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The supernatural

For the article Supernatural

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Please review and research the content fairly and wisely and then make a correct judgment.

That is what we are doing, and you are very obviously not doing. You are twisting and misinterpreting what you read in a doomed attempt to justify believing things which you desperately want to believe, but which are simply not true. There is no science in the Qu'ran. None. No-one not indoctrinated with absurd religious beliefs would ever see what you imagine you see in it.
 
Please review and research the content fairly and wisely and then make a correct judgment. Please ...


The correct judgment is that almost everything you said about Darwin is nonsense, and pretty much everything you say about science in the Quran is blatant retrofitting, unsupported by the actual text.
 
OK, there is a great deal to say about what you have claimed above. But first I want to say that I am not going spend any time going through each verse, because really what you have done is just claim the exact same changes for every verse. But - the very first such translation from the very first Google search (i.e. found in less than 2 seconds) says this for your very first sentence - https://legacy.quran.com/32/7 Sahih International 32:7
"Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay."


OK, so what you have done is changed the word “from”, and replaced it with “in”. Or to be more specific – you are copying the Islamic fundamentalist Ijaz preachers who started to make changes like that in the 1970's (or possibly earlier). That is – this idea of changing the words has not come from you … it was already being done by certain Islamic fundamentalist fanatics before you were even born! So you are just believing them and copying them.

But the essential and crucial question is – when did these fundamentalist Ijaz preachers start to change the words like that? Was it before or only AFTER Darwin told the world about evolution in 1859?

I suspect that all of these examples claiming modern science revealed in the Quran, only began to appear AFTER the scientific discoveries had been published, i.e. after everyone had already heard about it.

In other words, if we take evolution as our example – what the Ijaz fundamentalists are doing (and what you Heydarian are believing and copying from them), is that before Darwin told us all about evolution, none of those Islamic writers were saying that the words needed to be changed from “created Man from mud and clay” to change it to “made Man and started all life IN wet mud & clay” … they only started to make such changes when by about the 1950's to 1970's it had become clear even to Islam that they could no longer keep denying evolution or any other part of science, so they started to say that the words should be changed from saying that Allah had begun by creating a whole Man out of wet mud-clay, and changed that to claiming that the Quran should be re-interpreted and changed so that it said Allah had started living things IN some wet muddy clay!

The reason why they did that (obviously) is to avoid the fact that every discovery in modern science kept showing that the words, claims & beliefs of the Quran were certainly wrong/untrue. So in the 1970's with a book by a man named Maurice Bucaille (if I remeber his name correctly, and who I have mentioned here before several times), Islamic fundamentalists started to use a new approach called “Ijaz”, whereby they simply claimed the authority to “re-interpret” hundreds of passages of the Quran so that they sounded more as if they were talking about discoveries from modern science ...even so, not a single one of those re-interpreted sentences sounds much at all like modern-science, but at least some of it sounded like it might be a sort-of very vague cryptic mystical description that could be imagined by the faithful believers to be a bit like what has actually been discovered by 20th and 21st century science …

… that's what the Ijaz fundamentalists have been doing since at least that book of the 1970's. And that is what Heydarian has been doing all throughout his every post in this thread, i.e. just repeating and copying what is said in all of that Islamic Ijaz writing.

But apart from the fact that this Ijaz approach is a very obvious attempted fraud from it's very start, it is also so utterly incompetent and scientifically ignorant that it's claims do not work anyway.

For example Heydarian, you have your first sentence above, saying that “Allah created Man in the mud” … but that is NOT what science and evolution says. Humans were not created in any Mud! However, more than that – in science it is far from clear or agreed that the first organisms that could be classified as possibly or probably “living”, formed in any wet clay or mud. On the contrary, one of the more popular scientific models describes how life on Earth may have started deep under the seas in things called “hydrothermal vents”. And on top of that, it also remains possible that the first living organisms may even have been brought to this planet in meteorites, i.e. not having occurred naturally on earth at all. So it's far from clear or settled that life originally began in any wet clay/mud.

Even worse than that – AFAIK, evolution involves certain aspects of random chance such that if nature had taken a slightly different course around 5 to 10 million years ago, our very earliest and most distant ape relatives may never have taken that path of evolving towards humans. That is – evolution may never have progressed beyond the stage of our most primitive small related apes … or in other words – it's partly by accident or random chance that the course of mammalian evolution has ended up producing Homo Sapiens.

