Titanic tourist sub missing

[MRC_Hans]

To be any help, the acoustic warning system would have to detect problems several hours before failure of the hull, because that's how long it takes to ascend from the bottom. If it triggered and if they acted on the warning, one thing we do know is that it didn't give them hours.
As to whether they would have heeded the warning, I think they would, because there were two very successful businessmen on board, one with his son. They're probably used to dealing with people like Stockton Rush.

Just a comment here: It might take hours to get to the surface and have the sub retrieved, but as soon as it started to ascend, the pressure would begin to be relieved, so it should be possible to get to safety if the ascent was started timely.

The main problem here was that for acoustic monitoring to work as a safety measure, one would need a concise knowledge of the acoustic profile of an impending catastrophic failure. Something that could obviously only be ascertained by performing a series of full-scale trials.

There is such a thing as "step-stress" testing protocols. Here, you basically expose the test object to increasing loads until it breaks, and you can then record failure modes, warning symptoms, etc. However, that is a tad expensive for a device such as a deep-sea sub, so this is no doubt the reason most of the community prefer the relatively more economical approach of "Making it exceedingly strong, and then some".

Hans

 

[jeremyp]

Just a comment here: It might take hours to get to the surface and have the sub retrieved, but as soon as it started to ascend, the pressure would begin to be relieved, so it should be possible to get to safety if the ascent was started timely.

Except that every failure weakens the hull a bit so that the implosion can happen at a shallower depth.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Except that every failure weakens the hull a bit so that the implosion can happen at a shallower depth.

Yes, that is a risk. You would need to map all the way to failure, or at least to a high safety margin, and you would probably need to count every sound, as the damage is highly likely to be cumulative..

In practice, as I also said, the cost would be prohibitive.

Hans

 

[Skeptical Greg]

In this case, all that testing would have shown was that the design was not up to the task. Something that Rush was unwilling to accept.

 

[The Man]

Just a comment here: It might take hours to get to the surface and have the sub retrieved, but as soon as it started to ascend, the pressure would begin to be relieved, so it should be possible to get to safety if the ascent was started timely.

The main problem here was that for acoustic monitoring to work as a safety measure, one would need a concise knowledge of the acoustic profile of an impending catastrophic failure. Something that could obviously only be ascertained by performing a series of full-scale trials.

There is such a thing as "step-stress" testing protocols. Here, you basically expose the test object to increasing loads until it breaks, and you can then record failure modes, warning symptoms, etc. However, that is a tad expensive for a device such as a deep-sea sub, so this is no doubt the reason most of the community prefer the relatively more economical approach of "Making it exceedingly strong, and then some".

Hans

Exactly MRC_Hans, and there was no indication that acoustic warnings (not just by the audio system) weren't heeded.

Sure, testing could have told them something but indications are he didn't want to hear, even in use, clearly audiable warnings on prior dives.

In this case, all that testing would have shown was that the design was not up to the task. Something that Rush was unwilling to accept.

Agian, exactly, Skeptical Greg. Indications are that **** testing. **** warnings you don't need an audio system to hear. Then, just **** you and your pasengers to death.

I remain without addiquite expression of my discust.

 

[The Man]

To be any help, the acoustic warning system would have to detect problems several hours before failure of the hull, because that's how long it takes to ascend from the bottom. If it triggered and if they acted on the warning, one thing we do know is that it didn't give them hours.

Days or months as I recall, they had to rework the hull. I could be mistaken, but in use warning systems don't help with known and repaired structural problems.

As to whether they would have heeded the warning, I think they would, because there were two very successful businessmen on board, one with his son. They're probably used to dealing with people like Stockton Rush.

Point being, too late. If everyone onboard was a master submersible engineer, still all dead.


As Foster Zygote noted hours to ascend and as I noted, at most seconds to catastrophic failure. Yeah, ascend and reduce the pressure on an already crushing egg shell, just as dead. CF is great when it holds up, failure tends to be catastrophic. When over stressed, it'll crush like a piece of paper in your hand, fracture and splinter almost like shattered safety glass.

(Lamented safety glass being the best analogy I could come up with now)


ETA: Sorry, the analogy should be delaminated safety glass, where the laminated layers have separated from each other.

 

[Puppycow]

I don't think I've seen this guy's videos before (Mike Bell) but he claims to have some inside information from a crew member (on the top side of course).

