To Believe or Not to Believe - Is that the question?

As I am new to the thread, I might not have grasped your point yet. I don't see a copout, unless there is some social or cultural involvement with the believers of Xenu. I disagree that one cannot be truly agnostic and do intellectual justice to a belief simultaneously. The only way this could make sense to me is if it is necessary to believe in a god to do it intellectual justice.
I have tried this, when I was younger I realised that to do justice to the ideas of religion, I should give it a go and actively believe. I did this for more than one religion over the years and found afterwards that intellectually it was unnecessary to have done it in terms of cold philosophical analysis. I do not regret it though and found it enriching in my life experience.
I come up against this difficulty all the time here with numerous words. I always make distinction where it seems necessary.

Maybe it depends a bit on what one considers agnosticism to be. To me, agnosticism means allowing the possibility that, since we don't or can't know, therefore some specific thing might exist. If you were to be an agnostic about Xenu you would have, in some real sense, to allow the possibility that the Xenu story is true, and if someone else comes up with a story equally crazy, you'd have to allow the possibility that that one is true. If you say, "that's made up nonsense," then you're not agnostic, even if you realize you can't disprove the nonsense. To meaningfully say you don't know requires also that you don't judge.

I find it actually, functionally impossible to believe on demand. I can try to do intellectual justice to an idea, but it has to stand on its own. I cannot believe in something in order to study it. In fact, I cannot even conceive of how that is possible. In fact it sounds much like the escape clause that paranormal believers often use, that you can't judge a belief unless you believe it first.
 
Maybe it depends a bit on what one considers agnosticism to be. To me, agnosticism means allowing the possibility that, since we don't or can't know, therefore some specific thing might exist. If you were to be an agnostic about Xenu you would have, in some real sense, to allow the possibility that the Xenu story is true, and if someone else comes up with a story equally crazy, you'd have to allow the possibility that that one is true. If you say, "that's made up nonsense," then you're not agnostic, even if you realize you can't disprove the nonsense. To meaningfully say you don't know requires also that you don't judge.

I find it actually, functionally impossible to believe on demand. I can try to do intellectual justice to an idea, but it has to stand on its own. I cannot believe in something in order to study it. In fact, I cannot even conceive of how that is possible. In fact it sounds much like the escape clause that paranormal believers often use, that you can't judge a belief unless you believe it first.

Perhaps the problem is either that your understanding of what Agnosticism is, is faulty, or is not, then there is another way of looking at things but it cannot be referred to as strictly being agnostic.

You said this: "To me, agnosticism means allowing the possibility that, since we don't or can't know, therefore some specific thing might exist."

In relation to any specific god idea, - one can of course delve in and take a good look at what is offered and decide for a number of logical reasons that it is unlikely such a god exists, and choose to disregard that idea of god as being something which actually exists.

One does not have to also form beliefs that the god in question does not exist, or even necessarily get into arguments with those who believe that particular god exists, or does not exist.

One is still not making any statement of belief one way or another. One can say 'I really don't think such a being exists' but never know for sure one way or the other.

Also - on the idea of god(s) in general, one might decide the exact same thing, or decide that all the ideas so far are faulty - or they reflect far too much human vanity, arrogance, posturing etc to seriously consider, but one might also think that one can come up with or come across ideas which are far better ideas which one might consider god(s) are more likely to be like which are nothing much like the popular ideas abounding.

Any god ideas are just that. Ideas. It is illogical and irrational to believe in them. Some god idea(s) which are believed in are acted out and prove to be damaging for that and thus voicing an opinion of protest is the least one can do but even that can get complicated.

Some god ideas are confusing and contradictory. To believe in these ideas requires having to explain the obvious contradictions in a manner that shows clearly that they only appear to be contradictions - which can be part of the process of investigating (to require explanation from those who believe in these ideas) - to hear the explanations and see if indeed they are applicable or just ass-covering.

If just ass-covering then it is appropriate to disregard the idea. One does not have to position oneself within structures of belief in order to disregard and then argue from that position of belief.
 
It occurs to me to ask: if belief is irrational, then what, if anything, constitutes a lie?
 
What do you mean "why?" A question is asked. What constitutes a lie? Why a lie is because that is the question being asked.

