To Believe or Not to Believe - Is that the question?

[Navigator]

To Believe or Not to Believe - Is that the question?

This thread is created due to the ongoing conversation in the thread called

Agnosticism is Atheism in Denial

That thread is dealing with a subject/argument which comes up from time to time.

The claim is "Agnosticism is Atheism in Denial" and I and others took the position that it wasn't a true claim.

My last post in that thread was made just before I had to go to work and in it I made the observation that "the question is a loaded one".

The question under scrutiny is "Do you believe a god(s) exist?" and is related to the claim "Agnosticism is Atheism in Denial".


The argument continues of course, but I spent all morning thinking about the question and is it really a loaded question and if so, what is the better question, and is that just as loaded?

My thoughts evolved around these questions and I have come to the realization that the problem with the question has to do with belief.

But really, what has belief got to do with the question of god(s)?

By framing the question around belief, this only serves to separate individuals into 2 main categories, which are Theists and Atheists and thus every individual on the planet can be sorted into one or the other of these.

Q: Do you believe god(s) exist?

This is relevant only to certain types of atheists and theists, but not to anyone outside these types.
It assume and insists then that everyone has to be either/or and all else can then be a subset of these two main identifiers.

However, belief of any sort is not here nor there.

Personal belief of any sort is irrelevant. It might be precious to the believers, but that does not make belief relevant, or logical.

The correct question regarding god(s) existing or not should not be one involving belief or lack of belief.

The correct question therefore would be:

Q: Do you know god(s) exist or do not exist?

The possible answers therefore can be:

"I don't know" or "I do Know".

If "I don't know" then another question can be asked.

Q: Why don't you know?
A: Because I have found no way to know."

If "I do know" then another question can be asked.

Q:What way have you found this knowledge?
A: "_______________________________" < Place answer here.

Agnosticism is most likely not atheism in denial at all if the question was changed from a belief based one to a knowledge based one.
For that matter it most likely is not even a sub category of atheism, if the question wasn't framed around belief.

 

[Darat]

Which god do you believe in?

 

[ynot]

My thoughts evolved around these questions and I have come to the realization that the problem with the question has to do with belief.

Why is that "the problem" with the question "Do you believe a god(s) exist?"? This question essentially asks "Are you a theist?". Theism is entirely to do with belief. Seems you don't like the question merely because you would like another one.

But really, what has belief got to do with the question of god(s)?

Really? Are you serious? Please say you're joking.

 

[Navigator]

Why is that "the problem" with the question "Do you believe a god(s) exist?"?

If you read the OP you will find the answer to your question

This question essentially asks "Are you a theist?". Theism is entirely to do with belief.

So what? Why does the question even have to cater to the preferences of the theist in the first place?

Seems you don't like the question merely because you would like another one.

Seems you haven't read the OP or you wouldn't be making silly comments like that.

 

[ynot]

If you read the OP you will find the answer to your question

I read the OP. Didn't find the answer.

So what? Why does the question even have to cater to the preferences of the theist in the first place?

It doesn't. The question is the one I chose. Just like the question for this thread is the one you chose. The only purpose of this thread seems to be to criticise another thread.

Seems you haven't read the OP or you wouldn't be making silly comments like that.

I will leave you to your thread.

 

[Navigator]

Which god do you believe in?

To believe or not to believe? Is that the question?

Your question "Which god do you believe in?" Darat, is irrelevant to me. You might as well tell me first exactly how many gods there are and what order of importance you see them as being, what type of food they prefer, and what particualr power they are most skilled with.

Give me the details.

Then wait.

Then maybe you can ask me that question.

Most likely though, you will get the same reply.

Your question "Which god do you believe in?" Darat, is irrelevant to me.

It is illogical. It is pointless.

 

[Darat]

To believe or not to believe? Is that the question?

Your question "Which god do you believe in?" Darat, is irrelevant to me.
You might as well tell me first exactly how many gods there are and what order of importance you see them as being, what type of food they prefer, and what particualr power they are most skilled with.

