The supernatural

[Mojo]

Scientific prediction does not require objective evidence.

It does if you want to claim that the predictions were accurate. If you can’t provide the evidence to back up your claims you have nothing but groundless bluster.

 

[IanS]

Hello
In 16 messages and 27 verses of the Qur'an, I examined the subject of "Darwin's evolution from the perspective of the Qur'an." And I put it in the group to study. Please refer to the messages. More than that, we need to discuss this issue in another situation or group.

It is not "Darwin's evolution". Darwin does not own it! It is not just something that Darwin believed in 150 years ago! Evolution has been shown to be true from everything ever investigated in all of science! Humans evolved from earlier apes (and humans are a species of ape), and that is as close to a certain fact as anything known to Man.

But you are a deluded liar again when you claim that animal & human evolution is explained in the Quran. It most certainly is NOT in the Quran. And frankly it's just a repeated lie when you keep repeating that it is there in the Quran.

But your position here was already destroyed by you yourself when you just told us on this very page that you claim that the Quran literally proves God so that no amount of evidence to the contrary could ever change your mind … you have no interest in what honestly is genuine evidence … your only interest is to preach your belief in God and the Quran; and that is nothing more than merely a religious faith-belief (in contradiction with all known evidence from science).

 

[Pixel42]

Everything in the universe is eyewitness to the claims of the Qur'an.

No, it isn't.

But even if we consider the claims of the Qur'an as just a prediction. We see that the prophecies of the Qur'an come true.

No, they don't. No more than is easily explained by chance and intelligent guesswork, anyway.

And there are many scientific discoveries in the prophecies of the Qur'an.

No, there aren't.

And has been proven.

No, it hasn't.

This is what I told you in this group. what is your opinion?

My opinion is that you have fooled yourself into thinking that claims which you have brainwashed into believing from birth, and which are manifestly untrue, can be supported using arguments and "evidence" which are not remotely convincing to anyone who has not been similarly brainwashed.

 

[catsmate]

I also find the idea that god, if he existed, would only communicate in Arabic to be ludicrous.
That is just pure Arabisation of Islam, in much the same way that all Muslim names must be Arab names, "proper" Muslim clothes are Arab clothes, and the prayers are conducted only in Arabic. This is the Arabs establishing ownership of Islam, to ensure religious power, prestige and influence in the world.
(I asked my Turkish students if they spoke any Arabic. None of them did. They went to prayers every day, and didn't understand a single word of it. Ridiculous).
However, in the spirit of the challenge, I hereby present Nizar Qabbani, a modern Syrian poet. Even in translation, his poems are superb- nuanced, complex and emotive. Far better than the blunt threats, vicious sentiments and endless repetition of the Quran and written, to my knowledge, without any claim of divine inspiration.
Enjoy.
https://glli-us.org/2018/02/20/arabian-love-poems-full-arabic-and-english-texts/

Similar to Latin in Catholicism until Vatican 2.

 

[IanS]

Hello
We have a few verses in the Qur'an that say: All beings in the universe (living and inanimate) are conscious. And they know their God. And they worship God. This is completely scientific. Professor Suarez proved this scientifically by experimenting with photons. As you know: Photons are the smallest structural particle in the universe. I have left this to you with full explanation in the 1998 and 1999 messages. Please refer. I also said in message 2279 that: Penrose, who is Hawking's master, proved teleportation. And scientifically proven. Teleportation is mentioned in 4 verses in the Quran. And in the revelation of the Holy Bible verse 5 is mentioned. The resurrection of Jesus was by teleportation. And it is explained that all human beings will be recreated in the same way teleportation.
And they enter the new Jerusalem (heavenly and beautiful) with a new earth and a new heaven.

