The Twin Towers at free fall speed

What part isn't falsifiable? They lay out all of the data they gather and detail to a ridiculous extreme their analysis. If you want to prove it false, show that an assumption is false or do the FEA yourself and show that they fibbed.

That's not what "falsifiable" means. The problem with FEA analysis (their's in particular) is that we can't verify it independently. Why is it acceptable to you? Have you actually verified it independently or do you simply take their word for it?

Good luck. There's a math error (conversion from degrees to radians that I botched) in one of the appendices, however it's still within my "fudge factor" and doesn't change the conclusions.

Still sifting. Please be patient on this. I'm fine with a fudge factor if the basic equation doesn't beg the question to begin with.

.
 
Again, I don't think you understand what "falsifiability" means. This isn't about some standards I made up. That's what makes it a useful concept. Ask James Randi if you don't get it. Or better yet, read it here.


First line from the definition you cited (bolding mine):
Falsifiability or refutability is the logical possibility that an assertion can be shown false by an observation or a physical experiment.


Noting that the WTC towers are still standing, for instance, would be an example of an observation that renders the NIST report falsifiable. So were many of the other examples in the list from antisophist I quoted.

You seem to have "falsifiability" confused with "testability".
 
Last edited:
That's not what "falsifiable" means. The problem with FEA analysis (their's in particular) is that we can't verify it independently. Why is it acceptable to you? Have you actually verified it independently or do you simply take their word for it?

You're trying to apply the concept of scientific proof to NCSTAR? It just doesn't work like that.

In this case we "take their word for it". Because they are educated in the matter, we as a society have already "proofed" them. They've been tested and found capable of making observations and decisions on their own. They're held to a standard and licensed.

The burden of proof you're trying to assign NCSTAR doesn't apply. It's nonsense really, but very clever from a Truther.

You get into cars, you ride the bus, you go to work, you go to the mall. How do you manage? How do you walk into a building whose structure hasn't been "falsified"? Shall we "verify independently" the working of the engine before we get on the plane?

The NCSTAR is an accident investigation based on established scientific methods. All of these methods are in fact "falsifiable". Most of them come from the fascinating world of material science.

As for the FEA, someone here can help me, but I believe their is a proprietary software issue. If you really want to spend the money I believe you can buy the software or license it at least. You can then do all the "falsifying" you want.

If you want to make a game of "beliefs" I'm more inclined to "believe" NIST than a bunch of no nothing half wits that can't put together a decent scientific paper in 8 years.

If I'm going to "believe" anyone about structural engineering it's going to be structural engineers, not theologians, boat builders, cold fusion quacks or whacked out disc jockeys.
 
You guys... I have no hope for jay, but several of the rest of you don't understand falsifiability either.

The NIST theory is falsifiable because, using the formal definition, it is logically possible for observation or experiment to verify or contradict its conclusions.

The NIST theory is also testable, which is a stricter version, because one does not need to rely upon observation. One can devise an experiment, and, in theory, conduct the test whenever one wishes.

Let's tackle the muddy case first, that of observation. This does not mean we "observe the Towers aren't standing" or "we observe a meteor didn't do it." That proves nothing beyond the observation itself. Instead, the observation is as follows: If, in the future, an identical structure should happen to be struck by an aircraft, in a materially similar manner, will we observe consistent behavior or not? This question can be asked, makes logical sense, and provides a definite answer. Therefore, the theory is falsifiable.

Now, since we have no expectation that anyone will build a near copy of a WTC Tower, nor that it will be hit by a passenger airliner, we may have a very long time to wait. This is why the stricter definition testable is more useful.

So, how do we test the NIST theory? Newtons Bit has already given one correct answer -- we can build our own finite element model and do experiments on that. And, guess what, many people have. That list includes Weidlinger Associates, Purdue University, University of Edinburgh, Arup, and University of California at Berkeley. The results, incidentally, are unanimous: Apart from fine details, all confirm NIST's result.

