Titanic tourist sub missing

[dann]

There are those who have so much money that taking obvious risks is the only thrill they have.

They have access to all the thrills that money can buy. Ordinary people haven't. The stepson seems to understand this.
I have a T-shirt with a picture of a chopper motorcycle and the text, "The best things in life are dangerous." I bought it in order to have a conversation with my students about the utterly stupid idea and to tell them about the classes I had taken in safe riding.

People who think that the best things in life are dangerous, that risks are the only thrills, tend to be somewhere on the narcissism spectrum. 'Look at me! I'm somebody who is not afraid of' ... whatever:

Results showed that erratic lifestyle psychopathy traits (i.e., impulsivity, irresponsibility, and sensation seeking) were linked with risk-taking behavior in all domains.
Psychopathy and risk taking: Examining the role of risk perception (Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 91, March 2016 on Science Direct)

I have no idea if the victims of the submersible accident were psychopathic or just ignorant.

 

[El Greco]

Let's say that Stockton Rush was a delusional megalomaniac who wanted to prove a point with his contraption. It was his own design and his own company. The really criminal idiot however was Nargeolet. He had no stake in it and with his vast experience he should be well aware of the vessel's shortcomings.

 

[commandlinegamer]

I suspect the bangs/knocks heard in the last few days were just some form of magma displacement.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Probably no implosion. That would only happen if there were some space completely sealed off from water intrusion, and I don't think there was. Otherwise, water will come in and any air trapped inside would be compressed to the water pressure.

Talking sinking surface vessels, I presume:

In fact, explosions are quite common. What happens is that as water enters the hull, trapped air is compressed. If this happens in parts that are still above water, or even just higher in the water than the flooded parts, they may explode.

Hans

 

[The Man]

I know absolutely nothing about the physics of tension, but isn't it the opposite of a balloon in this case? The tension of the balloon material is what presses the air out of it when you let loose of it (if you didn't tie a knot). And the pressure is due to the remaining flexibility of the material it's made of: rubber.

Right, the spring tension of the expanded balloon material pushes the air blown in, back out.

And the pressure in this case went the opposite way: There was almost no air-pressure inside the bubble, whereas the outside pressure was extreme. If the air-pressure inside this bubble were what maintained it, it would have been as difficult for people to survive inside as outside of the bubble, and that wasn't the case, obviously.

OK, not pressure in or outside, but tension and compression in structural elements. Pre-stressed concrete is everywhere.

I think that what I'm trying to say is that I don't see what pre-stress has to do with anything.

I’ll try to explain, some materials handle tension better than compression. Others are better in compression than tension. Combine the two and the material in tension applies compression to the other, while that other keeps the material better in tension, well, in tension. Pre-stressed, as both the elements remain in stress (length extension for one and contraction for the other), one tensile and one compressive. Composite pre-stressed materials, stronger than just a basic combination of both, pre-stressed concrete is all around.

However, that means there is stress already on both materials, meaning there is stored energy. Like a compressed spring (for one) and pulled spring (tensile) for the other, ready to be released. Concrete as the compression part tends to be very resilient as does the tensile stressed rebar within it for pre-stressed concrete.

Carbon fibers and a polymer, or whatever, are a whole different ballgame. Neither takes torsion (rotational stress) well and as related before once one of such elements, just partially, fails ensuing collapses can be catastrophic. As that pre-stressed energy gets released. Don’t think it could make the collapse faster than the speed of sound in the composite material, but it will tend to keep it up there, even in spite of other intervening structural elements.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I'm semi-seriously thinking about the railings and stuff. Like, they are still under the pressure of two and a half miles of water column. When they initially located the Titanic back in I think the 80's, I sort of expected a flattened out tin can. Not imploded, just crushed.

I take it you're assuming the railings are hollow tubing & airtight & would therefore contain compressible air? TBH I'd expect them to be solid (possibly metal with wooden handrails) or not completely sealed.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

If the sub imploded, there's not going to be enough remains to fill a thimble. The pressure would have torn everyone to shreds.

Not to mention the extreme heat generated by the air compressing.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

At Fox News, the important question is "how is Hunter Biden tied to this?"

After the break: Trump tells us how he was was going to swim out and rescue them if found. "They said 'Sir,' they always call me 'Sir', 'Sir, only you're fit enough to hold your breath that long'. Because it's bigly deep"

 

[Checkmite]

Does the OceanGate company now get billed for the rescue attempt?

I don't think so; I don't believe the US Coast Guard bills like that.

But even if they did, they'd never see the money. In my amateur opinion OceanGate is not going to exist as a functioning company for much longer.

 

[Checkmite]

Let's say that Stockton Rush was a delusional megalomaniac who wanted to prove a point with his contraption. It was his own design and his own company. The really criminal idiot however was Nargeolet. He had no stake in it and with his vast experience he should be well aware of the vessel's shortcomings.