Of course what might be an even more obvious explanation for Heydarain and other unscientific theists who's beliefs seemingly cannot progress beyond religious superstitions of the 1st to 7th century, is that if any almighty God actually existed and actually wanted to create humans, then he could have just instantly created them by one his enormous list of unexplained but claimed “Miracles” … no superhuman God such as that described in the Quran (or the Bible) would need to create humans by starting 13.8 billion years ago with the Big Bang, and then hoping that 9 billion years later a planet we now call Earth would form somewhere amongst a trillion, trillion …. trillion other planets, stars and galaxies, and that on this one particular planet after about a further billion years the most primitive living cells would somehow form (how is not explained in the Quran) and would then take a further 3.5 billion years before almost entirely by chance and sheer luck some animals called homo sapiens eventually appeared.

Description of your highlights:
In Surah Sajdah, the most accurate verses for the evolution of life and single-celled eukaryotes are given from verses 7 to 11. In the seventh verse, he says: The beginning of man's creation was in mud.Not that man was created in mud. No
Notice God says, "The beginning of the creation of man was in the mud." In fact, eukaryotes were created and developed in mud. And after 1 billion years of evolution, early humans, who were apes, were created. This is the complete process of life evolution. Which is partly related to the creation of man. All living things are derived from bacteria and ... primitive plants and ... primitive animals and ... from this primitive eukaryote....
And then eukaryotes continue to evolve in low water. After cell evolution (cell membrane - nucleus - formation of RNA and then DNA) which God expresses with the word "then evil". After completing the evolution of this non-living and completely scientific creature (according to the science of abiogenesis), it revives it with its command which is "soul". Science still cannot understand how non-living matter came to life after evolution! And it is one of the great mysteries of the universe. God says I commanded and he was resurrected. You disbelievers in understanding this matter. And you deny it for no compelling reason.
This process is completely scientific. And it is said in the Qur'an. This is not difficult to understand. Denying the scientific content of the Qur'an is only because of your prejudice and stubbornness. Otherwise, you have no scientific or philosophical evidence to deny the Qur'an.
Acceptance of these Qur'anic contents is optional. There is no compulsion. But you can not deny a single word of the Qur'an. I hope you understand.
 
The correct judgment is that almost everything you said about Darwin is nonsense, and pretty much everything you say about science in the Quran is blatant retrofitting, unsupported by the actual text.

Hello
You have no specialization in the Qur'an. Please, if you want to vote on the Qur'anic contents, first read and understand the Qur'an correctly and then judge it.
Thanks
 
That is what we are doing, and you are very obviously not doing. You are twisting and misinterpreting what you read in a doomed attempt to justify believing things which you desperately want to believe, but which are simply not true. There is no science in the Qu'ran. None. No-one not indoctrinated with absurd religious beliefs would ever see what you imagine you see in it.

Hello dear Pixel
I'm sorry
 
Your judgment of "God" and "the Qur'an" is not supported by science. And not philosophy and reason.
I'm really sorry for you

You just described yourself. And yes, I do feel sorry for you. But not very sorry, because your ignorance is willful. You could easily educate yourself about what science actually tells us about the extraordinary universe we live in. But you choose not to.
 
Description of your highlights:
In Surah Sajdah, the most accurate verses for the evolution of life and single-celled eukaryotes are given from verses 7 to 11. In the seventh verse, he says: The beginning of man's creation was in mud.Not that man was created in mud. No
Notice God says, "The beginning of the creation of man was in the mud." In fact, eukaryotes were created and developed in mud. And after 1 billion years of evolution, early humans, who were apes, were created. This is the complete process of life evolution. Which is partly related to the creation of man. All living things are derived from bacteria and ... primitive plants and ... primitive animals and ... from this primitive eukaryote....
And then eukaryotes continue to evolve in low water. After cell evolution (cell membrane - nucleus - formation of RNA and then DNA) which God expresses with the word "then evil". After completing the evolution of this non-living and completely scientific creature (according to the science of abiogenesis), it revives it with its command which is "soul". Science still cannot understand how non-living matter came to life after evolution! And it is one of the great mysteries of the universe. God says I commanded and he was resurrected. You disbelievers in understanding this matter. And you deny it for no compelling reason.
This process is completely scientific. And it is said in the Qur'an. This is not difficult to understand. Denying the scientific content of the Qur'an is only because of your prejudice and stubbornness. Otherwise, you have no scientific or philosophical evidence to deny the Qur'an.
Acceptance of these Qur'anic contents is optional. There is no compulsion. But you can not deny a single word of the Qur'an. I hope you understand.



