Merged Their Return

[Correa Neto]

So, does the skeptical community accept that there IS or that there was "lost knowledge"...? Meaning is it possible that Man was once way more capable, then there was a great loss, possibly caused by some global catastrophe, and that history was forced to hit the reset button, per say? (*The two different kinds of stone work at Puma Punku being evidence of this.)

OR

Does skepticism dismiss that notion without absolute proof of it?

---

I propose that at some point in the past, there was on this earth, possibly interacting with early Homo Sapiens, a better/more technologically capable entity then we were. I do not suppose to know nor will I remark upon their origin. I hold only that Men 'looked up to them', and recorded their existence as soon as he could do so and continues even now to do so.
...snip...

You know, Star Trek: Voyager already dealt with this. The Voth, sentient dinosaurs, are living on the other side of the galaxy now and completely forgot about their Terran origins. One of the few really good Voyager episodes, by the way.

However, here, at the real world, there are absolutely no evidence pieces to back the existence of this species and their lost civilization.

Think about this:

Suppose the civilization never was composed by too many specimens and lived at a single city. Lets suppose this city was about the size of an average metropolis of our days, with something between 5 to 10 million individuals. Oh, yes, sure, such a city could have been erased from the face of the Earth or lay hidden somewhere under layers of sediment, volcanic ash, etc. Sor far so good, eh? Now, of course, comes the catch.

Consider now what it takes to build an mantain a city. It must have a "ring" of farms to provide food for its people. The area to be erased increased considerably. But wait, it gets worse for you especulation.

What else it takes? Buildings, vimanas, computers, tools of all sorts, all these things must be made of something. Any technological civilization must harvest natural resources and this leaves marks behind. Here's a small list of what is needed (not in order of importance):
Limestone, sand, gravel, coal, oil, Fe, Al, Cu, Mn, Mg, Ni, Pb, Zn, Li, Cd, REE, U, Nb, K, Na, Be, Hg, [add lots of other elements here]. Without these substances, there are no civilizations with advanced technology. These resources are and have always been scattered around the world. Any advanced civilization would need to spread at least across a continent to mine all these resources. And depending on the continent, it would not have access to certain ores. In doubt? USA is a hell of a big country, technologically advanced and rich in ores, right? despite this fact, within its territory, it would not find all the resources it needs. The nearest Nb source, for example, is at Canada. And if you are reading the news, you are probably aware of something related to REE production and China. Can you see now how big such a civilization would be and how unlikely it would be for us to miss its tracks?

Are the bad news over? No, there's more. What else it takes? Energy. Oil reffineries, coal plants, thermoelectrical power plants, nuclear power plants, solar pannels, wind farms, tidal/wave energy plants, geothermal stations, you name it. Where are their remains? Oh, don't forget you must mine the materials to build them all.

Over now? Nope. This civilization and the species which built it, evolved here, right? Where are the remains? Where are its fossils? Where are the fossils say, of dinosaurs or marsupials, showing increasing brain size and versatile hands?

Am I done? Not yet. This civilization was more advanced than ours, isn't it? Hey, we can foresee some catastrophes, can't we? We can issue volcanic eruptions and tsunami warnings, we can map risk areas, locate asteroids in collision course. We can also take measures to minimize losses. But what about "them"? So advanced and were wiped out? Oh, they "ascended"... Hell, why not just duck inside a bunker and move back to surface when the dust settled? Easier than "ascend to the heavens".

Done now? No. Only my patience run out. I wrote this f-wording wall of text for nothing, since you, KotA, will refuse to notice the gapping holes it shows in your proposals, beliefs, world views, whatever. Just like the other WOTs I posted, it will be ignored, since you seem to ignore the material (or pretend it does not exist) which contradicts your beliefs.

I won't even bother correcting the typos.

 

[King of the Americas]

You are the only one here not giving the builders credit for their knowledge and ability. They were just as smart as we are. They didn't have our technology, but they didn't need it, they were carving stone, not building skyscrapers or aircraft.

I think you are missing the point of historical advancement and evolution...

We are suppose to be improving along the way, through natural selection becoming better more specialized, more capable.

We are a growing expanding thing. We learn from our mistakes on yesterday, and build upon them.

But, evidence would suggest, that we also forget...REALLY big important stuff, like how to set a 2 ton piece of perfect hewn stone in place ever 9 seconds to build the Great Pyramid in 20 years.

The time it would have taken to carve those with simple hand tools is something you are failing to grasp...

 

[King of the Americas]

You know, Star Trek: Voyager already dealt with this. The Voth, sentient dinosaurs, are living on the other side of the galaxy now and completely forgot about their Terran origins. One of the few really good Voyager episodes, by the way.

However, here, at the real world, there are absolutely no evidence pieces to back the existence of this species and their lost civilization.

