There is no paranormal things in homeopathic potencies

[Aepervius]

No...

this finitive mass can also react and form another mass and when you add more things then it can react and change to another mass.

Do you understand what a dilution is ? What a solvent is ?
OK let us admit we are all wrong here. Just for a second.

Let us all think your belladona react. And those final product are what heal/cure
symptom/is the homeopathic effect.

Do you understand that reaction are , per definition a finite process ?
Let us assume you are not speaking of autodissociation for obvious reason.
So you have chemical A and solvent S (H2O here). Let us assume just for a second
you are right there is a reaction. Fine. n*A+H2O->m*B+l*C what ever B+C are.
Now since the solvent is in great quantity *all* reaction of those type
EITHER A is completly *GONE* or if the reaction is slower until you start your dilution.
(I won't go into the fact that this MUST be an endothermic reaction
and other nastyness about reaction enthalpie and mass conservation law
you will probably not udnerstand it. Read lavoisier work).

If you start your dilution before the reaction is finished then at the moment when
you dilute the quantity of A, B , C and all product are "finished" (not infinite)
and will diminute by a factor 1/100.

If the reaction is finished and B and C are stable product THEN you will
have a concentration of m/n or l/n in the final solution. THAT MEANS you go back
to my post above witha set of {Mx,j} hwich are only slightly different
by a factor m/n and l/n than before. It means that you will have less molecule at a slightly higher
j than before {Mx,14} for example instead of {Mx,13}.

EVEN if your B and C are not final product, if you dilute before they react they will
get their concentration AGAIN lower by 1/100. And AGAIN. Until nothing is there.
Or you leave them react fact is, EVEN if l>>n and m>>n THEY ARE FINITE. Even
for big macro molecule, and even if that dissociation process exploded an organic molecule into
its single consitutent atoms you would only get at MOST l~1000*n in the best case.
So even if there was an INFINITE set of reaction due to the fact you DILUTE each time
at the very end you will get nothing for {Mx,15}.

EVEN if your reaction are catalityc, exothermic and quick, and transform
water into something else, that something else will have to use some of your atom
of your original molecules of belladon. BUT due to that Bastard Lavoisier (sic) you will,
sooner or later at 15C or 16C, have the Problem that you will RUN OUT OF ATOM/MOLECULES
coming from your original belladona sample.

And since nothing is created, nothing is lost in chemical reaction well you are S.O.L.
The only way to enable your homeopathic dilution to have something at the very end would be either :
1) to be a fraud 2) to badly , very badly, and wrongly clean your equipement bewteen dilution
3) have a PARANORMAL spontaneous creation of material

If your answer is 3) then please I have jsut proved you homeopathy is paranormal. Where is my million rupee ?

I propose we leave this thread DEAD Until mr Sheick admit he understood
the above comment. Naturally feel free to correct any error above in the logic.

 

[Mojo]

Go on then, ask him if he accepts that atoms have finite mass.

Did that too. He accepted it here. He also accepted that if you divide a finite number by a larger finite number you will get an answer that is less than 1.

He then accepted that:

Yes, I admit according to your calculation which is correct, we can say, homeopathic potency cannot have any effect above avogadros number limit.

Then, of course, he immediately said that this meant that we needed to address the question of how homoeopathic remedies above the limit can have an effect.

 

[steenkh]

Maybe somebody should explain what the term finite means. Everytime somebody uses this term, Dr. Sheikh seems not to notice.

OK, I will try: Finite is the opposite of infinite. It is used to make clear that you cannot make serial dilutions forever and ever without losing whatever you were diluting. That is why it does not matter if we are talking about suspended grains, molecules, atoms or even quarks: Even though there would be huge numbers of them in the original mother tincture, and even though they may react with another or with the solvent, they are finite and can therefore be diluted away. And the stage where they are diluted away is well below 20C.

Let us see if that helps.

 

[cyborg]

this finitive mass can also react and form another mass and when you add more things then it can react and change to another mass.

The minimum mass for an atom in a stable compound is an ionised hydrogen atom - a single proton and another mass isn't formed, the original masses just rearrange.

If you propose anything that would require something with a smaller mass then you're talking about subatomic particles.

A lot of physicists would be very interested to hear about that because generally they need to smash electrons at near light-speed requiring masses of energy to examine such particles but you've got something to do it umch simply and cheaply.

That would make this process paranormal.

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Maybe somebody should explain what the term finite means. Everytime somebody uses this term, Dr. Sheikh seems not to notice.

OK, I will try: Finite is the opposite of infinite. It is used to make clear that you cannot make serial dilutions forever and ever without losing whatever you were diluting. That is why it does not matter if we are talking about suspended grains, molecules, atoms or even quarks: Even though there would be huge numbers of them in the original mother tincture, and even though they may react with another or with the solvent, they are finite and can therefore be diluted away. And the stage where they are diluted away is well below 20C.

Let us see if that helps.

I have no objection that serial dilutions cannot make forever. But you are not following that during serial dilution you cannot stop chemicals not to react with each other or with freshly pouring water and alcohol.

 

[anor277]

I have no objection that serial dilutions cannot make forever. But you are not following that during serial dilution you cannot stop chemicals not to react with each other or with freshly pouring water and alcohol.

And again you have not proferred a single example of a plant component that could react with ethyl alcohol at room temperature.

 

[Mojo]

I have no objection that serial dilutions cannot make forever. But you are not following that during serial dilution you cannot stop chemicals not to react with each other or with freshly pouring water and alcohol.