I've only just seen this video; but it claims that Nargeolet was present on every dive and implies he had some kind of guide or instructional role. At first I'd assumed he was just another passenger but it looks like he was actually an employee of OceanGate, so there is your stake.

By the way I highly recommend everyone watch this video if you haven't seen it already. It's the promotional video for the expedition.



Despite the almost protest-too-much emphasis of the promo, this very much was tourism and absolutely was not science, "citizen" or otherwise. I have been unable to find evidence that any of OceanGate's Titanic expeditions have collected or shared any data or findings of scientific import. It's purely a LARP.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I posted asking what protocol it was supposed to be.
It always seemed suspicious

Surely everyone knows SOS in morse, it would meet the criteria of being distinguishable from random noise & you could do it constantly rather than being silent most of the time. As a layman I've got to think this is better

 

[Checkmite]

There were a lot of particular things in that video that stood out to me, by the way. For instance, according to the video there's a pretty large crowd of "mission specialists" that actually go out on the ship. Each dive carries three of them, while the rest remain on the surface and observe remotely, as much as they can, or are given other arbitrary tasks to do, until it's their turn to go on the submersible.

I'm trying to imagine what it must be like to be one of the "mission specialists" who had already dived on this expedition (if any)...or what those who were waiting for their turn must be thinking right now.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... I'm trying to imagine what it must be like to be one of the "mission specialists" who had already dived on this expedition (if any)...or what those who were waiting for their turn must be thinking right now.

That occurred to me too (straight after what you already said about these expeditions being LARP-science).

Though I suppose, despite the high profile, it's not a more extraordinary experience than any time there's a fatal air accident there are plenty of people who realise they just took that flight or were due to take it in coming days.

 

[Andy_Ross]

There were a lot of particular things in that video that stood out to me, by the way. For instance, according to the video there's a pretty large crowd of "mission specialists" that actually go out on the ship. Each dive carries three of them, while the rest remain on the surface and observe remotely, as much as they can, or are given other arbitrary tasks to do, until it's their turn to go on the submersible.

I'm trying to imagine what it must be like to be one of the "mission specialists" who had already dived on this expedition (if any)...or what those who were waiting for their turn must be thinking right now.

Probably thinking they should get a lottery ticket before the luck runs out

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

As I was saying, they just classified everyone going on the thing as "mission specialists" to circumvent the need to get classed (read: certified). Like, literally that 19 year old business student who didn't even want to go there, was a "mission specialist." If they were taking passengers, they'd need to be certified. But if it's only the specialists, it's ok to be an experimental sub.

And really, who were the specialists there? Because there were only 5 people on board. The only one who actually would qualify as an expert would be Paul-Henri Nargeolet. That's quite short of having three specialists on board.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

As I was saying, they just classified everyone going on the thing as "mission specialists" to circumvent the need to get classed (read: certified).

I wonder if they explained to their customers that calling them "mission specialists" instead of passengers was a regulatory figleaf.

And now I worry about this giving Ryanair ideas.

 

[Darat]

Earlier I said:

If I had the money I'd love to do these types of things, so don't resent anyone else getting the opportunity. There will of course be an increased risk of death or injury from these extreme tourism opportunities, that I think goes with the territory. Of course if the operator has cut corners and not followed whatever regulations exist or made false statements about the safety that is a different matter.

Sadly that does seem to be the case.

As I was saying, they just classified everyone going on the thing as "mission specialists" to circumvent the need to get classed (read: certified). Like, literally that 19 year old business student who didn't even want to go there, was a "mission specialist." If they were taking passengers, they'd need to be certified. But if it's only the specialists, it's ok to be an experimental sub.

And really, who were the specialists there? Because there were only 5 people on board. The only one who actually would qualify as an expert would be Paul-Henri Nargeolet. That's quite short of having three specialists on board.

I suppose you could class the owner as the captain and just about stretch that to be a specialist or crew.

But yep all they were doing was a run-around the regulations. I suspect the "specialists" knew this, the very rich tend to be particularly good at getting around "inconvenient" regulations and rules to get what they want. I'm so cynical that I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a tax dodge in being labelled as specialist.

 

[jeremyp]

Ah yes and the first talking head on television mentioned the Byford Dolphin, my go to example of "They way you don't want to die" as a comparison.

I doubt if anybody in that incident (except the surviving tender) had time to realise what was about to happen to them. It was pretty gruesome, but only for the people who had to clear up.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If they weren't charging anyone for the trip with wouldn't need to be regulated. I don't know about the USA but in the UK you can put out to sea in an old bathtub if you want to.

 

[jeremyp]

At best James Cameron is a knowledgabel fan of deep sea navigation. .

Nope. He's done a lot of work in the field. You may not like him, but he is an expert, at least compared to most of the people pontificating about this incident.

Take a look at this interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9YB31ElEFQ

At 6:40, Bob Ballard even defers to Camaron on the engineering of the submersible. If Ballard thinks Cameron knows what he is talking about, that's good enough for me.