Think about this:

Suppose the civilization never was composed by too many specimens and lived at a single city....

...

Done now? No. Only my patience run out. I wrote this f-wording wall of text for nothing, since you, KotA, will refuse to notice the gapping holes it shows in your proposals, beliefs, world views, whatever. Just like the other WOTs I posted, it will be ignored, since you seem to ignore the material (or pretend it does not exist) which contradicts your beliefs.

I won't even bother correcting the typos.

And what if the following civilizations, built upon, and utterly cannibalized the previous, buildings, resources, and technologies, building over or atop ancient cities, overwriting the past with a new sense of self. It would be easy to do with no written language...

And in fact isn't this exactly what we find, cities built atop cities, the Great Pyramid stripped of its polished limestone covering, building techniques utterly lost to time itself.

We forgot, there was once a greater people here...

 

[Marcus]

I think you are missing the point of historical advancement and evolution...

We are suppose to be improving along the way, through natural selection becoming better more specialized, more capable.

We are a growing expanding thing. We learn from our mistakes on yesterday, and build upon them.

But, evidence would suggest, that we also forget...REALLY big important stuff, like how to set a 2 ton piece of perfect hewn stone in place ever 9 seconds to build the Great Pyramid in 20 years.

The time it would have taken to carve those with simple hand tools is something you are failing to grasp...

You're assuming that we're significantly smarter now, but we're not in this very recent(evolutionarily speaking) time frame of 2,000 years or so.

Most of this post I agree with though. We certainly have fallen out of practice building pyramids with period tools,they had centuries of practice and were very good at it. No doubt we have forgotten many of the techniques they used. You have to give them credit for their skills. Or do you? No doubt you wish to dis them and give credit to the corn gods.

 

[bruto]

So, does the skeptical community accept that there IS or that there was "lost knowledge"...? Meaning is it possible that Man was once way more capable, then there was a great loss, possibly caused by some global catastrophe, and that history was forced to hit the reset button, per say? (*The two different kinds of stone work at Puma Punku being evidence of this.)

OR

Does skepticism dismiss that notion without absolute proof of it?

---

I propose that at some point in the past, there was on this earth, possibly interacting with early Homo Sapiens, a better/more technologically capable entity then we were. I do not suppose to know nor will I remark upon their origin. I hold only that Men 'looked up to them', and recorded their existence as soon as he could do so and continues even now to do so.

I propose, they are no longer 'here', but that they have ascended to the heavens, and by in large no longer interact with Man.

If these propositions hold truth, how and where might a global people invite 'them back down'?

I see no evidence that any of the knowledge has been lost. There are, no doubt, many ancient artifacts that show extraordinary skill and effort, but I have yet to see any reason they could not be duplicated if anyone thought it necessary to expend the time and resources. Nobody these days would be likely to spend hundreds of years building a cathedral of stone with nothing but hand tools either, but this is not because we have lost some core capability. We no longer think the job worth doing in that way, and no longer practice the skills required.

Those ancient stones are very impressive. The ancient artisans who made them are admirable. But I have seen no reliable evidence that anyone with masonry skill and a lot of time to kill has attempted to reproduce the kind of work done with the stones of Puma Punku and found the task impossible. I honestly don't know what, if anytyhing, has been tried, because most of what I've seen so far is a bunch of crackpot mystical websites whose prevailing attitude is "wow, that's awesome. I can't imagine how they did it. It must have been [godsalienssuperiorbeingsorwhatever] because we, (who, it is implied, are the highest beings we know) can't figure it out.

Find me a reliable account of a master mason trying and failing to work sandstone in the manner of Puma Punku, and maybe then we can talk of lost knowledge.

 

[Akhenaten]

Just for fun, I suggest we refer to them from now on as the ET Corn Gods.

(pause for laughter from the old timers and cognoscenti)

Rut, rut, rut Tut, tut, tut

 

[King of the Americas]

I see no evidence that any of the knowledge has been lost.

...

Find me a reliable account of a master mason trying and failing to work sandstone in the manner of Puma Punku, and maybe then we can talk of lost knowledge.

We don't know how the "andesite" stones were cut. THEREFORE that knowledge is "lost".

Stop misrepresenting the work at Puma Punku.

 

[Yeah_Right]

We don't know how the "andesite" stones were cut. THEREFORE that knowledge is "lost".

Stop misrepresenting the work at Puma Punku.

Although saying we don't know how it was done, doesn't require an immediate leap to master masons that belong to ancient civliations with great tools. The reason it is lost, is that we don't rely on carving great slabs of stone to build modern structures. Wherea in those days that is all they had, so the probably came up with some inventive ideas that we don't have anymore. Perhaps if you really sat and thought about it, you could come up with rather mundane ideas of how it could be done.