No. In the words that you like to use “All of your claims are rejected” … “all that you have said is untrue, and proved … and it cannot be denied” ... "Your posts are all false and useless fraud".

Here is a link with a short extract of it's quote describing what you claimed to be essential as verses 7 to 11 -


https://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=7&verse=11&to=18

Islamicstudies.info
Tafheem.net*
Towards Understanding the Quran
With kind permission:*Islamic Foundation UK
Introduction to Tafheem*|*Glossary*|*Verbs

Other resources:*Maarif*|*Dawat*

*Surah Al-A'raf 7:11-18*[2/24]*↕


Recite
*|
وَلَقَدۡ خَلَقۡنٰكُمۡ ثُمَّ صَوَّرۡنٰكُمۡ ثُمَّ قُلۡنَا لِلۡمَلٰۤـئِكَةِ اسۡجُدُوۡا لِاٰدَمَ​ ۖ  فَسَجَدُوۡۤا اِلَّاۤ اِبۡلِيۡسَؕ لَمۡ يَكُنۡ مِّنَ السّٰجِدِيۡنَ‏ *

*
Recent Verses:
7:11-18


(7:11) We initiated your creation, then We gave you each a shape, and then We said to the angels: 'Prostrate before Adam.')*10*They all prostrated except Iblis: he was not one of those who fell Prostrate.
10. These verses should he read in conjunction with (al-Baqarah 2: 30-9). The words in which the command to prostrate before Adam is mentioned may give rise to the misapprehension that it was Adam as such who is the object of prostration. This misapprehension should be removed by what has been said here. The text makes it very clear that prostration before Adam was in his capacity, as the representative of all mankind and not in his personal capacity.

The successive stages of man's creation mentioned in the present verse ('We initiated your creation, then We gave you each a shape'), means that God first planned the creation of man, made ready the necessary materials for it, and then gave those materials a human form. Then, when man had assumed the status of a living being, God asked the angels to prostrate before him. The Qur'an says: And recall when your Lord said to the angels: 'I am about to create man from clay. When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit then fall You down in prostration before him' (Sad 38: 71-2).

Mention has been made in these verses, though in a difterent way, of the same three stages of creation: man's creation from clay; giving him a proportionate human shape; and bringing Adam into existence by breathing into him God's spirit. The following verses also have the same import:

And recall when your Lord said to the angels: 'I am about to create man, from sounding clay moulded into shape from black mud. When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall you all down in prostration before him' (al-Hijr 15: 28-9).



The above says exactly everything that I have pointed out to you. It says exactly what all Islamic scholars had always said before the 1970's sudden idea of claiming “Ijaz” occurred to certain Islamic fundamentalists …

… it makes absolutely clear that the words of the Quran declare that Allah himself says that he directly formed the first Humans from wet clay, and that he formed the humans whole and complete … there is no abiogenesis or anything remotely like that described in the Quran.

And by the way, I don't think you responded to or acknowledged the fact that as I pointed out in a post just a page back – the belief that Mankind was created out of “mud” or “clay” was already claimed in dozens of religions hundreds and thousands of years before the Quran or any Islam ever existed …

… that means without doubt that the Quran and it's writers simply copied their creation story from what had been believed in all those earlier religions (they all believed that their god had created the first humans by forming a whole human to a full shape in wet moulding clay!). The Quran is simply a copy of those previous religions.

And by the way my previous long post already explained that all which you have said from your Quran about abiogenesis, is completely wrong as far modern science knows. You simply have no understanding of what has been said in science about possible models of abiogenesis (such as deep sea hydrothermal vents).

And also - I dont think you responded to or explained or answered that crucial question of whether you and your fellow Ijaz believers began claiming science in the Quaran, before or only AFTER the science had all been published so that everyone then knew about it?

