Titanic tourist sub missing

[novaphile]

You can drop steel or iron into the deepest oceans and its just going to be putting pressure on each side. Its not going to make enough difference to its shape for a human beings eyes to tell. Its when there is air, or another gas, contained inside a steel vessel that you will see implosion.

There probably was some implosion that occurred when Titanic sank, especially in the stern (bow sank more quickly IIRC). But most of it flooded before it imploded.

<--- my totally unscientific take, and someone like JayUtah I'm sure could do vastly better

Quick aside...

Unlike what happens to polystyrene foam beer holders.

Some friends of mine, used to regularly decorate polystyrene beer can holders (the cylindrical things that hold a single can or a small bottle) with felt tipped markers, and then attach them to the anchor chain in net bags.

When the anchor was pulled back up, the foam coolers had been shrunk down to hard plastic things about the size of thimbles, and the decorations looked amazing because they had also shrunk.

 

[Andy_Ross]

"Yeah, remember all that **** we were saying about timed banging at regular intervals consistent with Naval protocol? Turned out we were just making **** up. Looked real busy though, didn't we?"

I posted asking what protocol it was supposed to be.
It always seemed suspicious

 

[novaphile]

Talk to any sailor, the ocean just makes a lot of weird noises.

Or anyone who has ever dived or snorkelled.

The constant sounds of clicks, chirps, bangs and groans takes a while to ignore.

In my case, it was very rare that I could positively identify what was making any of the noise.

(i.e. if a fish comes up and starts bumping your face plate while making loud grunting noises, it gets a bit obvious.)

 

[bruto]

At Fox News, the important question is "how is Hunter Biden tied to this?"

They used his laptop as a navigation computer, and it will be recovered from the debris field.

 

[Marcus]

Do you think no one knew they existed before this all went down?

The " top secret " part, is their operation procedures, not the fact that they exist.

I was being a little tongue in cheek, but I'm not sure how the "top secret underwater microphones" can still be considered top secret after stories are published about them. Their exact location perhaps.



"US defense officials told media outlets on Thursday that top secret underwater microphones had detected sounds “consistent with an implosion” shortly after the submersible disappeared and that this information was immediately shared with the US Coast Guard to assist with the search."

 

[Dr.Sid]

I was being a little tongue in cheek, but I'm not sure how the "top secret underwater microphones" can still be considered top secret after stories are published about them. Their exact location perhaps.

Well the most secret thing about them is their capabilities.

 

[dudalb]

Already a conspiracth theory that the information about the detection of the sound was witheld to keep the story alive, distracting from the Hunter Biden story.
And..surprise..the soucre for this theory are the Trumpers.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Suleman Dawood

I imagined that possibility a couple of pages ago, as pure speculation. If you heard something similar elsewhere that's fine, but I don't want to be responsible for starting any ugly rumors.

The Independent wrote, "In an interview published before the tragic developments were announced, Dawood’s sister Azmeh Dawood told NBC News that her nephew was absolutely scared, and only agreed to go on the expedition because it was important to his “Titanic-obsessed” father. Suleman reportedly told family members he was concerned about the tour and “wasn’t very up for it.”"

 

[JayUtah]

<--- my totally unscientific take, and someone like JayUtah I'm sure could do vastly better

Well I was about to explain it in terms of a familiar explosion—a balloon, but...

It's possible, but I wouldn't call it pretty likely. There's a reason the word "implosion" comes up in such scenarios. If you're thinking along the lines of the hull being crushed like a beer can, that's probably not the kind of end result you'd see. Think instead of a balloon popping, except inward instead of outward. (It's not a great metaphor but it's the same kind of distinction. The air could leak slowly out the hole in the balloon but it doesn't usually play out that way.) Also, composite carbon fiber doesn't bend like metal. It's really strong but when it does break, it splinters apart almost like wood.

Neither explosions or implosions are isometric, but they do share the same physical principles in terms of what happens to the vessel.