The Truthers like to trot out this ridiculous canard that they cannot test NIST's theory unless NIST gives them the model, and until NIST does so, they are justified in maintaining their idiotic beliefs. This excuse (a call to perfection logical fallacy) fails for multiple reasons. For starters, the NIST models are available, you just have to pay for them. Some are in the public domain. But beyond this, if you wanted to test the theory, you wouldn't use their models in the first place. If you get their models and re-run them, you will get the same answer, unless NIST actually never ran the model in the first place and made up results out of thin air. (They did not.) Instead, you are better off making your own models, because if you use the same models you expose yourself to systematic error. All of the researchers I listed above built their own models, each with its own tradeoffs and limitations. Personally I favor the Purdue model above all others, including NIST's, for reasons I expounded upon in my whitepaper -- but any one will do to prove the basic hypothesis of fire + impact + time = collapse.

Other ways to test NIST's theory include first principles analysis and scale modeling. I described this process in my first appearances on Hardfire. While the calculations I ran through in these three shows are very simple, they nonetheless are valid tests one can apply to NIST's theory. But one can do much more detailed tests by constructing models based on these calculations, and some, notably Dr. Quintiere at Northwestern, have done so. Results? Again, small discrepancies from NIST's results, but utterly consistent with the overall theory.

You can also see that NIST's theory is testable because it has been tested, specifically to compare it against other competing theories. The best known is the "pancake hypothesis." In brief, this hypothesis is similar to NIST's in terms of impact and fire, but differs with respect to structural response. In the "pancake hypothesis," voiced by FEMA early in the investigation, the collapse mode initiates when floor connections fail, leaving columns with longer unsupported lengths, leading to elastic buckling. In NIST's theory, the floor connections must remain intact, as this delivers an eccentric load after the floor trusses buckle and sag. NIST provides numerous tests and compares these to both hypotheses, in the end concluding that the "pancake hypothesis" is wrong -- it cannot be reconciled with video evidence, and it is a failure mode that the Towers were relatively resilient against. NIST's theory, in contrast, survives these tests. But, were this not the case, NIST would have discarded this theory. Hence, the theory is testable. It's been tested!

In general, to decide whether or not a theory is testable, just ask yourself: How would I check this to see if it's true? What would a different result look like?

Here's a practice deal. One genuninely unfalsifiable theory is the Creationist theory of evolution. How would you test that some unseen, ill-defined supernatural force guides evolution? Can't do that? All right, let's give up on testability and go for falsifiability -- is it possible to observe evolution that definitely does not fit this definition? The answer is no.

Quite obviously, this has nothing in common with NIST's theory. Virtually every bit of work that they did, from digging through old documentation to running computer models under different scenarios to destructively evaluating components, is a test designed to confirm or disprove one of their core assumptions. Read it with this mindset and it will become much clearer to you why they did what they did.

Let's not talk about this anymore. It's all in the reports. All you have to do is read them. Pay particular attention to NCSTAR1-2B chapter 9.12 and NCSTAR1-6 chapter 9.4.4.
 
Last edited:
If you get their models and re-run them, you will get the same answer, unless NIST actually never ran the model in the first place and made up results out of thin air. (They did not.)

This seems to be the crux of the matter, and what jay is getting at. The NIST model isn't falsifiable because he can't use it. Or testable for that matter. (which one, I don't know)

I don't know where anyone has made a scientific claim or observation, only to have someone scream "I want evidence, give me your experiment and apparatus!"

You've got the data, you've got the experiment, but you're not getting the apparatus.

I guess it's a "put your money where your mouth is". You either continue to accuse some 200 professionals of gross negligence or outright fraud and have no evidence to support it, or you come up with the cash and run the simulations yourself. Seems kinda stupid though, since at least 5 others have run actual independent simulations and come to the same conclusions.

Maybe they are all in on it too.
 
GREAT.

Then prove to us that NIST is wrong. Show it is falsifiability in that steel girders don't undergo thermal expansion in prolonged fires.

If they don't expand, then you have just shown them to be false.

Now that we know that they do expand, then build a model using steel beams. Now put it under fire for a prolonged period and see if thermal expansion can cause it to collapse.

