The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other Belief Systems

[Marduk]

"it's just things, people are what are important."

just for a minute there you were starting to get rational, then you went and spoiled it with that last sentence. People aren't important, its what they do that counts and buddy what she did was ripped you off.....

Do you think you are important in the grand scheme of things ?

if so, how important ?

 

[six7s]

I got off work at 11:30 pm and had a boring ride of about 40 min. to get home. As soon as I had gotten onto the highway, I had this overwhelming premonition that something horrible was happening concerning this woman who was at my house, and that it would be in jeopardy, our ability to continue any sort of relationship with this person unless I prayed about it.
This was not just some normal kind of thought that would pass by, but something that would not leave me alone. I felt compelled to pray about it and as I got into it, I became pretty emotional and cried over it, as if I really cared and that it made any difference.
When I got home, there was plenty of evidence that she had just recently cleared out, which she could have easily done since she knew when I would be home. Instead of freaking out over what I found, I stayed calm because I figured that God had prepared me for it by telling me something was happening, as it happened. I think God changed me by giving me the ability to put things in the proper perspective and not getting vindictive about it.
Later I told her, "it's just things, people are what are important."

That's nice for you

Where does critical thinking enter the picture in regard to 'The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other Belief Systems'?

 

[Ethnikos]

That's nice for you

Where does critical thinking enter the picture in regard to 'The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other Belief Systems'?

This story was a response to your question about "forget all the times that praying has been obviously and undeniably futile, and yet they remain faithful (aka deluded) and optimistic (aka willfully ignorant of reality)"
I could have been only demonstrating what is brought up as a criticism of people who pray, as in, making up an excuse for why their prayer does not give the desired results. This is similar to what happened to me in this story. The difference may be that I probably would not have been praying for anything at all if I had not been prompted to by the Holy Spirit. Once I was alerted to there being a need for my praying, I went into what might be the default human mode of prayer, which is to ask for what we want for ourselves, without regard to reality or what may be best but goes against our selfish nature. Regardless of that limitation on my own part, God was able to work through my willingness to make whatever change necessary for my playing a part, to do something with me to where eventualy it would work out well in the long run scheme of things.
I could have reacted by thinking, "What a rotten thing for God to do for me when I asked for something nice." That would have been normal, but since I allowed the Spirit to work in me in the first place, I was prepared to accept whatever happened.

 

[paximperium]

I could have reacted by thinking, "What a rotten thing for God to do for me when I asked for something nice." That would have been normal, but since I allowed the Spirit to work in me in the first place, I was prepared to accept whatever happened.

You are just making up an excuse for a complete and utter failure of your prayer. Sounds like NOTHING will ever change your mind; a positive or negative result is ALWAYS god's will.

So where is this critical thinking part again?

 

[Ethnikos]

Coming home and finding that she had ransacked your house, and later finding that she had stolen from you was God's way of telling you that it's unwise to share your home with a crazy person. Maybe he arranged this little demonstration so you would wise-up and get this person out of your house before, rather than after, she murdered you in your sleep.

I guess I did not learn my lesson, if that was what it is. I have another otherwise homeless person living with me now. Luckily I have some other people to help out the situation. He is a distant relative who I did not know existed until he needed a place to live. My sister's husband's cousin's wife's brother. I made it known to these people I was not taking any responsibility for him other than to give him a place to stay.

 

[Ethnikos]

or possibly she only bothered to manipulate you and steal from you because she knew that your association with your God made you weak. She certainly didn't believe in your god did she and look at what she gained i.e. all your stuff
apparently God allows people to rip off his followers so in my mind he much more like this, than this

It didn't exactly take much manipulation, if that was what it was. This was a crazy girl who would walk up to me and try to have a conversation while I would be gassing up my car on my way home, after midnight. One night I saw her sitting on a guard rale. I stopped and asked her if she was ok. She said, "Can I live with you?" I told her to get in the car. She was really sick because she was just walking up and down the street in the rain all day. As soon as she tried to stop and rest, the cops would roust her up and make her move on. If I had not taken her in when I did she would have been dead. That's just a fact. She was laid up for a week with a high fever and I had to feed her and take care of her. It really took about two months to get to where she seemed healthy. She had been so skinny and malnourished that she looked like someone about to die anyway.
I do not think my belief in God made me weak. It made me not be afraid to do what I thought was right. I did not think God was going to allow anything to happen that I was not able to get over.
She did have a sort of belief in God, as much as you can expect from a Catholic upbringing. She was an actual Catholic, as in being confirmed and all that sort of thing they are expected to do. Now that could be a point of criticism against me, that I would take in someone I considered to be a Christian, where if she was not, I may not have. I don't know.

 

[Ethnikos]

You are just making up an excuse for a complete and utter failure of your prayer. Sounds like NOTHING will ever change your mind; a positive or negative result is ALWAYS god's will.

So where is this critical thinking part again?

The act of praying itself is useful even if we do not get a wish granted.

 

[paximperium]

The act of praying itself is useful even if we do not get a wish granted.

So? How does that have anything at all to do with "The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other belief Systems"?

 

[six7s]

Where does critical thinking enter the picture in regard to 'The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other Belief Systems'?

This story was a response to your question about "forget all the times that praying has been obviously and undeniably futile, and yet they remain faithful (aka deluded) and optimistic (aka willfully ignorant of reality)"
I could have been only demonstrating what is brought up as a criticism of people who pray, as in, making up an excuse for why their prayer does not give the desired results. This is similar to what happened to me in this story. The difference may be that I probably would not have been praying for anything at all if I had not been prompted to by the Holy Spirit<snip/>

Although you can obviously write - you seem incapable and/or unwilling to read.

Consequently, I get the impression that you are irredeemably deluded

Please, prove me wrong by dispensing with the inane anecdotes and, instead, posting something, anything (!) that illustrates you can think, critically, about your thoughts/opinions/beliefs/etc in relation to the subject of this discussion: The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other Belief Systems

 

[Ethnikos]

So? How does that have anything at all to do with "The Truth of Christianity vs. All Other belief Systems"?

Maybe I am off topic. Originally I was jumping in to refute some negative statement about prayer.
I do not have enough experience with other religions to make a direct comparison and come up with a rational conclusion. I happen to be a Christian so everything about religion to me is seen from that perspective. People I have known who appeared to be adopting some sort of non Christian religion seemed to me to be doing it in order to act unethically, in a christian way of thinking about ethics. Any view I would have would be heavily biased and useless to an objective examination of the question at hand. I guess I am just being a troll for Jesus to defend against what I think is unfair criticism of my party. Something like that. Sorry. I guess I should have my own thread, "Only nice things about Jesus". Of course that would be a one post thread, so not too exciting of a prospect.

 

[Marduk]

It didn't exactly take much manipulation, if that was what it was. This was a crazy girl who would walk up to me and try to have a conversation while I would be gassing up my car on my way home, after midnight. One night I saw her sitting on a guard rale. I stopped and asked her if she was ok. She said, "Can I live with you?" I told her to get in the car.

If she was that sick then you should have driven her to hospital, they would have arranged for her to receive professional help and given her a refuge to stay in, your act did her no good at all, unless its from the perspective of enriching herself by selling your belongings

She was really sick because she was just walking up and down the street in the rain all day. As soon as she tried to stop and rest, the cops would roust her up and make her move on. If I had not taken her in when I did she would have been dead.

So being a christian males you a precog now, awesome, whats next weeks lottery numbers

That's just a fact.

Its your unqualified opinion

She was laid up for a week with a high fever and I had to feed her and take care of her. It really took about two months to get to where she seemed healthy. She had been so skinny and malnourished that she looked like someone about to die anyway.

right so you compounded your error by attempting to care for her yourself, if she had died you would probably still be in prison

I do not think my belief in God made me weak.

Again your opinion dripping with personal bias

It made me not be afraid to do what I thought was right.

what you did was wrong, you realised she needed medical help and you thought yourself qualified to offer it, you weren't

I did not think God was going to allow anything to happen that I was not able to get over.

Yup I'm sure you would have been a great benefit to the other poor souls in your cell block

She did have a sort of belief in God, as much as you can expect from a Catholic upbringing.

So the catholics are not proper christians then ?
didn't they invent it ?

She was an actual Catholic, as in being confirmed and all that sort of thing they are expected to do. Now that could be a point of criticism against me, that I would take in someone I considered to be a Christian, where if she was not, I may not have. I don't know.

right so you're really only in it to help other people just like you, how typical and how very christian a sentiment that is

do you really wonder why everyone in this thread thinks youre deluded ?

you picked up a stranger who needed medical help and put her in a position where she wouldn't receive it, you did nothing to help her position in life and actually worsened it by allowing her to be tempted into a crime which you set her up for.

thats why

way to go

 

[six7s]

I guess I should have my own thread, "Only nice things about Jesus". Of course that would be a one post thread, so not too exciting of a prospect.

Or... you could try thinking, critically before making ANY posts on ANY subforum on this site

 

[Ethnikos]

you picked up a stranger who needed medical help and put her in a position where she wouldn't receive it, you did nothing to help her position in life and actually worsened it by allowing her to be tempted into a crime which you set her up for.

way to go

She was obviously sick. Why do you think I brought her home?Look, the cops had just gotten done harassing her. They would have known she was sick, and they did not take her to the hospital. I guess if they found her lying in the street unable to get up, they would have been obligated to pick her up.
I kept track of her temperature and gave her the proper doses of analgesics and kept her in bed and gave her chicken soup and whatever you are supposed to do with sick people. I told her several times that she should let me take her to the hospital, so it was not like I was preventing her from getting proper care. The point I was trying to make is that if she had been exposed to the weather for another day, instead of being home, I do not think she would have survived. If you asked her now, she would say that is true, so it's not just my opinion.
I do not think I was a serious contributing factor to her thievery. She had done plenty of that on her own. Her best friend did end up dead (God rest her soul) from a form of stealing, which is owing the wrong sort of people money. The point is, that, very easily, could have been her. (meaning my room mate) What happened to me is minor in terms of what these people were capable of.
A position in life is exactly what she got. A swarmy street person at the point of starvation and about out of her mind is not very attractive. She was able to have a degree of status where she could look nice and was able to attract a boyfriend and get married. I don't have to worry about her, wondering if she is dead in an alley or something.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Sadly, Ethnikos, I've only read the last 2-3 posts of yours in this thread...and your posts reveal that you don't even come close to being christ-like. Rather, they smack of delusions of aristocracy and elitism. It's like living in Abilene, TX all over again. You think that because of your faith you are so much better than everyone else - holier than thou, if you will. Surely, you will have a hard time fitting through the eye of a needle.

 

[Marduk]

She was obviously sick. Why do you think I brought her home.

obviously so that you could take advantage of her in your special christian way, now I don't want you to take that the wrong way, but if you go and check with some rational people you will find that you don't take sick people home, you take them to the hospital or you call them an ambulance.

Also your claim doesn't make sense I suspect that you have heavily edited the story to make yourself look better, you claimed earlier that you took her home because she was a christian and that she didn't know that you were "weak with religion" when you picked her up, yet you stated that you only took her home because she was a christian, so either you had a brief discussion when you picked her up about faith or you knew she was a christian because she had "I am a christian" tattooed to her forehead.

so clearly this is the only reason you took her home, so you could boast in church how more christian you were than everyone else by taking in a christian in distress. Thats pride my man, and your pride by your own bronze age standards is going to take you straight to hell, or didn't you know
Pride is considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, it was first demonstrated by Satan and most recently demonstrated by you



you know what I find the most ironic though, when I've finished editing this post I have to click a button marked "save"

 

[Ethnikos]

. . .you don't take sick people home, you take them to the hospital or you call them an ambulance.

. . .you stated that you only took her home because she was a christian, so either you had a brief discussion when you picked her up about faith or you knew she was a christian because she had "I am a christian" tattooed to her forehead.

so clearly this is the only reason you took her home, so you could boast in church how more christian you were than everyone else by taking in a christian in distress.

Thank you for saving.
I meant I don't know what I might have done if she was not a Christian.
I took her home because she asked me to. I felt motivated to actually do it because I felt she was in serious need. I did have a discussion with her about what she wanted to do with her life, that was probably a little brutal, when we got home. Religion was brought up. I would not go about it like that if I was hypothetically in the same sort of situation again. It's like waterboarding, people are going to say whatever you want to hear.
This is not something I would bring up in church, even though it would have been appropriate for the discussion. There are some people in my discussion group who run a mission for homeless people so the topic comes up. Someone will say, "Would you take in a homeless person?" as if it was a challenge. I just sit there and don't say anything. I have had plenty of different people stay at my house and had three people living there at one time. It's not something I need to bring up. I do mention to people that my current room mate lives with me because he actually goes to church with me, but I don't say he would be homeless without me. That's not really necessary.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Thank you for saving.
I meant I don't know what I might have done if she was not a Christian.
I took her home because she asked me to. I felt motivated to actually do it because I felt she was in serious need. I did have a discussion with her about what she wanted to do with her life, that was probably a little brutal, when we got home. Religion was brought up. I would not go about it like that if I was hypothetically in the same sort of situation again. It's like waterboarding, people are going to say whatever you want to hear.
This is not something I would bring up in church, even though it would have been appropriate for the discussion. There are some people in my discussion group who run a mission for homeless people so the topic comes up. Someone will say, "Would you take in a homeless person?" as if it was a challenge. I just sit there and don't say anything. I have had plenty of different people stay at my house and had three people living there at one time. It's not something I need to bring up. I do mention to people that my current room mate lives with me because he actually goes to church with me, but I don't say he would be homeless without me. That's not really necessary.

Regardless, you've admitted that your interest in "helping" her was due to her being christian. I would ask what you would have done if she wasn't, but you've already stated that you "don't know." (Which I think we can safely assume means you wouldn't have "helped" in quite the same way).

You wouldn't brag about it at church, in your weekly bible study, etc., yet you'll come online to the JREF forums and brag about it here, to non-believers? So even if we take you at your word (which, I'm sorry to say, isn't terribly credible right now), you've still "helped" your friend for the wrong reasons. Keeping the deed to yourself and then wallowing in the smugness it brings you is still pride, and thus I direct you to reference Marduk's last post concerning the follies of pride.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Regardless, you've admitted that your interest in "helping" her was due to her being christian. I would ask what you would have done if she wasn't, but you've already stated that you "don't know." (Which I think we can safely assume means you wouldn't have "helped" in quite the same way).

You wouldn't brag about it at church, in your weekly bible study, etc., yet you'll come online to the JREF forums and brag about it here, to non-believers? So even if we take you at your word (which, I'm sorry to say, isn't terribly credible right now), you've still "helped" your friend for the wrong reasons. Keeping the deed to yourself and then wallowing in the smugness it brings you is still pride, and thus I direct you to reference Marduk's last post concerning the follies of pride.

Oh please, you guys just like to harass Christians when they show concern and try to help someone in need, Pride has nothing to do with it.

Tell me would you badger someone if they shared this story with you of a good deed they tried to do for someone if they weren't a Christian?

 

[Hokulele]

Oh please, you guys just like to harass Christians when they show concern and try to help someone in need, Pride has nothing to do with it.

Tell me would you badger someone if they shared this story with you of a good deed they tried to do for someone if they weren't a Christian?

Then why does Ethnikos admit he doesn't know what he would do if the person in need wasn't Christian? Why does the person in need have to be Christian in order to deserve the aid?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Oh please, you guys just like to harass Christians when they show concern and try to help someone in need, Pride has nothing to do with it.

Tell me would you badger someone if they shared this story with you of a good deed they tried to do for someone if they weren't a Christian?

That's not exactly a fair question to ask. Here's why: my reaction has nothing to do with what faith Ethnikos claims to have. My reaction is based purely on the following observations:

1) Ethnikos didn't take this sick girl to the hospital or a doctor
2) Ethnikos expresses that he really only helped her b/c she claimed she also believed in his brand of woo
3) Given that the brand of woo to which she belongs even was a point of discussion, there is reason to believe Ethnikos was likely not helping her simply out of the goodness of his heart. For him, this was perhaps a means to proselytize to a "godless heathen" (whether it be the girl he "helped," or the members of this board, or the members of his church, etc) or perhaps a self-righteous pick-me-up.
4) Because of his particular brand of woo, Ethnikos has used this good deed to further his self-pride. And while, unlike the devout christian belief, I do not believe pride in moderation is a sin, I do believe there is a large helping of smugness/elitism in Ethnikos' attitude towards his good deed.


Now, were I approached by someone claiming to have helped another human being under the same, or eerily similar circumstances (perhaps of a different brand of woo), I would have the same reaction (badgeryism, if you will).

There are millions of people in the world who help others simply out of the kindness of their heart - not because of religion (neither the chance to spread it, nor to brag about it), not because they can feel self-righteous amongst other believers of their brand of woo. Just because they are good people.