But your main answer is: Hawking-Penrose-Suarez did not say at all that their discoveries are in the Qur'an. Or God has said. No. They did not say. And they do not need to say that. I am a Muslim Quran researcher. I have checked. And I have seen that in the verses of the Qur'an, which God said in the seventh century, all these discoveries are mentioned. This is the claim of the Qur'an. And it is true. And I have examined this matter in the Qur'an. And I have found. The scientific contents of the Qur'an should be studied and found by a Qur'anic researcher. This is not the job of scientists. it is my duty. I love the Quran. And the Qur'an tells me: Yes, I have all this scientific material. You check and find it. I do this with all my love for the Qur'an.
All this scientific material in the Qur'an is pure truth. There are no lies. We humans lie. The Quran is pure. We do not understand it. Open your eyes well, read the Qur'an and see that all the knowledge of the day is in the Qur'an. Of course, with the names and sentences that were said in the seventh century. If we want to understand, we have to decrypt. Of course, deciphering the Qur'an is very simple and easy. I have told you many examples in this group. I repeat again. "I swear when the star is born" means that White holes exist in space. "I swear by the time of the destruction and fall of the star" means that wormholes and black holes exist in space. It is very simple and understandable. A strong barrier of prejudice will not let you understand. There is no need to understand this. Everyone understands the winner. And whoever does not understand will not get anywhere.

Afaik, Penrose has certainly not "proved teleportation" ... don't just make claims like that! You need to produce the reference to the actual paper and you need to quote precisely the sentence where Penrose made any such claim'

As for this person Suarez - I have no idea who he is? Who is he? And he certainly has not "proved that photons are conscious"! Don't just make claims like that! ... you MUST produce the published paper and quote from it exactly what Suarez said. ...


... where is this paper from Suarez?

... where is this paper from Penrose?


And you have again made vast claims about all of this science being in the Quran ... but in all the hundreds of pages here, you have never been able to quote even one sentence from the Quran that describes anything in modern 21st century science ... nothing at all ... Zero!

But again – you yourself have just destroyed your own position here by admitting that real evidence is irrelevent to you (because you regard the Quran as it's own proof of a supernatural God).

That makes you a person who has no interest in actual education. You cannot learn anything because you cannot accept the evidence when it so clearly disagrees with you!

 

[malbui]

As for this person Suarez - I have no idea who he is? Who is he? And he certainly has not "proved that photons are conscious"! Don't just make claims like that! ... you MUST produce the published paper and quote from it exactly what Suarez said. ...

I queried this particularly pernicious piece of bollocks the last time it came up. Don't hold your breath waiting for the academic reference.

 

[IanS]

Hello
You said in your previous message: My answers are not enough. I completely agree with you. I do not understand more than this. And my knowledge is limited. I answer as much as I know. Of course, as you say, it is not enough. You are right. In this message, you raised another fact. Here, too, you are absolutely right. I know that they accept only with objective evidence. And they only know the objective evidence and the laboratory and nothing else. Well, the Quran does not have a laboratory. His objective evidence to prove his claims is the universe. Everything in the universe is eyewitness to the claims of the Qur'an. I accept this claim and content from the Qur'an. But you do not have to. That's why you deny it. you are right. There is no objective evidence of the Qur'an in the laboratory. Not with valid scientific evidence that the world of science knows.

There is no such thing as "the world of science". Science does not take place in some other world outside of the human race on Earth.

Science is the way that Mankind eventually found as the only known way of reliably discovering and explaining what is actually true vs untrue in this universe.

Everything is subject to and open to scientific investigation to see if peoples claims are really true, or if they are merely claims made without reasonable evidence.

All the beliefs of your religion are open to be studied by science. And so far all scientific studies of claims made by you and all other religious people, have turned out to be far, FAR below the standard required by science.