Wow.. I'm glad we have cleared that up. Feel free to show that NIST is wrong. It shouldn't take too much work. I mean there are only about 100 fully peer reviewed engineering journal articles which support the NIST results... as such it has been shown to be provable/falsifiable. I'm still waiting to find JUST ONE that says NIST is wrong. In any language, anywhere in the world. Will you be the one to get it done?
 
Good question. It basically mean "testable".

If you have a theory about anything, i.e., that water turns solid at 0 degrees C, then you can test that theory by putting water in a 0 C atmosphere and see what happens.

If it indeed turns solid, then your theory is corroborated. If it doesn't then it's falsified.

If you say "water has a soul" then the next miracle that needs to be performed is to design a test for the existence of the soul of water. If you cannot even test for it, it's not falsifiable, that is, there's no way to tell if the claim is even false or possible.

If there's no way to tell if a statement is false or possible, then it's simply meaningless--or at least meaningless as a scientific claim.

If it's meaningless as a scientific claim, then it's not science. If someone tries to pass this claim off as science, then they are participating in pseudoscience. PERIOD.

That's the difficulty with the NIST theory of collapse. There isn't anything testable about it. Maybe I missed it. If so, please point it out.

In your analogy, there is no way, in principle, to test the soul of water. But if there exists a way to test a claim, in principle, then it is testable, according to your definition. You could, in principle construct an exact replica of, say WTC 1, damage it to the extent you know it was damaged by Flight 11, throw on some jet fuel as an accelerant, set fire to it, and see if it falls in pretty much the same manner. Any obstacles can, in theory, be overcome (money, structural plans, ignorance, etc).

Of course, you could just learn something about structural engineering a lot cheaper. ;)
 
Yes i would say that the towers fell at speed slightly slower
than free fall speed, so how fast was the debris falling can
do a calculation to figure out the speed?

:):):)
 
Yes i would say that the towers fell at speed slightly slower
than free fall speed, so how fast was the debris falling can
do a calculation to figure out the speed?

:):):)

Already been done repeatedly.

the outer panels which sheared off were falling at free fall speed... but it doesn't matter because even CD's don't fall at freefall speed. So it is (and always has been) a massive red herring.

ETA: YOur ignorance is showing.
15 seconds is 75% LONGER than freefall. That isn't "slightly slower."
22 seconds is over 200% LONGER than freefall. That isn't "slightly slower."

do us a favor, go back to school and take some basic science classes...
 
Last edited:
Yes i would say that the towers fell at speed slightly slower
than free fall speed, so how fast was the debris falling can
do a calculation to figure out the speed?

:):):)
Got physics? The towers fell much slower than free fall. You must not race much. Slightly slower to you is much slower to me.

If I run the hundred yard dash in 9.2 seconds and you run it in 12.08 seconds; you are not slightly slower you are much slower.

And if you run the hundred yard dash like the WTC collapse and most of you is very close to the finish line but not quite, and parts of you almost make it across the finishing line 30 seconds after the start of the race; you are much slower than free fall. There is a 5 story high pile of rubble, so much of the WTC never made it to the ground, never finished the 9.2 free fall due to finish-line barrier syndrome. What we have on 911 for the truth movement is a few fringe conspiracy theorist who have never defined the race and can't do physics.

The WTC did not fall close to free fall, the towers fell much slower.

The analogy is great, if I ran 2 miles in 9:12 and you ran it in 12:05 minutes; A LOT slower. Not slightly slower, a big time you lost slower; by a bunch. With physics or a stop watch you could time the various aspects of collapse on 911 and see how slow the WTC fell. The parts collapsing and destroying the WTC were slowed much compared to free falling parts outside of the WTC structure.

An average collapse speed of 34 m/s is a lot slower than 44 m/s. Math and physics help, track can't hurt, and practical knowledge is best applied liberally to the moronic nonsense of 911 truth.
 