Probably no implosion. That would only happen if there were some space completely sealed off from water intrusion, and I don't think there was. Otherwise, water will come in and any air trapped inside would be compressed to the water pressure.

Every manufactured vessel necessarily has a weakest point. Once it has failed there, you have two or more fracture tips surrounding a breach. The edges of the fracture no longer can rely on surrounding materials for structural strength. The pressure on other points of the vessel doesn't go away. And the entrance or exit of pressurized fluid trying to flow to lower pressure happens more slowly than the effects of reduced resistance to ongoing pressure at the fracture tips. Fracture velocity is rule-of-thumbishly the speed of sound in the object. So the pressure doesn't equalize nearly fast enough to prevent the fractured material from yielding as the fracture propagates.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

SO help me , James Cameron has become the go to interview as an "expert" on this.
It is like interviewing somebody who chartered and then flew as a passenger in a 747 as an expert on aeronautics.
God, I hate the age of Celebriity.

Oh but Cameron now really does think he's a bona fide expert on all things related to Titanic and deep sea exploration in general.

I've seen Titanic-related programmes where he gathers in a panel of (true) experts and goes over the sinking and the discovery etc. And because he's paid for all the computer modelling and scale models and impressive graphics etc, they all effectively defer to his grandstanding.

Or maybe, maybe, someone who has taken part in and planned around 70 deep-sea dives, including solo to the Mariana Trench, has over the decades amassed a body of knowledge with regard to the subject matter that he can apply and reference.

 

[The Man]

Well I was about to explain it in terms of a familiar explosion—a balloon, but...



Neither explosions or implosions are isometric, but they do share the same physical principles in terms of what happens to the vessel.



Every manufactured vessel necessarily has a weakest point. Once it has failed there, you have two or more fracture tips surrounding a breach. The edges of the fracture no longer can rely on surrounding materials for structural strength. The pressure on other points of the vessel doesn't go away. And the entrance or exit of pressurized fluid trying to flow to lower pressure happens more slowly than the effects of reduced resistance to ongoing pressure at the fracture tips. Fracture velocity is rule-of-thumbishly the speed of sound in the object. So the pressure doesn't equalize nearly fast enough to prevent the fractured material from yielding as the fracture propagates.

For a composite carbon fiber hull, if that is the case, a shattering glass would be my analogy of failure at such pressure. Like you say at the speed of sound in the media, the fracture basically propagates out everywhere at that speed or less. It's only the interwoven nature of carbon fibers that give them their strength (and generally some polymer to keep it all together). Once breached, factures can go everywhere basically because of that interwoven nature; always some line for the fracture to follow. Everything’s the same in mostly every direction. Nothing much to at least even stall a failure.

ETA; Oh, I should point out that because of the external pressure differential the glass shatters inwards. So implosion, but just more chunky and in parts than say crushing a beer can. Like a balloon ripping apart when popped, but more ripping and the parts go in not out.

 

[The Atheist]

...a catastrophic implosion...

I've seen that phrase a lot.

Is there a type of implosion at -4000m that isn't catastrophic?

They're all dead, Dave.

Nice!

 

[Skeptical Greg]

The more I read about successful deep submergence vehicles ( DSV's ), the more this vehicle seems like some kind of joke.. A deadly joke.

 

[ThatGuy11200]

Social media wanted a say and did not disappoint, delivering the absurd subplot that we all deserved. One of the missing passengers is Hamish Harding, a British billionaire and adventurer. His stepson announced that he was going to a Blink-182 concert for solace and tweeted his plight to band members. Cardi B was having none of it. She posted a video on Instagram that addressed people who suggested that a guy going to and posting about a Blink-182 concert while his stepdad was missing was completely normal behavior:

“You’re supposed to be at the house sad. You’re supposed to be crying for me. You’re supposed to be right next to the phone waiting to hear any updates about me, you’re supposed to be consoling your mommy. Isn’t it sad that you are whole *********** billionaire, and nobody gives a **** about you? Like you missing and ************* are ready to shake dicks at concerts. That’s crazy. I rather be broke and poor but knowing that I’m loved.”



https://variety.com/2023/tv/opinion/missing-titanic-sub-coverage-exploited-tragedy-1235652292/

It's his stepfather though.