I'm going to repeat that as a set of specfic questions which you must answer ("must" because otherwise all of your claims here are dead & buried as nothing more that the usual ignorant religious Islamic miracle ranting) -

1. why does the Quran repeat the same story as religions from thousands of years earlier which also believed that Man was created whole from wet clay/mud?

2. at what date did any Islamic Ijaz believers first say Man had occured through a process of evolution ... please produce books or papers showing that they were saying this before Darwin told everyone in 1859.

3. same as question 2 but for all of the science you have claimed to be hidden in the Quran - please produce Islamic books or papers where any scientific claim made by Muslim writers was published BEFORE the science was all well known ... eg produce Islamic books or papers describing relativity BEFORE the work of Einstein was published between 1905 to 1915.
 
Hello
You have no specialization in the Qur'an. Please, if you want to vote on the Qur'anic contents, first read and understand the Qur'an correctly and then judge it.
Thanks


I’m not relying on the Quran itself, I’m looking at your own twistings of it, as posted above. Your post hoc attempt to make your own interpretations of the Quran fit scientific findings that are blatant retrofitting.
 
Hello
You have no specialization in the Qur'an. Please, if you want to vote on the Qur'anic contents, first read and understand the Qur'an correctly and then judge it.
Thanks


We do not need to specialize in any reading of the ancient script of the Quran, or lean to be conversant in any form of Arabic. Because prior to the aforementioned Mr Maurice Bucaille writing a book of his ijaz beliefs in the 1970's, all Islamic scholars and experts on the Quran agreed on what the sentences of the Quran said about creation of Man and what all the sentences said about anything else. And all of that has been translated into English and debated millions of times … and it's all understood by everyone … and until Maurice Bucaille popped up with his ijaz beliefs, there was never any doubt or dispute about what the Quran said …

… all that has happened is that Bucaille and others have since claimed that they can prove God if they change all sorts of words in the Quran, so that by doing that they can find what they believe are all sorts of miraculous revelations about modern science. Which is EXACTLY what you have been claiming in every post here – they were doing it before you we even born! … so you are certainly getting your beliefs entirely by copying them ... and that is called "Ijaz".

The link below shows what Bucaille was claiming -


https://sites.hampshire.edu/scienceandislamvideoportal/video/the-quran-modern-science/

The Qur’an & Modern Science

Maurice Bucaille
Maurice Bucaille presents material here that is largely drawn from the section on the Qurʾān in his*The Bible, the Quran and Science.* The focus of the talk is to prove*the existence of God through the Qurʾān, by showing it represents scientific facts that could not be known in the seventh century, a form of*i’jaz.

At one point, Bucaille notes that humans are not formed from a blood clot (as stated in the Qurʾān, min 42:30), but later he also says that none of the verses of the Qurʾān are refuted by modern science (min 52:00).
The material covered includes: *the expansion of the universe, the movements of the sun and moon, the light from the sun and moon, mountains and tectonic plates, water cycles in nature, the origin of life in water, gender in plants, human reproduction and the growth of embryos, evolution (min 35:20).

Video by Aziz R. Khan.
Place:**Islamic Foundation, Villa Park, Illinois (USA) *The date of the lecture is unknown, but is perhaps 1987, based on the reference in*this web site.



What you can see in the above summary of that link (which is an Islamic site/link), is that Bucaille was claiming EXACTLY all the things that you have since claimed here … and he did that before you were born. So that is absolute proof that you are just copying fanatical nutty ijaz islamists like Mr Bucaille.

A bit more about Maurice Bucaille -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Bucaille
 
I think that educated Muslims are being extremely selfish in respect of not sharing information that would help all of mankind. Everything is written down in the Quran for those who can understand it, but yet not even a hint on how scientists elsewhere can crack the nuclear fusion issue or bridge the quantum/relativistic divide or gain more insights into dark matter or crack FTL propulsion. Pretty poor show, I reckon.
 
I think that educated Muslims are being extremely selfish in respect of not sharing information that would help all of mankind. Everything is written down in the Quran for those who can understand it, but yet not even a hint on how scientists elsewhere can crack the nuclear fusion issue or bridge the quantum/relativistic divide or gain more insights into dark matter or crack FTL propulsion. Pretty poor show, I reckon.