Yes i know. But I am asking why the question is asked in relation to belief - specifically - held beliefs.

If belief is irrational, then what, if anything, constitutes a lie?

I don't understand the question in relation to beliefs being irrational, so am asking.
 
I am lying if I assert something I don't actually believe is true.

If I assert something wrong but believe it's true, it's not a lie, just an error.

If all belief is irrational, then how does one rationally tell these two cases apart? If all belief is irrational, then can any lie rationally occur?
 
I am lying if I assert something I don't actually believe is true.

Okay. You are an American Presidential Candidate who say's SHe is a Christian and believes in the Biblical God (according to Christianity - broadly speaking)
However, you are really a Positive/Dogmatic Atheist who is lying in order to get the Christian vote because there are a lot of Christian Voters.

If I assert something wrong but believe it's true, it's not a lie, just an error.

But is it really the case? Should you be asserting something as a belief if you don't know that it is correct? Isn't that a lie also, even if it is just lying to the self initially?

If all belief is irrational, then how does one rationally tell these two cases apart?

The cases are different types of lying .

That the first example happens to be deception for personal gain and a controlling position over a population - the deception is telling the voters you are one of them when in actual fact you are not and you will use your position to move the national mind toward an objective which reflects your own beliefs, irregardless of the beliefs of the majority of people who got you the position through their vote, on the belief that you were a Christian as you said you were.

The second example - lets say that this is the voter who voted for you - SHe believes that you are what you say you are and what's more, joined your team as a supporter and put in the hard yards and long hours promoting your political career.
This active supporter asserts to everyone SHe comes into contact with that you are the one they should vote for. SHe is wrong but believes it is true and is in error.
The lie is still a form of deception - self initially but also spreading the deception.




If all belief is irrational, then can any lie rationally occur?

(therefore) No lie is rational which stems from belief.
 
But is it really the case? Should you be asserting something as a belief if you don't know that it is correct? Isn't that a lie also, even if it is just lying to the self initially?
You lost me on that one. I thought you were of the opinion that belief is irrational, not that it is impossible. Are you now denying that it is possible to believe something at all?

Are you now saying that it is impossible to believe a falsehood? Is it never possible to think you know something and be wrong?

You seem to be arguing on behalf of the question you earlier said made no sense. What is the difference between a belief and a lie?
 
You lost me on that one. I thought you were of the opinion that belief is irrational, not that it is impossible. Are you now denying that it is possible to believe something at all?

Are you now saying that it is impossible to believe a falsehood? Is it never possible to think you know something and be wrong?

You seem to be arguing on behalf of the question you earlier said made no sense. What is the difference between a belief and a lie?

Should you be asserting something as a belief if you don't know that it is correct?

The supporter of the politician is doing so. Should SHe be doing so?

Essentially there is no difference between a belief and a lie.

Since a believer does not know if there is truth to the belief. If it were known to be true, there would be no need to believe it to be true.
 
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Should you be asserting something as a belief if you don't know that it is correct?

The supporter of the politician is doing so. Should SHe be doing so?

Essentially there is no difference between a belief and a lie.

Since a believer does not know if there is truth to the belief. If it were known to be true, there would be no need to believe it to be true.

I think you are conflating a lie with a falsehood, and in so doing you lose the ability to evaluate both behavior and truth.

A person can be quite convinced that a thing is true, and even convinced that he knows a thing when in fact he does not. Delusion, and just plain error occur. Obviously we cannot call a falsehood true just because it's firmly held. Most of us would call that belief, even if the person believing thinks it is knowledge. If that person asserts something based on that error, I think it very short sighted to consider it a lie of the same sort as a deliberate deception. Even if the end result is the same, the personal action is not. Saying that a person should not do this is not the same as calling him a liar.

But aside from declaring that all falsehoods are lies, you also seem to be declaring that all belief is a lie even when it ends up being true.
After all, we can believe a thing, assert it, and be right. Whether it is right or wrong, a guess is a guess, but are all guesses lies?

Is a person who thinks he's telling the truth lying in the same way as a person who lies on purpose? Most would say not.
 
Should you be asserting something as a belief if you don't know that it is correct?

The supporter of the politician is doing so. Should SHe be doing so?