Whatever happens, though, if you start with a finite mass of solute you will only have a finite number of atoms, so sooner or later you will get to the point where your preparation contains less than one atom from the mother tincture. Less than one atom means no atoms at all.

 

[Belz...]

hans you never used homeopathy, you never seen how homeopathic potencies are prepared and you are commenting like a scholar, I think you are the professor of homeopathy.

It isn't complicated. When you dilute, you have less of the active ingredient left. Doesn't take such a big brain to understand. 30C is ludicrous.

Exactly, now you got my point. it is your understanding about dilutions not ours. we homeopaths are preparing dilutions entirely in the different ways and our dilutions have molecules in them.

Do they ? Then I submit that your dilution notations are wrong and potentially criminal.

 

[Rolfe]

Whatever happens, though, if you start with a finite mass of solute you will only have a finite number of atoms, so sooner or later you will get to the point where your preparation contains less than one atom from the mother tincture. Less than one atom means no atoms at all.

And this point is, under all practical circumstances, before 13C. Given the fact that real mother tinctures don't usually start with as much as a kg of anything, the likelihood is that it may happen a stage or even two earlier.

Sheikh, get this. If we know the exact composition of the mother tincture, we can calculate exactly when you run out of anything. However, you are very carefully not allowing us to have any real idea of the composition of the mother tincture. You specify a herbal preparation, which of course will have a great many different compounds in it, and you refuse to tell us what weight of the plant goes into the mother tincture. Thus, the exact calculation cannot be made. Hence we try to allow for extreme situations, but find that even there, the point where substance of the solute runs out isn't much different from our original estimate.

Now, if you'd like to go back to the original proposition, which dealt with the remedy sodium sulphate, and tell us how much sodium sulphate chemical you are going to weigh out to make the mother tincture, then we can tell you exact figures.

You can't say, because I refuse to tell you what is in the mother tincture, and you thus can't show the complete calculation, the result can be anything I want it to be. Or you can say it, but nobody will pay any attention.

If you want to stretch this to 30C any way at all, let's see your working.

Let's see your working with sodium sulphate. And tell us how much sodium sulphate you're going to put in your mother tincture.

Oh yes, and how much belladonna plant will you use to make your belladonna mother tincture.

You can't complain of inexact answers when you refuse to state exact conditions.

Rolfe.

 

[steenkh]

I have no objection that serial dilutions cannot make forever. But you are not following that during serial dilution you cannot stop chemicals not to react with each other or with freshly pouring water and alcohol.

Yes, during the first dilution all possible reactions will happen, and nothing more happens when you make the number of original atoms more and more scarce by continuing the dilutions. In any case, even if the reactions would continue, you cannot avoid having the original MT atoms diluted away, even though they are now part of entirely new molecules. Think of it in this way: there are a finite number of atoms in the MT. It does not matter for the argument which molecules they form. When you dilute it, you may or may not get a reaction that produces new molecules, but the number of original MT atoms are the same! When you discard 99 parts out of hundred, you will also discard 99% of the original MT atoms, no matter what molecules they now form. And so on: the number of original MT atoms disappear, and only solvent atoms will be present. So, any new molecules that may be present will be formed by solvent only.

If that solvent is water, I would like you to reflect on how many kinds of molecules they can form that they would not have formed anyway!

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Yes, during the first dilution all possible reactions will happen (steen)

Thanks God, you given them courage to accept certain facts.

Now please accept it that in 2nd potency too a possible reaction can occur because you still have lot of molecules of chemicals of a plant.

 

[anor277]

Thanks God, you given them courage to accept certain facts.

Now please accept it that in 2nd potency too a possible reaction can occur because you still have lot of molecules of a plant.

Would you kindly give us an example of such a possible reaction? Your continued evasions of simple questions do not help your argument.

edited for spelling

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

when you deny my statement then I will explain. you just deny that a chemical reaction cannot possible in 2nd potency.

 

[anor277]

when you deny my statement then I will explain. you just deny that a chemical reaction cannot possible in 2nd potency.

You have been asked courteously to provide an example of a room temperature reaction between ethanol and a plant component. Either you know or you don't know. Which is it?

 

[Z]

It is highly unlikely, though not impossible, that any new reactions will occur at second potency. For one, 90% of your reagents are gone. For two, most chemicals will have undergone their reactions in the first mixing and stabilized; or, will continuously form and dissolve into the same compounds in a homogeneous fashion, until sufficient amounts of these atoms are diluted away.

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Locked up point. anor sent you here. lets wait for anor

 

[anor277]

Locked up point. anor sent you here. lets wait for anor

If you don't respond to polite enquiry, then what would be the point? I can assure that no one is criticizing your argument at my behest.

 

[Metullus]

I don't need to leave cookies out for Santa to know that he doesn't exist.

 

[Aepervius]

when you deny my statement then I will explain. you just deny that a chemical reaction cannot possible in 2nd potency.

Mr Sheikh read my statement about those reaction above. It DOES NOT MATTER how many reaction you will have. You do not understand what lavoisier princple is, isn't it ? You do not udnerstand simple arythmetic of dilution, isn't it ? I think it is time to give up on this hopeless thread. My cat is asking for attention (food and play) and I think he won't be happy if I dilute my attention to the computer, he wants me fine and concentrated on him. Have fun trying to bring Sisyphus's stone up the hill guys... Sorry, I mean, have fun trying to have a rational discussion with mr Sheikh, I have given up.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Now please accept it that in 2nd potency too a possible reaction can occur because you still have lot of molecules of chemicals of a plant.

Accepted. But do you have as many molecules of the plant as you did on the previous dilution?

[ ] yes

[ ] no


~~ Paul