Give me the details.

Then wait.

Then maybe you can ask me that question.

Most likely though, you will get the same reply.

Your question "Which god do you believe in?" Darat, is irrelevant to me.

It is illogical. It is pointless.

That means you are an atheist and belief has nothing to do with it.

 

[Navigator]

I read the OP. Didn't find the answer.

Sad to hear that.

It doesn't. The question is the one I chose. Just like the question for this thread is the one you chose. The only purpose of this thread seems to be to criticism another thread.

Nope. It has more to do with not wishing to disrupt the other thread with something which - while related, does not cater for an agnostics choice to see themselves differently from the way you claim (in your thread title) they are.
It also has more to do with the realization that questions asked around the framework of belief are intrinsically designed to cater for those with beliefs, and allow believers to categorize others according to the beliefs.

Let me ask you this. Do you know god(s) exist?

I will leave you to your thread.

Okay. Think about my question though, and maybe come back if you want to answer it.

 

[Navigator]

That means you are an atheist and belief has nothing to do with it.

But some atheists do have beliefs, so therefore - at least according to them, belief does have something to do with Atheism.

Darat,

Q: Do you know god(s) exist or do not exist?

(Does being an atheist prevent you from answering this question?)

 

[ynot]

Okay, I will play your game a little longer

Let me ask you this. Do you know god(s) exist?

No.

(your turn)

 

[ynot]

But some atheists do have beliefs, so therefore - at least according to them, belief does have something to do with Atheism.

This belongs in the comedy section.

 

[ehcks]

But some atheists do have beliefs, so therefore - at least according to them, belief does have something to do with Atheism.

If an atheist believes in a thing that is not a god, then that belief has nothing to do with their atheism.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

This belongs in the comedy section.

On that note, I was reminded of this:

"Everybody should believe in something -- I believe I'll have another drink!"

Source unknown, but a good sentiment nonetheless!

 

[ynot]

On that note, I was reminded of this:

"Everybody should believe in something -- I believe I'll have another drink!"

Source unknown, but a good sentiment nonetheless!

Cheers.

 

[Navigator]

Okay, I will play your game a little longer

No.

(your turn)

Q: "Do you know god(s) exist?"

Your A: "No"

Therefore you are an agnostic.

I too am an agnostic - My answer is the same. I don't know that god(s) exist.

Do you see the point of the OP? It is all about the framework of the question being asked as to what the answer can be and thus what others can label you as being based on the answer you give.

 

[RickM]

Cheers.

Hey, what are you doing over here? Get back to where you belong and get ready to defend yourself!

 

[ynot]

Q: "Do you know god(s) exist?"

Your A: "No"

Therefore you are an agnostic.

I too am an agnostic - My answer is the same. I don't know that god(s) exist.

Do you see the point of the OP? It is all about the framework of the question being asked as to what the answer can be and thus what others can label you as being based on the answer you give.

Incorrect - I'm an agnostic-atheist not merely an agnostic. Agnostic is applied to my atheism purely as a subset. Firstly and predominately I'm an atheist (just like you if you're not a theist). Agnostic isn't a middle position that lies between theist and atheist. Many theists would also answer "No". They would be agnostic-theists (see how that works?).

The only thing I can see is your confusion (that's putting it nicely).

I will assume that's game over.

ETA –My more complete answer would have been – “No, not absolutely. But I do as near as damn that it doesn't really matter”.

 

[ynot]

Hey, what are you doing over here? Get back to where you belong and get ready to defend yourself!

YES SIR, CAPTAIN SIR.

 

[RickM]

YES SIR, CAPTAIN SIR.

Your little whine last night had me laughing. Keep up the good work.

 

[ynot]

Your little whine last night had me laughing. Keep up the good work.

Sorry but I'm not sure exactly what "whine" you mean (I've had so many).

Okay, I think I know. Different time zones and all that (last night)