The main points are that the transcript is indeed fake, but also they hadn't tried to abort. It's standard procedure to drop some ballast about 400 meters before reaching the bottom to slow the descent, but they had only dropped about half of the ballast needed to achieve neutral buoyancy.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I don't think I've seen this guy's videos before (Mike Bell) but he claims to have some inside information from a crew member (on the top side of course).

The main points are that the transcript is indeed fake, but also they hadn't tried to abort. It's standard procedure to drop some ballast about 400 meters before reaching the bottom to slow the descent, but they had only dropped about half of the ballast needed to achieve neutral buoyancy.

If that's the case, then at least they most likely died without ever even knowing there was a problem.

 

[Myriad]

There are a number of implosion simulation videos online, such as this one:



Take them all with a grain of salt, since I haven't found any that go into any detail on how they modeled the materials, or how they modeled the failure. But they get the point across regarding the speed of the process as discussed earlier in this thread, with corporeal disintegration happening faster than the speed of nerve impulses.

ETA: Fixed faulty embed

 

[jeremyp]

There are a number of implosion simulation videos online, such as this one:



Take them all with a grain of salt, since I haven't found any that go into any detail on how they modeled the materials, or how they modeled the failure. But they get the point across regarding the speed of the process as discussed earlier in this thread, with corporeal disintegration happening faster than the speed of nerve impulses.

ETA: Fixed faulty embed

Already saw that video I wish they had included a real time version of events seen from inside the sub.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Just saw this news item:

Titan Sub Documentary Features New Audio Of Mysterious Banging Sounds During Search

Nothing new that I can see, however this comment caught my attention.

The sounds were initially reported amid the search and were described as “banging noises heard at roughly 30-minute intervals,”

" S " 30 minutes later " O ", and another 30 minutes " S " ..

Riiiiiight..

 

[Marcus]

Just saw this news item:

Titan Sub Documentary Features New Audio Of Mysterious Banging Sounds During Search

Nothing new that I can see, however this comment caught my attention.



" S " 30 minutes later " O ", and another 30 minutes " S " ..

Riiiiiight..

If I recall correctly, these sounds, which generated some hope during the search, were later determined, or at least guessed, to come from something else. Its not really possible to pinpoint a source for these.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

From the link:

A U.S. Navy analysis found the sounds were either ocean noise or stemmed from “other search ships,” an official said.

I was just observing how ludicrous the " 30 minute interval " sounded.

 

[novaphile]

From the link:



I was just observing how ludicrous the " 30 minute interval " sounded.

Yeah, that's really bending over backwards to make noise into a pattern.

 

[Puppycow]

Still no official report from the Coast Guard or whoever is officially investigating?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Still no official report from the Coast Guard or whoever is officially investigating?

I could not find any reference to a report being issued on the incident. The CBC has a TV clip from "8 months ago" - TSB investigation into loss of Titan submersible 'a major undertaking'. That's Canada's Transportation Safety Board. From what I remember there may be more than one agency conducting investigations. A quick check of the TSB website does not show a published report as yet.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Just saw this news item:

Titan Sub Documentary Features New Audio Of Mysterious Banging Sounds During Search

Nothing new that I can see, however this comment caught my attention.



" S " 30 minutes later " O ", and another 30 minutes " S " ..

Riiiiiight..

Someone better alert the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Second time luck?

Ohio real estate tycoon plans to take new submersible to Titanic wreck

Larry Connor announces intention to prove safety of industry less than a year after five people killed in OceanGate implosion

 

[theprestige]

Second time luck?

Ohio real estate tycoon plans to take new submersible to Titanic wreck

: whistling

"Larry Connor announces intention to prove safety of industry less than a year after five people killed in OceanGate implosion"

Heh.

“Ours is not just a trip to the Titanic,” Connor said in a separate interview with the New York Times on Tuesday. “It’s a research mission … to demonstrate to people around the globe that you can build a revolutionary, first-of-its-kind sub and dive it safely and successfully to great depths.”​

James Cameron demonstrated this over a decade ago.

 

[gabeygoat]

"Larry Connor announces intention to prove safety of industry less than a year after five people killed in OceanGate implosion"

Heh.

“Ours is not just a trip to the Titanic,” Connor said in a separate interview with the New York Times on Tuesday. “It’s a research mission … to demonstrate to people around the globe that you can build a revolutionary, first-of-its-kind sub and dive it safely and successfully to great depths.”​

James Cameron demonstrated this over a decade ago.

exactly. seems like a bit of an ego trip.