Let's tackle the muddy case first, that of observation. This does not mean we "observe the Towers aren't standing" or "we observe a meteor didn't do it." That proves nothing beyond the observation itself. Instead, the observation is as follows: If, in the future, an identical structure should happen to be struck by an aircraft, in a materially similar manner, will we observe consistent behavior or not? This question can be asked, makes logical sense, and provides a definite answer. Therefore, the theory is falsifiable.

This is true, but somewhat misleading. Not intentionally. What I mean is: the claim "the towers fell due to plane impact, subsequent fires and time" is only as testable as it is specific.

We're on the right track here, so don't take this reply as criticism but as refinement. The problem with the NIST theory is that it's too general to test. It's not too much to ask a person who makes a knowledge claim about whatever (how a bank was robbed, for instance) how their theory can predict some evidence not yet collected, AND be able to reconcile most of the existing evidence. No one here should disagree with this.

Their theory should be able to predict something that is not trivial and that contradicts other theories about the event. Predicting that the towers are still standing, as Ryan points out, does not distinguish any particular collapse mechanism from another.

A "pancake" collapse should predict the stacking of floors at the bottom, as well as the particular failure modes of the angle iron where the floor trusses were bolted and welded--not to mention the failure of this theory to account for the collapse of the core structure. As Ryan points out in his post, there are lots of reasons to discount the pancake theory.

Are there also reasons to discount the inward bowing theory?

So, how do we test the NIST theory? Newtons Bit has already given one correct answer -- we can build our own finite element model and do experiments on that. And, guess what, many people have.

So why can't a live study be performed, or at least outlined for independent corroboration? If it worked in the models and the model are valid, then it should work in real life too, right?

The Truthers like to trot out this ridiculous canard that they cannot test NIST's theory unless NIST gives them the model, and until NIST does so, they are justified in maintaining their idiotic beliefs. This excuse (a call to perfection logical fallacy) fails for multiple reasons.

NIST gives a lot of detail about the FEA parameters and the global model but there are some problems with this type of theory corroboration that have nothing to do with "perfection" or fitting some arbitrary requirements.

First, the global model was only designed to show "collapse initiation" without regard to what happened after that. Anyone who works with data models--whether in finance or sociology or weapons design or whatever--knows that these models can be bent along a range of inputs and can (in the case of NIST's model) demonstrate or refute a claim of structural collapse depending on the inputs.

Another part of the problem with these models is that they fail to predict evidence. If the model predicts steel temps at 700C for 45 min, but the hottest any of the recovered steel got was 625C for 15 min, then there is reason to be skeptical of the model.

Yes, it's possible that steel exposed to hotter temps for longer does exist. It's also possible it does not exist. So far, the data models have not helped predict any evidence. It doesn't invalidate them outright, but it should be cause for a healthy bit of skepticism.

For starters, the NIST models are available, you just have to pay for them. Some are in the public domain. But beyond this, if you wanted to test the theory, you wouldn't use their models in the first place. If you get their models and re-run them, you will get the same answer, unless NIST actually never ran the model in the first place and made up results out of thin air. (They did not.) Instead, you are better off making your own models, because if you use the same models you expose yourself to systematic error. All of the researchers I listed above built their own models, each with its own tradeoffs and limitations. Personally I favor the Purdue model above all others, including NIST's, for reasons I expounded upon in my whitepaper -- but any one will do to prove the basic hypothesis of fire + impact + time = collapse.

That's all well and good, but as I said above, whatever conditions are stipulated in the models should be repeatable in a live test. They will be scaled differently, but the principle should be demonstrable in real life. If a data model predicts a particular failure, but the live model, following the same parameters, does not, then we know the computer model has not taken some factor into account.

I don't think it's controversial to say that in a complex system like the crash site of the towers, there can be all kinds of factors that the model designers may be leaving out or over-or underestimating. That's why a particular principle should be tested, i.e.: "steel girders with k static force from x,y directions and t temp over m time will result in these failure modes f and j."

This kind of statement is what the models should be able to produce and it should be demonstrable in real life. That's what I'm asking for. A testable statement. This is not asking for "perfection" of the models or some unobtainable goal: this is simply theory corroboration.

Corroboration from computer model can be useful, but it is only a step towards producing a satisfactory theory.

Other ways to test NIST's theory include first principles analysis and scale modeling. I described this process in my first appearances on Hardfire. While the calculations I ran through in these three shows are very simple, they nonetheless are valid tests one can apply to NIST's theory. But one can do much more detailed tests by constructing models based on these calculations, and some, notably Dr. Quintiere at Northwestern, have done so. Results? Again, small discrepancies from NIST's results, but utterly consistent with the overall theory.

As usual, I've got some research to do on this front. If you have a link, that would be nice, but I'll look for it as well.

NIST provides numerous tests and compares these to both hypotheses, in the end concluding that the "pancake hypothesis" is wrong -- it cannot be reconciled with video evidence, and it is a failure mode that the Towers were relatively resilient against. NIST's theory, in contrast, survives these tests. But, were this not the case, NIST would have discarded this theory. Hence, the theory is testable. It's been tested!

And yet no direct corroborative evidence of NIST's theory has been recovered. Does that mean it doesn't exist? No. But their theory isn't useful in this regard. It should be.

Should we be satisfied that their computer model "initiated collapse"? If NIST had found steel that had gotten as hot for as long as their models predict, then that would be good theory corroboration. But they didn't. It doesn't mean they're wrong, but it does leave a lot of room to doubt.

There's also the issue of unaccounted evidence. There are a lot of explanations as to why various accounts of molten metal, iron spheres in the dust and heat-corroded steel shouldn't be part of the NIST explanation, but in the final analysis, no experiments have been run to test these explanations. Why not? Why hasn't anyone been able to crush up sheetrock and use it to form a eutectic? Why hasn't anyone been able to melt aluminum in a documented test and pour it from a known height to see what it looks like? Why hasn't anyone boiled down blood to try and form some iron spheres?

I'm not looking for perfection, I'm just looking for testable claims.


.
 
When he says model does he mean an actual scale model?

He must be, because he seems to totally ignore the other computer simulations that confirm exactly what he's demanding.
 
So why can't a live study be performed, or at least outlined for independent corroboration? If it worked in the models and the model are valid, then it should work in real life too, right?
Right. Are you complaining that no one else has built a model that you like, or are you saying that something is stopping you from building your own?
 
When he says model does he mean an actual scale model?

Yes. And I think he means full-scale.

If only engineers could spend a century and close to a billion dollars developing the technology to accurate model a structure without needing to resort to physical models!
 
Yes. And I think he means full-scale.

If only engineers could spend a century and close to a billion dollars developing the technology to accurate model a structure without needing to resort to physical models!

No. "Model" refers to the computer simulations. As distinct from a "real life" test.

You misunderstand me.
 
Right. Are you complaining that no one else has built a model that you like, or are you saying that something is stopping you from building your own?

I'm saying someone could build a real life test corroborating the computer models IF we knew the specific parameters to apply.

Again, it should be something like "steel trusses will exhibit f failure modes at exposure to t temp for m minutes." Undoubtedly it will be more detailed, but the more detailed, the more precisely a test can be constructed to verify it.


.
 
Not free fall velocity does not require "no resistance" just no resistance greater than air-resistance.

Air does play a role in free-fall speeds
 
I'm saying someone could build a real life test corroborating the computer models IF we knew the specific parameters to apply.
None of this is covered here? I have to admit I'm still puzzled as to what you lack.

# NIST NCSTAR 1-5B: Experiments and Modeling of Structural Steel Elements Exposed to Fire
# NIST NCSTAR 1-5C: Fire Tests of Single Office Workstations
# NIST NCSTAR 1-5D: Reaction of Ceiling Tile Systems to Shocks
# NIST NCSTAR 1-5E: Experiments and Modeling of Multiple Workstations Burning in a Compartment
# NIST NCSTAR 1-5F: Computer Simulation of the Fires in the World Trade Center Towers
# NIST NCSTAR 1-5G: Fire Structure Interface and Thermal Response of the World Trade Center Towers
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom