Split Thread The validity of classical physics (split from: DWFTTW)

[humber]

Humber, the bunny sits on the belt and measure the wind. Everyone above the age of 5 is going to understand that the bunny are going to measure the slowest wind speed close to the belt.

I know that you don't understand this and/or are playing really stupid.

No, you must think you are 5.

(1) A paper hanging as described, will behave as in the video as long as it is suspended so that the pole does not heavy interact with it.
This is quite in order. If the paper were '"free but traveling at the speed of the belt", then the top of the strip would travel at the same speed as the bottom, but be shaped by the action of the boundary profile.
An observer who is also on the belt, would see that too.

Take a sheet of glass and place it an angle to the ground, and pour water down it. What happens? Is the water right next to the glass slowed, and the top pours over it? No, it is the opposite. The water forms strata, with the shallowest but fastest water at the leading edge. This is because that is the water that has been accelerated for the longest time under the influence of gravity.
That is flow. On the belt, the boundary flows,and will travel at different velocities, and so be of different pressure, and mass/time.

 

[humber]

Magic to you, humbre. Normal to the rest of the world when discussing frames of reference. All the information is there, but you have to get it straightened out for yourself.

If you would quit fooling around with words and stop throwing your attitude around, there is a good possibility that someone here can clear this up for you. A honest effort on your part is needed before that happens though. Asking coherent questions, listening and considering what others are telling you, and going through each step carefully will very likely get you on the same page as everyone else. Your choice.

Seems to me that when confronted with some simple logic, the cry is that I do not understand frames of reference. Maybe you don't.
Perhaps you can tell me where I am wrong in this instance. That may clear things up.

 

[fredriks]

I have no idea what you are saing humber.

 

[fredriks]

"tell me where I am wrong in this instance. That may clear things up. "

How many posts have explained this? 100? 1000?

 

[mender]

Humber, maybe this will help. Just answer simply whether you agree or not. Please save the witty/pithy remarks for later when we can both enjoy them.

1) G is what the bunny sees when sitting on the belt, moving back with the belt, and G is what the cart experiences when sitting on the belt, moving back with the belt. Both in a room of still air (other than what is being influenced by the treadmill).

2) A is what the bunny sees when sitting beside the belt, and A is what the cart experiences when the cart's forward progress on the belt matches the belt's rearward movement with respect to the floor.

3) A is also what the cart experiences when on the road outside moving at 10 mph in a 10 mph tailwind, according to an observer moving at the same speed as the cart (and the air).

4) A on the treadmill is when the cart is at the same speed as the air around it, i.e. not moving forward or backward wrt the treadmill itself but moving forward wrt to the belt as it passes under the cart at 10 mph.

5) The treadmill case as specified above models the interactions between the cart and the air to show what would happen if the cart was outside on the road moving at 10 mph ground speed with the wind when the wind was also at 10 mph wrt the ground. Profile A is what the cart experiences in both cases (assuming that the cart is able to achieve the outside condition as stated).

Do you agree?

 

[humber]

"tell me where I am wrong in this instance. That may clear things up. "

How many posts have explained this? 100? 1000?

Maybe the reason is that don't you understand what I am saying.
The flow is not the profile. That is symbolic of an instant in time, but the boundary flows, over time. The strip of paper would not hold that profile in reality, but travel like a piece of streamer been blown by the "wind" of the boundary layer. There is no need to invoke frames of reference to explain this.

 

[humber]

I'll take that as a:-

1) Can't

2) Can't either

Anfd I'm quite satisfied with that!!

The sheer optimism, Captain. The fuel tank is either half full or half empty.

 

[RossFW]

The sheer optimism, Captain. The fuel tank is either half full or half empty.

So, you'll take the time to answer three posts sarcastically, but won't answer ONE with any actual information or citation or admission of error.

Obviously covering up because you know you are wrong, and either silence or another stupid jab will convince me and everyone else of it.

 

[humber]

Humber, maybe this will help. Just answer simply whether you agree or not. Please save the witty/pithy remarks for later when we can both enjoy them.

Enjoyment mode is off

G is what the bunny sees when sitting on the belt, moving back with the belt, and G is what the cart experiences when sitting on the belt, moving back with the belt. Both in a room of still air (other than what is being influenced by the treadmill).

No, it sees or measures A. The observer cannot change that. The boundary is a physical phenomenon. The observer witness that, but does (should not) influence it. Your argument is self-defeating. Whatever rules you apply to the treadmill, if consistency applied to the real world, would still show a difference.
Also, when going with the belt, that is the same as stationary on the ground, not "windpeed", so they cannot be the same even from your point of view.
It is so obviously blowing the wrong way.

