• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Split Thread The validity of classical physics (split from: DWFTTW)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Take a sheet of glass and place it an angle to the ground, and pour water down it. What happens? Is the water right next to the glass slowed, and the top pours over it? No, it is the opposite. The water forms strata, with the shallowest but fastest water at the leading edge. This is because that is the water that has been accelerated for the longest time under the influence of gravity.
That is flow. On the belt, the boundary flows,and will travel at different velocities, and so be of different pressure, and mass/time.
Wheeeeeee! Off we go! Another new tangent! What fun this is, like some weird acid-induced sci-fi B-movie! Invasion of the Non-Newtonian Fluids.

Firstly, in order to demand that the cart can't possibly do what they say it does, and the treadmill is "false", you refuse to accept the equivalence of inertial frames as regards a simple flow of air over a surface.

When that line of argument begins to wear so thin that you sound like some flat-earth throwback, you dodge to a new line of, er, "reasoning", that even if that were so, the boundary layer is going in the wrong direction! Shock horror.

When we bare that argument down to its bones and pose questions over and over to make it obvious that this is wrong, and you can't have the gradient simultaneously inverted (the 9s and 1s) and simply mirrored (the 6s), then the word 'turbulence' is thrown in weakly, hoping that is enough to get off that hook.

When that's so bizarre that people press you on it, suddenly we're off to see the wizard again, this time about how the leading edge of a fluid is going to have accelerated for longer than the mass behind it, and there will be different pressures - just think what happens when you pour water down a slope! Yeah? No.

I think you'll find that yes, in general a fluid flowing over a surface is slowed down (that's the friction), the result being the gradient of velocities we have been discussing all month under the name of 'boundary layer'. In the case of a wide open space with wind blowing over it, or a treadmill with or without small animals, that assumes a reasonably laminar flow, as we have been discussing all month, arguing over which way it changes.

If someone goes to the trouble of demolishing the new arguments (sorry, non-arguments), what will it be next? Rubbery treadmill surfaces have different static electrical properties from tarmac? Air in a room has fewer negative ions, which is the staple diet of negative dragons?

I can't wait to find out, but I can't be bothered to argue about stupid imaginary differences in turbulence or "mass/time". It's sometimes fun to engage with - I decided to push you to admit that the velocity layers are inverted measured from the ground, and that clinches the issue utterly and entirely. You're busted. No need to dig your hole even deeper.

But carry on. Do let's hear more about the front part of the wind going faster, and the pressure and mass/time differentials. I guess that means that the wind over a certain point must be slowing down, since the first part of it has had more time to accelerate.

And you know, folks, when you stand outside in the wind for any length of time, you find it's true, the wind does indeed slow down. It even stops eventually. So there you have it. Treadmills are false.
 
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12801&stc=1&d=1232929514[/qimg]

Anubis is angry. He wants to take his inertial frame of reference back to Walmart.

:jaw-dropp

Have you ever been on a treadmill? In a car? In any moving vehicle??

No one could be this stupid....
 
Last edited:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12801&stc=1&d=1232929514[/qimg]

Anubis is angry. He wants to take his inertial frame of reference back to Walmart.

Hands down January 2009 Stundie Award winning material at its finest. Both in the category of arts and literature.

Nominated.

(I'm not sure if this qualifies? I'll have to check. Newtonian Conspiracy Theory is whole new animal)
 
Last edited:
Did I mention the gound?
The logic is sound. It is in accordance with what a physics book will tell you. The confusion is not mine.

Unfortunately, you refuse to be tested against the most basic problems from a physics book. What you spew here is consistently and completely contrary to what any physics text would teach.

No, my argument is entirely consistent and you know it. I have exposed your lack of understanding and knowledge of your own field, and now you want to try and shift the blame to me.

This is the sort of thing I come here for. The absurdity of the notion that you've put JJ in his place is absolutely brilliant.

It's curious that you can't find one single sole on or off this forum that would backup any of your ridiculously contrived interpretations of physics.
 
[qimg]http://postgraduate.humber.ca/images/postgraduate_calendar.jpg[/qimg]

every morning when i'm off to the lab, I see this poster advertising humber college on the subway. It says something like "be all you can be" or something like that. Always makes me giggle

Now you need to apologize for tarnishing the college's name by associating it with this thread. While you are at it, you could send an email to their physics department to give them an opportunity to respond here.
 
Seems to me that when confronted with some simple logic, the cry is that I do not understand frames of reference. Maybe you don't.
Perhaps you can tell me where I am wrong in this instance. That may clear things up.

I'm sorry, are you under the impression that all the garbage you've been posting about boundary layers bears even a tenuous relationship with logic?

If that's the case, you are badly mistaken.
 
Last edited:
Humber, of course the kite is gonna behave differently in your illustrated cases, because it's not attached to the treadmill for the entire duration in your second case.

I can't believe you've failed to understand this throughout this entire thread. You have serious learning issues.
 
There is no further use for your ramblings Humber, but your drawings are cool as long as they do not purport to be technical and are considered only as art. Also, there may be a job for your rabbit, if she can spare some time from looking after you.
 