In that podcast, Brian Dunning said that he was attempting to recreate the automobile differential, and since he couldn't do it, he surmised that it couldn't be done, even though the diffential existed. And when he finally saw one, he realized that he had not thought of enough possiblities of how the device was constructed. And that is how the the people at Tihuancu did it, they just had stone to work with, so they had to come up with some varied ideas of how to construct Puma Punku. And also they had a lot of people and time to put the thing together. I know that isn't as sexy as invoking the idea of great civlizations or whatever it is you think were the builders of that structure, but it is a lot closer to how it was really done.

 

[King of the Americas]

Although saying we don't know how it was done, doesn't require an immediate leap to master masons that belong to ancient civliations with great tools. The reason it is lost, is that we don't rely on carving great slabs of stone to build modern structures. Wherea in those days that is all they had, so the probably came up with some inventive ideas that we don't have anymore. Perhaps if you really sat and thought about it, you could come up with rather mundane ideas of how it could be done.

In that podcast, Brian Dunning said that he was attempting to recreate the automobile differential, and since he couldn't do it, he surmised that it couldn't be done, even though the diffential existed. And when he finally saw one, he realized that he had not thought of enough possiblities of how the device was constructed. And that is how the the people at Tihuancu did it, they just had stone to work with, so they had to come up with some varied ideas of how to construct Puma Punku. And also they had a lot of people and time to put the thing together. I know that isn't as sexy as invoking the idea of great civlizations or whatever it is you think were the builders of that structure, but it is a lot closer to how it was really done.

How to build a differential isn't "lost", just because HE doesn't know how to build/repair one. In fact, I could pull up plans to build ANY differential you'd like. On the other hand, NO ONE knows 'anymore' how they did what they did, so THAT KNOWLEDGE that was once known to man, is now LOST.

The leap to master masons isn't a leap at all. THOSE CUTS 'require' a master masons hands LOTS of them.

OR

an advanced now LOST technology

YOU are ignoring the amount of mastery level work.

 

[tsig]

The context and these artifacts, don't fit together, without applying some sort of advanced technology OR an literal army of master masons.

The problem is that I fully understand exactly what it takes to shape stone with hand tools...

Those inner corners with right angles are a real bitch when you have only chisels and hammers.

I am however, fully prepared to eat all of this, and kiss the feet of ANYONE who can reproduce one of these using modern and tools.

I don't see any popes around here so you can stop with the feet kissing.

 

[tsig]

Scroll down untill you find the sandstone scupltures.
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~blackash/craving.htm

They seem much more complex than anything I saw in Tiwanaku pics.

Feeling hungry and in the mood of kissing?

ETA 1- Took me less than 30s of googling. There's a lesson for you here, KotA.
ETA 2- You might also want to look at this link: http://www.pzhlz.net/Offert-Sandstone-Sculpture-Sandstone-Rilievo-p-22140

Loved the trees, bookmarked site.

 

[King of the Americas]

I don't see any popes around here so you can stop with the feet kissing.

ANYONE who could recreate one of those stones would deserve it MORE than any pope.

 

[Correa Neto]

And what if the following civilizations, built upon, and utterly cannibalized the previous, buildings, resources, and technologies, building over or atop ancient cities, overwriting the past with a new sense of self. It would be easy to do with no written language...

And in fact isn't this exactly what we find, cities built atop cities, the Great Pyramid stripped of its polished limestone covering, building techniques utterly lost to time itself.

See? My WOT was futile, as I predicted.

Against ignorance, the gods theselves contend in vain.

Yeah, I know. Should be a word other than "ignorance" but I am trying to keep it civil.

KotA, you insist in attempting to force-fit your fantasy in to the real world. You keep trying to find a gap to hide your lost golden-age civilization. The gap is way too small. Maybe you should consider such lost advanced civilization is not real.

I will not argue about pyramids. This topic has been beaten to death -again- recently.

I will, however, say five things (again, I think it will be useless so I won't even bother correcting typos and adding linkie thingies):

1. We are pretty good on detecting and understanding archeological sites which show a sucession of civilizations at the same site. Still, no evidence of this lost golden age.

2. Where the f-word are the tools created during this golden age? If the new civilization "cannibalized" materials from the older, these advanced tools would be priceless to the newcomers and kept as treasures, worship itens, etc. Where are these tools? Heck, even a kitchen steel knife would be a terrific thing to have if all you've got is bronze.

3. Who the f-word are you saying had no writing? Incas were also said to have nothing like writing, untill someone bothered looking at certain colored threads full of knots they kept. Now check the real (not the woo) age of Tiwanaku and connect the knots dots.