Essentially there is no difference between a belief and a lie.

Since a believer does not know if there is truth to the belief. If it were known to be true, there would be no need to believe it to be true.

The believer could simply state that he/she knows that it is true, so no need for a belief?

Right?
 
In addition to that, since he/she already knows it to be true and would publicly proclaim to know, anyone taking note of such proclamation also does not need to believe, disbelieve or doubt it anymore.
He/she knows so those others now also know and can move on to learning about that which is known.

Is that about right, Navigator?
 
Should you be asserting something as a belief if you don't know that it is correct?


Yes. That is precisely what I should be doing, and what most people do and should do in situations where information is less than certain, which is always.

I tell my wife at noon that I'll pick her up after work at 3:00 PM. I'm running on schedule, my car is in good condition, the distance isn't far, and the weather is okay. But I don't know for sure I won't have a mechanical breakdown on the road, or be called away for a family emergency, or suddenly become too ill to drive due to having eaten something tainted a few hours ago. If one of those things happens at 2:45 and I don't show up at 3:00, was I lying at noon? No, I was honestly describing what I believed would happen.

You want to discuss examples involving politics and belief in God, but you've claimed a lot more territory than that, involving all belief whatsoever. (Or all "held" beliefs, which you haven't differentially defined; I continue to believe that I'll meet my wife at 3:00, right up until my car breaks down at 2:45; does that make it a held belief?) So I'd prefer to stick with these simpler everyday examples.
 
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Yes. That is precisely what I should be doing, and what most people do and should do in situations where information is less than certain, which is always.

I tell my wife at noon that I'll pick her up after work at 3:00 PM. I'm running on schedule, my car is in good condition, the distance isn't far, and the weather is okay. But I don't know for sure I won't have a mechanical breakdown on the road, or be called away for a family emergency, or suddenly become too ill to drive due to having eaten something tainted a few hours ago. If one of those things happens at 2:45 and I don't show up at 3:00, was I lying at noon? No, I was honestly describing what I believed would happen.

You want to discuss examples involving politics and belief in God, but you've claimed a lot more territory than that, involving all belief whatsoever. (Or all "held" beliefs, which you haven't differentially defined; I continue to believe that I'll meet my wife at 3:00, right up until my car breaks down at 2:45; does that make it a held belief?) So I'd prefer to stick with these simpler everyday examples.
As far as I can see, Navigator's position is that you were lying in both cases, even if you get there at the agreed upon time. Off with your head.
 
Yes. That is precisely what I should be doing, and what most people do and should do in situations where information is less than certain, which is always.

I tell my wife at noon that I'll pick her up after work at 3:00 PM. I'm running on schedule, my car is in good condition, the distance isn't far, and the weather is okay. But I don't know for sure I won't have a mechanical breakdown on the road, or be called away for a family emergency, or suddenly become too ill to drive due to having eaten something tainted a few hours ago. If one of those things happens at 2:45 and I don't show up at 3:00, was I lying at noon? No, I was honestly describing what I believed would happen.

You want to discuss examples involving politics and belief in God, but you've claimed a lot more territory than that, involving all belief whatsoever. (Or all "held" beliefs, which you haven't differentially defined; I continue to believe that I'll meet my wife at 3:00, right up until my car breaks down at 2:45; does that make it a held belief?) So I'd prefer to stick with these simpler everyday examples.

Of course you would, but we have already gone over that. Believe/know - words meaning different things being used interchangeably.
That is why I asked:

If I were to take your example about meeting your wife in relation to these:

1: I am lying if I assert something I don't actually believe is true.

2: If I assert something wrong but believe it's true, it's not a lie, just an error.

Number 2 would apply. But your examples are not about held belief and the reason I say held belief, is to make the distinction. If you thought it was about belief, you would tell your wife 'I believe I will be picking you up at 3:00' when agreeing on the time.

That isn't about belief really. If it were people would use the word in such cases.

Your car breaks down and causes your wife to never believe you again? No. That is because she isn't thinking in the first place that expecting you to arrive at the agreed time has anything to do with belief. She knows that any number of things could happen to prevent you meeting at the agreed time.

She doesn't call you a liar when you don't arrive at the agreed time, for the same reason.
 

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