 

[dann]

Well, life's short:

Facing the heat, he admitted he knew some people would find his appearance at the gig "distasteful" but tried to justify his actions. Mr Szasz then flirted with an OnlyFans model online, which made the criticism shriller. According to New York Post, Brian Szasz responded to a risque post of OnlyFans girl Brea on Wednesday as rescuers raced to find the submersible Titan.
Stepson Of Billionaire On Missing Titanic Sub Attends Blink-182 Concert, Slammed (NDTV, June 23, 2023)

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

The more I learn about it, the less I understand the people who went on it. The whole thing was not certified or classified for that type of mission. It was registered as an EXPERIMENTAL submarine. The carbon fibre hull was something that the guy was trying to prove worked. To get around the rules for vessels taking passengers (much as even those only apply in territorial waters) everyone on board was declared as a mission specialist. (Yeah, that 19 year old who didn't even want to go diving, was a mission specialist.)

It seems to me like when you have to go through such hoops to fit into loopholes of safety laws, that should be your clue that maybe it's really risky.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Does the OceanGate company now get billed for the rescue attempt?

 

[The Man]

Heck, just thought about this if it was a pre-stressed construction (which is likely given the application). That is, the carbon fibers were held in tensile stress while the polymer or whatever compositing element they used, cured or solidified. That leaves the fibers in tension, making them like springs, releasing that tensile stress when the combination fails. Same thing as a balloon, while pressure inside and outside of a balloon are always the same (but not this case). It is the tensile or spring like energy stored in the blown balloon material that makes parts of it fly apart when popped. In this case a pre-stressed carbon fiber construction makes the glass analogy more balloon like. That the major structural elements of the hull were already in tension and had energy to release if given the chance.

 

[Lplus]

The more I learn about it, the less I understand the people who went on it. The whole thing was not certified or classified for that type of mission. It was registered as an EXPERIMENTAL submarine. The carbon fibre hull was something that the guy was trying to prove worked. To get around the rules for vessels taking passengers (much as even those only apply in territorial waters) everyone on board was declared as a mission specialist. (Yeah, that 19 year old who didn't even want to go diving, was a mission specialist.)

It seems to me like when you have to go through such hoops to fit into loopholes of safety laws, that should be your clue that maybe it's really risky.

There are those who have so much money that taking obvious risks is the only thrill they have.

 

[dann]

Heck, just thought about this if it was a pre-stressed construction (which is likely given the application). That is, the carbon fibers were held in tensile stress while the polymer or whatever compositing element they used, cured or solidified. That leaves the fibers in tension, making them like springs, releasing that tensile stress when the combination fails. Same thing as a balloon, while pressure inside and outside of a balloon are always the same (but not this case). It is the tensile or spring like energy stored in the blown balloon material that makes parts of it fly apart when popped. In this case a pre-stressed carbon fiber construction makes the glass analogy more balloon like. That the major structural elements of the hull were already in tension and had energy to release if given the chance.

I know absolutely nothing about the physics of tension, but isn't it the opposite of a balloon in this case? The tension of the balloon material is what presses the air out of it when you let loose of it (if you didn't tie a knot). And the pressure is due to the remaining flexibility of the material it's made of: rubber.

And the pressure in this case went the opposite way: There was almost no air-pressure inside the bubble, whereas the outside pressure was extreme. If the air-pressure inside this bubble were what maintained it, it would have been as difficult for people to survive inside as outside of the bubble, and that wasn't the case, obviously.

I think that what I'm trying to say is that I don't see what pre-stress has to do with anything.