But even if we consider the claims of the Qur'an as just a prediction. We see that the prophecies of the Qur'an come true. And there are many scientific discoveries in the prophecies of the Qur'an. And has been proven. This is what I told you in this group. what is your opinion? How good and beautiful you speak. I agree with you on many issues. We have a parable. That: the word that comes from the heart will surely sit in the heart. That is, we understand each other well. this is very good.
Thanks

The "prophecies of the Quran" do NOT come true (ie such as your claimed “prophecies” of modern-day scientific discovery … black holes, pulsars, relativity, quantum theory, evolution & especially human evolution, etc. etc.). You believe they have come true, because you are operating entirely by religious faith! If you apply science to your beliefs then you immediately find that no such prophecies of the Quran have ever come true at all!

 

[MRC_Hans]

You do not understand what I mean. Nothing in the Qur'an can be denied. There is no denying it. "These verses are about the seventh-century infidels." Are you a seventh-century infidel? If you are one of them or you think and act like them, these verses will apply to you. If you are not, then do not repeat this. Do not repeat your words about this.

Useful information: As long as they comply with the Membership Agreement, you have no right to decide what other members may or may not write. If you do think they violate the MA, report their post.

Otherwise, live with it.

Hans

 

[sackett]

So you're claiming that absolutely nothing could convince you that you're wrong?

More like proudly declaring.

While glancing around uneasily. Let's keep in mind that heydarian is typing from Iran, a religious dictatorship where people can be accused of heresy or blasphemy exactly as in medieval times. Somewhere up above on this long, arid journey he said, and repeated, "There is no heresy." He sounded a bit urgent about it. Probably for a good reason.

In theocracies, accusation is automatically conviction.

 

[Chanakya]

You do not understand what I mean. Nothing in the Qur'an can be denied. There is no denying it. "These verses are about the seventh-century infidels." Are you a seventh-century infidel? If you are one of them or you think and act like them, these verses will apply to you. If you are not, then do not repeat this. Do not repeat your words about this.

I agree, heydarian. Clearly the words in the Quran about infidels applies to the infidels in the seventh century. The Quran does not say anything about infidels in this modern age. Scorpion is a fool to think what he does, and he must stop doing that right away. Happy?

----

But, by that same logic of yours: Clearly the words in the Quran about the faithful applies to the faithful in the seventh century. The Quran does not say anything about the faithful in this modern age. Therefore, heydarian, you are a fool to imagine that the Quran says anything to you and about you, and you are fool to lead your life according to the Quran. Likewise, every observant Muslim is a blithering gibbering fool. Agreed?

I mean, fair's fair. If I grant you your crazy twisted logic when it comes to Scorpion, must you not, then, apply the same logic to yourself and your fellow Muslims?

----

You don't understand the first thing about science? Okay, accepted. You don't understand logical fallacies? Okay, accepted. But surely you cannot claim that you don't understand fair play and simple consistency, can you?

Do the right thing now, and accept that the Quran does not apply to the present world, and announce here in public that you were a fool to lead your life according to the Quran, and that henceforth you as well as your family will stop following the injunctions in the Quran, as they apply only to the faithful of the seventh century, and not to you. Do that, and Scorpion will recant what he's said in that post there, and indeed everything he's said about the Quran's views on infidels, and agree with you that what the Quran says about infidels applies only to infidels in the seventh century. (Or at least, since after all I don't speak for him: You do that, and I'll ask him to do what I've said here, and hopefully he'll comply.)

 

[IanS]

But even if we consider the claims of the Qur'an as just a prediction. We see that the prophecies of the Qur'an come true. And there are many scientific discoveries in the prophecies of the Qur'an. And has been proven. This is what I told you in this group.

It has been proved? OK, so please produce the claimed proof?

Where is the "proof"?

Do not produce yet more preaching from the Quran; because holy preaching not a proof.

Do not produce more of your own personal religious beliefs. Because your mere beliefs and your faith are not any kind of proof ...

... just produce the actual genuine proof please ... we are waiting - where is your proof please -

 

[sackett]

That's it?

Hello dear Philosopher
Thank you for your good guidance.
Thanks

You have no better response than that? Was it something I said?

Yes, it probably was. I used a big tough word, "analogy," right after flattering your English.