You miss the whole point of it. It's like Wakanda. They choose to keep their Mo-powered futuristic tech safely hidden from the godless infidel world. They pretend to be a bunch of stupid ignorant cross-eyed superstitious fools, all the while smiling quietly at the folly of the world that is ignorant of the wonders of the Mo-Tech that is wielded in secret by those who worship Allah the Bountiful.


eta: As a wise man once said, "I'm truly sorry for you."
 
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Hello
You have a beautiful laugh. You are beautiful too. We are worried about your language.
No. I do not want to change the word of God.
This is a great sin. And its ruling is takfir. I just want to study modern science in the Qur'an. And to interpret and interpret the Qur'an up to date. This is a valuable work. And it is not against the word of God. And God loves it. The Qur'an must come out of scientific abandonment.
Thanks

I have only one question to ask, "How do you know you are right?"
 
Description of your highlights:
In Surah Sajdah, the most accurate verses for the evolution of life and single-celled eukaryotes are given from verses 7 to 11. In the seventh verse, he says: The beginning of man's creation was in mud.Not that man was created in mud. No
Notice God says, "The beginning of the creation of man was in the mud."


Looking at the above response from Heydarian, I of course had never heard of Surah Sajdah (I'm not interested in fundememtalist Islamic preaching sites), so I did not know what that was supposed to be other than the fact that Heyadarian is claiming verse 7 there as his worshipped source from which he gets that highlight saying “created IN mud” (and not saying “created FROM Mud”.

So as always I did a 2 second Google seach for Surah Sajdah and what it says in that verse 7, and here is the Islamic preaching site that immediately came up -

https://myislam.org/surah-as-sajdah/ayat-7/

SURAH AS-SAJDAH AYAT 7 (32:7 QURAN) WITH TAFSIR


SURAH SAJDAH AYAT 7 IN ARABIC TEXT

ٱلَّذِىٓ*أَحْسَنَ*كُلَّ*شَىْءٍ*خَلَقَهُۥ ۖ*وَبَدَأَ*خَلْقَ*ٱلْإِنسَـٰنِ*مِن*طِينٍۢ

Allazee ahsana kulla shai in khalaqa; wa bada a khalqal insaani min teen
ENGLISH TRANSLATION
Here you can read various translations of verse 7

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

YUSUF ALI
He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,

ABUL ALA MAUDUDI
He Who excelled in the creation of all that He created. He originated the creation of man from clay,

MUHSIN KHAN
Who made everything He has created good, and He began the creation of man from clay.

PICKTHALL
Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;

DR. GHALI
Who perfected in the fairest (shape) everything He created; and He began the creation of man of clay.

ABDEL HALEEM
who gave everything its perfect form. He first created man from clay,



The other thing that quickly became obvious, is that if you look for Surah Sajdah 7 on YouTube, you find that the place is drowning in lunatic Islamists ranting about God creating Man, although the one I looked at for a whole 5 seconds also immediately said that the verse says created “FROM” mud, and not “IN” Mud … I did not of course waste any more of time looking what other Islamic preaching nutcases said. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
The quran says the sun orbits the earth, therefore it is not from God.

when the quran says, at sura 21.33 and 36.40 and 36.38 that the sun has an orbit, Imams falsely claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the flat earth and is reset every dawn , and I can prove it with the following hadith.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. The hadith is clearly saying the sun orbits the earth, and it is a fuller explanation of verse 36.38 in the quran.
 
This is not difficult to understand.
"All living things on Earth are made of the first evolved single-celled eukaryote."I hope you understand. it's not hard.

That is very likely true. But, what has this to do with your religion? It certainly doesn't say so in any of the holy books.

Hans
 
That is very likely true. But, what has this to do with your religion? It certainly doesn't say so in any of the holy books.

Hans

Many years ago, I came across something called the Bible Code, which purports to be a method to find secret messages in the Torah. Maybe, if you apply this method to the Quran... :cool:


Just to clarify things, I agree that it's a pile of cack.

I came across it in a book on codes and ciphers, in which the author dismantled it quite effectively, including using the method to find secret messages in, iirc, Moby Dick!



ETA: a link
 
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