Oh, I have been away and my presence here is so desperately needed in these times. Why will none of you see? Only humber has any sense about these matters.

As to the boundary layer, let me lay it on the line. Consider a smoke test, in a wind that is 10. Find the speed of the air at some height above the ground, and it will be 5. Then look at the treadmill, where everything is upside down, the belt is moving instead of the air. At the same height, it will be 5, yes. But where it is 6, it will not be also 6, because things are upside down. The treadmill is so wrong, but we can make a chart. The first column is the speed of the wind in the true windy wind. The second is the ersatz wind courtesy of the topsy turvy world of the treadmill. It is simple enough to use a calculator to get the answers.
Code:
air speeds
real "belt"
10       01
10       01
9         6
8         8
7         L
6         9
5         5
4         h
3         E
2         2
1         1
0         0
Although it superficially appears the same near the surface, and at a few places in between (5 and 8), it clearly is not the same. In fact, the belt is obviously showing signs of turbulence. You cannot deny this. It has been understood since the introduction of the TI-30 in the mid 1970s when we learned to do the math to calculate ShELL OIL.
 
Only humber has any sense about these matters.

You cannot deny this. It has been understood since the introduction of the TI-30 in the mid 1970s when we learned to do the math to calculate ShELL OIL.

No he's a 8008.
 
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12801&stc=1&d=1232929514[/qimg]

Anubis is angry. He wants to take his inertial frame of reference back to Walmart.

Okay, I'm willing to exchange answers, humber.

I'm assuming that your diagrams are meant to show a difference between what happens when Anubis releases the kite string outside while standing on the ground with a 10 m/s wind blowing and when he releases the kite string when moving on the now ubiquitous treadmill scenario.

First diagram: Anubis releases the string. I'll pick an arbitrary number of seconds that the kite takes to fall to the ground since you didn't specify a height. So the kite takes 3 seconds to fall to the ground. The distance between Anubis and the kite is again unspecified, so I'll say it is 50 m. When the kite is released, it immediately assumes the speed of the wind, moving away from Anubis at 10 m/s. In the three seconds that it takes for the kite to fall, the kite moves 30 m farther away, for a total distance that Anubis has to cover to get his kite of 80 m. He walks the 80 m along the ground, picks up his kite and takes it back to Walmart for a refund.

Second diagram: Anubis releases the string. The kite takes 3 seconds to fall to the ground. The distance between Anubis and the kite at the time of release is 50 m. When the kite is released, it immediately assumes the speed of the air (which is still) and falls to the treadmill surface (very long treadmill to make sure that everything happens only on the treadmill). Anubis is still on the treadmill moving away from the place that he released the kite string at 10 m/s. In the three seconds that it takes for the kite to fall, Anubis moves 30 m farther away, for a total distance that Anubis has to cover to get his kite of 80 m. He walks the 80 m along the treadmill belt, picks up his kite and takes it back to Walmart for a refund.

In both cases, the kite lands the same distance away from Anubis. I don't think you were meaning for your diagrams to show this particular result, so I'll assume you were in a hurry. Or do you feel that your diagrams somehow show a different result from what I've stated?

When you have a moment, could you go back to my previous post and continue our conversation? Thanks.
 
Last edited:
Humb, I don't think you should be quite so cavalier, these shots at us can sometimes rickochet back at you!
 
Last edited:
In both cases, the kite lands the same distance away from Anubis. I don't think you were meaning for your diagrams to show this particular result, so I'll assume you were in a hurry. Or do you feel that your diagrams somehow show a different result from what I've stated?

Very generous interpretation of the comic.

Miine: "If a kite falls in a vacuum because a Dog headed God on a treadmill let it go, does it make a sound?"
 
I think I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion.

Ahh, talking to humber is just like this. Too bad that we don't get money for arguing. We would be rich by now, just by humber alone.


I think I was getting money for arguing, because I was doing it on the computers at work (while I should have been working) and still getting paid by the hour for it. :)

Unfortunately, the work computers now have a net filters on them which won't let me access the forums, so I have had to pay to do this this from an internet kiosk for a while now.

Refute that, Brian_M, are you arguing in your spare time?


Apparently I am arguing in my spare time, and wasting good money on it too. I'm not going to bother anymore. Even in the nonsense world of Monty Python, paying good money to have an unsatisfying argument in your own time doesn't make any sense at all.

Monty Python said:
Man: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.

Mr Vibrating: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.

Man: Oh I've had enough of this.

Mr Vibrating: No you haven't.

Man: Oh Shut up.


(Argument Clinic)
 
Ooo, I haven't done that since '72

No kidding! It really 5376608 my mind to see this stuff again! Makes me want to 316008 on down and give 317718 a 4614 5!

Back on topic, I've noticed that when there are 2 many 35007 references, some 50208 start to 53553580 about certain things. They then act like 618 5315515 and either 376616 with 3376 or 7105 themselves.

So, would this post be 37816173 for the literature or the math prize, or is it just 378163771? That would be prime if you could tell me!

That's enough from my 0.0761 4 now, don't want to 3631538 you guys with 36718.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom