

Thank you for this investigation. I am sure that many others here also appreciate facts over fantasy. Perhaps that group isn't as vocal, but surely it must exist.

Bogative appears to like blaming black people for gun deaths, and you appear to appreciate it.

But here is a question for you and Bogative? What is your point with this and what is your proposed solution?

For many people, the obvious solution is to increase restrictions on guns, particularly those kinds of guns that can kill a lot of people in a very short space of time.

I think that would be an obvious solution, but other people seem to be intent on finding reasons why it won't work or must not work.

But what is your solution? If you see everything as race-based, is your solution race-based? If so, what is it? Don't think you should be given credit for your "facts over fantasy" unless you are also prepared to give a full-throated voice to your actual opinions, otherwise you are not the brave truth teller you pretend you are.

So, come on, guys, spit it out. What is your solution?

 

[smartcooky]

Bogative appears to like blaming black people for gun deaths, and you appear to appreciate it.

But here is a question for you and Bogative? What is your point with this and what is your proposed solution?

For many people, the obvious solution is to increase restrictions on guns, particularly those kinds of guns that can kill a lot of people in a very short space of time.

I think that would be an obvious solution, but other people seem to be intent on finding reasons why it won't work or must not work.

But what is your solution? If you see everything as race-based, is your solution race-based? If so, what is it? Don't think you should be given credit for your "facts over fantasy" unless you are also prepared to give a full-throated voice to your actual opinions, otherwise you are not the brave truth teller you pretend you are.

So, come on, guys, spit it out. What is your solution?

I'm sure it will be "deport all the mud-people back to Africa" or something like it

 

[angrysoba]

I'm sure it will be "deport all the mud-people back to Africa" or something like it

If that's what they believe, they should say it out loud.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Well, obviously we have to have strong background checks for gun sales to prevent all those violent minorities from getting weapons.

 

[Warp12]

Bogative appears to like blaming black people for gun deaths, and you appear to appreciate it.

But here is a question for you and Bogative? What is your point with this and what is your proposed solution?

For many people, the obvious solution is to increase restrictions on guns, particularly those kinds of guns that can kill a lot of people in a very short space of time.

I think that would be an obvious solution, but other people seem to be intent on finding reasons why it won't work or must not work.

But what is your solution? If you see everything as race-based, is your solution race-based? If so, what is it? Don't think you should be given credit for your "facts over fantasy" unless you are also prepared to give a full-throated voice to your actual opinions, otherwise you are not the brave truth teller you pretend you are.

So, come on, guys, spit it out. What is your solution?

Forget about blame. It is hard enough to just get people to accept the facts. You can't address a problem without recognizing it.

I don't see everything as race-based. I don't think a black baby comes out of the womb with a more violent nature than a white baby. I don't think these shootings take place simply because of skin color. But the stats say there is a problem, and like it or not that problem is massively overrepresented among blacks. But as usual, rather than focus on the real issues we focus on some things that are statistically insignificant.

I'm already on the record as supporting registration, tiered licensing, training, waiting periods/checks etc.. But, even if you do these things, they aren't going to address the reasons that blacks are so overrepresented in shootings/homicides.

Of course, some consider such discussion taboo. They want to avoid it at all costs; but comically they think they are having serious discussions about limiting mass shootings. They want to narrow the topic so much as to make it useless; as I say, cut out all of the school/spree shootings and you have not made even a ding in the 20k homicides per year, nor numbers of mass shootings.

With attempts to narrowly focus the topic to such a degree, who is it that has the real "agenda" here? Personally, if someone wants to start an ultra-narrowly focused thread, I say go for it. Then they can focus their thought-policing and censorship attempts to that thread.

 

[Sideroxylon]

The issue is poverty. Something else that American politicians are going to do nothing anout.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It hasn't been confirmed how they were killed and since the convict was on the loose for some time before entering the complex it is more likely he stole or acquired the weapon beforehand (perhaps from the neighbor's house he previously burglarized) Still, it is a pretty strong counter the NRAist argument that AR-15s are necessary for self defense, certainly didn't help the Collins family any, and he may have targeted them believing they had a weapons cache.

It shows why being armed at all times is important.
If they had a carry pistol on them or an AR they could have got off some retaliatory fire.
Remember even hen watching TV make sure you are carrying.

 

[shuttlt]

This is the International Skeptics Forum. A long time ago, before this board became a left-wing echo chamber, if someone were to make a claim like "honkies shoot up schools at a disproportionate percentage" actual skeptics would ask for evidence.

Anymore, the "skeptics" blindly swallow whatever **** is shoveled at them by their political allies.

Instead of wasting my time asking for evidence, I found it myself. The claim he made is false. No need to thank me.

Going through all the circumstances of all the unarmed people shot by police in a random year is similarly illuminating.

 

[catsmate]

That is such a sad and horrible event. It raises the question, how many people have been killed with their own gun vs how many people have successfully defended their lives with their own gun?

IIRR the ratio runs around 80:1.

 

[jimbob]

The issue is poverty. Something else that American politicians are going to do nothing anout.

And this is very clear.

Or, the issue why poorer demographics suffer from more violent crime is due to poverty, but the reason why the US has a higher homicide and suicide rate than other wealthy countries is partly explained by ease of access to firearms

ETA partly explained

 

[angrysoba]

Forget about blame. It is hard enough to just get people to accept the facts. You can't address a problem without recognizing it.

I don't see everything as race-based. I don't think a black baby comes out of the womb with a more violent nature than a white baby. I don't think these shootings take place simply because of skin color. But the stats say there is a problem, and like it or not that problem is massively overrepresented among blacks. But as usual, rather than focus on the real issues we focus on some things that are statistically insignificant.

I'm already on the record as supporting registration, tiered licensing, training, waiting periods/checks etc.. But, even if you do these things, they aren't going to address the reasons that blacks are so overrepresented in shootings/homicides.

Of course, some consider such discussion taboo. They want to avoid it at all costs; but comically they think they are having serious discussions about limiting mass shootings. They want to narrow the topic so much as to make it useless; as I say, cut out all of the school/spree shootings and you have not made even a ding in the 20k homicides per year, nor numbers of mass shootings.

With attempts to narrowly focus the topic to such a degree, who is it that has the real "agenda" here? Personally, if someone wants to start an ultra-narrowly focused thread, I say go for it. Then they can focus their thought-policing and censorship attempts to that thread.

I am more than happy to discuss it. I will repeat...

But here is a question for you and Bogative? What is your point with this and what is your proposed solution?
You have said you just want people to recognize the facts, so okay, and now what?

 

[Warp12]

I am more than happy to discuss it. I will repeat...

But here is a question for you and Bogative? What is your point with this and what is your proposed solution?
You have said you just want people to recognize the facts, so okay, and now what?

See, it doesn't work that way.

The idea is to generate discussion, and propose root causes and solutions. If facts are presented, they create their own point. Then you have to figure out the "why" and the "how".

Not to say, "So...and...you come up with a solution now!" Or, "you're a racist!".

I have already stated my general thoughts about gun control issues. As far as why blacks are doing so much shooting? I don't know. But there are probably multiple issues, and the culture is definitely glorifying violence.

What is your proposed solution to this issue of overrepresented mass shootings involving blacks? Do you agree that it is a much more statistically significant problem than the occasional school shooting?

 

[Andy_Ross]

See, it doesn't work that way.

The idea is to generate discussion, and propose root causes and solutions. If facts are presented, they create their own point. Then you have to figure out the "why" and the "how".

Not to say, "So...and...you come up with a solution now!" Or, "you're a racist!".

I have already stated my general thoughts about gun control issues. As far as why blacks are doing so much shooting? I don't know. But there are probably multiple issues, and the culture is definitely glorifying violence.

What is your proposed solution to this issue of mass shootings involving blacks? Do you agree that it is a much more statistically significant problem than the occasional school shooting?

Easy, restrict easy access to guns for everyone, require proper licensing, registration and background checks.
Stop the sale of semi automatic weapons.

Like just about every other civilised country has done.

 

[angrysoba]

See, it doesn't work that way.

The idea is to generate discussion, and propose root causes and solutions. If facts are presented, they create their own point. Then you have to figure out the "why" and the "how".

Not to say, "So...and...you come up with a solution now!" Or, "you're a racist!".

I have already stated my general thoughts about gun control issues. As far as why blacks are doing so much shooting? I don't know. But there are probably multiple issues, and the culture is definitely glorifying violence.

What is your proposed solution to this issue of overrepresented mass shootings involving blacks? Do you agree that it is a much more statistically significant problem than the occasional school shooting?

I’ve stated a solution already.

For many people, the obvious solution is to increase restrictions on guns, particularly those kinds of guns that can kill a lot of people in a very short space of time.

I think that would be an obvious solution, but other people seem to be intent on finding reasons why it won't work or must not work.

That should work regardless of race. But if not why not?