A is what the bunny sees when sitting beside the belt, and A is what the cart experiences when the cart's forward progress on the belt matches the belt's rearward movement with respect to the floor.

There is no 'beside the belt'. That "frame" is used to allow the observer to be at windspeed, and so traveling along with the cart, So, you agree, it is A.
The floor, like the still air, is "windspeed".

A is also what the cart experiences when on the road outside moving at 10 mph in a 10 mph tailwind, according to an observer moving at the same speed as the cart (and the air).

No that is yet another one. The windspeed error is enough on it's own, to deny equivalency.

A on the treadmill is when the cart is at the same speed as the air around it, i.e. not moving forward or backward wrt the treadmill itself but moving forward wrt to the belt as it passes under the cart at 10 mph.

That is "windspeed". A then the view from the cockpit. That is not like real wind.

The treadmill case as specified above models the interactions between the cart and the air to show what would happen if the cart was outside on the road moving at 10 mph ground speed with the wind when the wind was also at 10 mph wrt the ground. Profile A is what the cart experiences in both cases (assuming that the cart is able to achieve the outside condition as stated).

Do you agree?

No, they are not the same. The paddle tests show why.

 

[humber]

So, you'll take the time to answer three posts sarcastically, but won't answer ONE with any actual information or citation or admission of error.

Obviously covering up because you know you are wrong, and either silence or another stupid jab will convince me and everyone else of it.

What will this do?

 

[semper]

Give it up Humber.
Let the rabbit do the thinking.

 

[mender]

No, it sees or measures A. The observer cannot change that. The boundary is a physical phenomenon. The observer witness that, but does (should not) influence it. Your argument is self-defeating. Whatever rules you apply to the treadmill, if consistency applied to the real world, would still show a difference.
Also, when going with the belt, that is the same as stationary on the ground, not "windpeed", so they cannot be the same even from your point of view.
It is so obviously blowing the wrong way.

Okay, please let me know if I am understanding your way of expressing this. The bunny while standing on the belt and moving back with the belt measures the speed of the air at different heights above the belt with a hand held anemometer, then writes down those numbers. You look at the numbers and convert them to read what you say is real, meaning what the air in the room is really doing. The air high up is stationary and the air right above the belt is moving the fastest.

There is no 'beside the belt'. That "frame" is used to allow the observer to be at windspeed, and so traveling along with the cart, So, you agree, it is A.
The floor, like the still air, is "windspeed".

I'm not sure why you say that sitting beside the belt is not the same as sitting on the ground or being at wind speed or at the same speed as the still air. I'll use whatever term you want to express that. "Floor frame" just to keep it separate from the outside case?

That is "windspeed". A then the view from the cockpit. That is not like real wind.

I agree that A is the view from the cockpit.

I missed an excellent opportunity earlier today. The wind was blowing powder snow over the road as I was driving home, showing very clearly what the boundary layer just above the ground was doing in a real wind. The view from the "cockpit" of my vehicle was very interesting. If I used my vehicle as the reference instead of the ground, the air beside my vehicle was still and the boundary layer was moving backwards underneath my vehicle (profile A to a "floor frame" observer in the treadmill test). I went home and rigged up a "windsock" (toy parachute on a long stick to hang out the window and well to the side to indicate the relative wind) and put new batteries in my camcorder but the wind speed had dropped by then and the snow was no longer moving, so the movement of the boundary layer was no longer being indicated by snow moving over the ground.

I was unable to video that cockpit viewpoint. Hopefully another time. The reason for wanting to get that video is to compare it to the smoke on the treadmill test, taken from the cockpit viewpoint of the cart. I feel that would be considered as better proof than your paddle diagrams. I know that the cockpit viewpoint will show the same relative air movement in both cases.

Do you agree that the cockpit viewpoint video would show the same relative air movement (profile A) in both cases?

 

[humber]

Give it up Humber.
Let the rabbit do the thinking.

Open mindedness. I bet your really 'into' that.

 

[semper]

Open mindedness. I bet your really 'into' that.

And it seems you already let the rabbit do the typing.

 

[spacediver]

every morning when i'm off to the lab, I see this poster advertising humber college on the subway. It says something like "be all you can be" or something like that. Always makes me giggle

 

[humber]

And it seems you already let the rabbit do the typing.

It take it you use a parrot.

 

[semper]

And it seems you already let the rabbit do the typing.

It take it you use a parrot.

And you a carrot?

 

[humber]

Anubis is angry. He wants to take his inertial frame of reference back to Walmart.

 

[humber]

And you a carrot?

Wit. You are so not 'into' that.

 

[semper]

Anubis is angry. He wants to take his inertial frame of reference back to Walmart.

Give it up Humber, your hieroglyphics are an insult to yourself. We can tell why the rabbit has left the building.