4. Try reading about experimental archeology. Quite often knowledge ("tricks of the trade") is lost; sometimes we no longer know how to use a certain tool. Someone had to test ho to create flint spears and axes, for example. Same is valid for carving stone. YOU may not know how it was made with the tools they had; this is not equal to advanced technology when compared to ours. It just means skills YOU do not have. Aztecs and Mayas, by the way, carved stones with obsidian tools. Precolumbian people performed surgery with obsidian tools. Could you do it? I bet not. Does it means they had advanced technology?

5. There are no evidence to back the catastrophe you propose. I am guessing you are sticking to the common 11Ky or 10Ky woolore date. Bring it back or forward as you will, something as huge as you want will be present only at the end of the Cretaceous. And since we have evidence of many smaller events, where the f-word is this recent woo catastrophe? Only in the woo minds.

We forgot, there was once a greater people here...

True. So great that anyone who attributes their works to someone/something else is disrespecting them.

If they could look in to the future, they would probably say something like:

"By Viracocha's hairs! Those guys live hundreds years after us, have tools we can't even wonder how they work but can't figure out how to carve stone! Have our seeds degraded with time?"

Or

"Our work was so great that the people who live after us think only the gods could have built them. We inspired awe and terror in the hearts of those who live after us!"

In this last case, I believe they would be proud, for their goals were achieved.

Ah, crap, no more wall of texts for you. Good information seems to have no use for you. You can stick to Rramjet's walls of crap since they fit better with you world view. Yeah. I'm tired.

 

[tsig]

I just realized something. Aliens can't look down. No necks. Once they're up there, they're up there and no amount of looking up will change that.

What? Have we finished playing "let's pretend" and moved on to banging our heads against a dead horse? There's advanced technology for that sort of thing nowadays.

Why yes, yes there is:

 

[bruto]

We don't know how the "andesite" stones were cut. THEREFORE that knowledge is "lost".

Stop misrepresenting the work at Puma Punku.

So what if we don't know how they did it? Are you sure nobody does? I have seen references to the techniques used in South America (among them, expanding wood wedges) that suggest the techniques were known and documented as far back as the sixteenth century. Andesite and its relatives have been worked by many civilizations in many different ways.

Forgetting how to do a task that is no longer needed is not the same thing as suggesting that some kind of superior knowledge has been irretrievably taken away by advanced beings. If you have some knowledge of true good faith efforts to duplicate the work (not just spectators saying "wow"), then provide it.

If there's a lost art here, it's more likely that of scholarship than stonework.

 

[tsig]

I wonder if you actually listened to this podcast. The Parthenon was built a 1000 years before Puma Punku and was much more impressive, but no one ever thought there was anyone from an advanced civilization involved.

It was built by white western males not by primitives in the jungle.

 

[Yeah_Right]

How to build a differential isn't "lost", just because HE doesn't know how to build/repair one. In fact, I could pull up plans to build ANY differential you'd like. On the other hand, NO ONE knows 'anymore' how they did what they did, so THAT KNOWLEDGE that was once known to man, is now LOST.

The leap to master masons isn't a leap at all. THOSE CUTS 'require' a master masons hands LOTS of them.

OR

an advanced now LOST technology

YOU are ignoring the amount of mastery level work.

I am afraid you missed the point, big surprise, Brian Dunning had never seen one before, and thus had not though of enough possibilities of how one could be built. So he erroneously assumed that even though they existed, they couldn't be built. Which is sort of what you're doing, you don't how they were built so you assume master masons and/or advanced technology. Why not think of how things like that could be built without resorting to master masons etc?

By the way, were these so called master masons not using advance technology and were they from the advanced civilization? Not quite clear on where you're coming from there.

 

[carlitos]

Great points Correa Neto. The reference to Ozymandias was apt.

 

[Yeah_Right]

It was built by white western males not by primitives in the jungle.

Oh yes, silly me.

 

[Zanders]

So, does the skeptical community accept that there IS or that there was "lost knowledge"...? Meaning is it possible that Man was once way more capable, then there was a great loss, possibly caused by some global catastrophe, and that history was forced to hit the reset button, per say? (*The two different kinds of stone work at Puma Punku being evidence of this.)

OR

Does skepticism dismiss that notion without absolute proof of it?

---

I propose that at some point in the past, there was on this earth, possibly interacting with early Homo Sapiens, a better/more technologically capable entity then we were. I do not suppose to know nor will I remark upon their origin. I hold only that Men 'looked up to them', and recorded their existence as soon as he could do so and continues even now to do so.

I propose, they are no longer 'here', but that they have ascended to the heavens, and by in large no longer interact with Man.

If these propositions hold truth, how and where might a global people invite 'them back down'?

Show me any evidence that some sort of ancient advanced technology existed. Anything. But you can't use things such as Puma Punku, I want actual remains, illustrations or writing about this technology. That stuff is all strangely absent.