 

[abaddon]

Hello
These two continents are not mentioned in the Qur'an like many idioms and words in the present age. Because in the seventh century such terms did not exist. But for the existence of continents other than the earth and the lands on the earth are mentioned. It generally mentions unknown and undiscovered places such as the United States, which has been discovered for about 450 years. "Travel on earth and learn from everything" you see, which says travel on earth in general. That is, travel to any land or sea on land.
Ramadan is a lunar month. Naturally, its time in a day and month is different from the time in the Gregorian and solar months. That is, the times of the lunar months, such as Ramadan, are different everywhere on earth. And it is not the same as the times of the Gregorian and solar months. And astronomy has solved this time difference. At any point of the earth, the clock is announced separately according to the lunar or Gregorian and solar months. And there is no problem.

There have been people in the americas for at least 15,000 years, and in Australia for 40,000 years. Your "prophet" has his head in an unexpected location. How could he get that so wrong?

 

[heydarian saeed]

Hello to all of you.
I have had a free conversation with you in this group for a long time. I told you about the scientific matters mentioned in the Qur'an. Although the objective and laboratory evidence in the Qur'an is not what you expect. But the whole universe is a laboratory of the Qur'an. And all his predictions have been proven by dear scientists. We believe that scientific proof by scientists has been in accordance with the predictions of the Qur'an. Of course, these scientists themselves never say that. And they do not need to say it themselves. Scientific research in the Qur'an proves this. And I have given you many examples in this regard.
The Qur'an is an undeniable truth. But I have already told you about my beliefs.
Reminder of my previous messages:
If you were not even prejudiced, it might just be heard as a theory. Not more than this. I am ready to sacrifice my ideas. how about you? With logical and rational reasoning for me; Deny God - the Qur'an - Islam and Muhammad to accept. And I sacrifice all these ideas that I love. I'm serious. There is no pressure for me. I stand quite strong and steadfast. Please justify me.
To be like you. And if you can not stop these useless thoughts. God does not need any of us. Be sure. Keep busy with your life and your knowledge. And make progress in every field. This is a great approach. And God loves it. You can not deny his existence. Be sure.
But I did not see a convincing answer from you. I find you extremely weak in commenting on your ideas. Of course it is normal. Because your ideas are not logical. You have very little knowledge about this subject. Your willpower and confidence in this matter is very low.
Every time I left you something about the Qur'an and God and told you. I saw it you jumping like scattered locusts. And you have no union. I have seen that apart from this group, you are preparing to present in other groups. Each of you had a task. And you were notified. To do your mission.
I am just one person. I have no support other than God. But you could not defeat me. There are hundreds or maybe millions of you. And you all attacked me. And I stood like a mountain. I saw you hitting me many times and falling to the ground. it is normal ...
The scorpion had a special task. Your philosophers had another special task. Your public was a spectator. Or sometimes they hit a corner. Wise - Your most capable and smartest was dear Pixel. I like him as a scientific guide. I learned good things from him. It's different from all of you. Is different. Thanks to everyone who uploaded scientific or public sites to read and review me in this group.
During my time with you, I became stronger every day. And you did not understand. The more attackers there were. I became stronger. The more your criticism in various fields. I became stronger. I made the most of you. But I was not like you at all. But I saw and learned things from all of you that made me stronger. That's why I use the plural pronoun "We". And I say, "We.""Prejudice" is a very bad and ugly idea. I saw you all. And I learned never to be a fanatic. You mentioned "superstitions" in my religion. And I saw in all of you that you yourself accept superstitions. I learned not to be superstitious. I have revealed to you all the superstitions related to the Day of Judgment, Hell, Heaven, Punishment, Soul, Purgatory, the Purpose of Creation, and so on.
And I explained. And I told you clearly what is the reality of these issues? Other than this fact, the rest is all superstition. The scorpion bit a lot. But it all went wrong. And he did not achieve his goal. 72 virgins that you desire. It is pure superstition. Are there few beautiful women in the world? And they are very enjoyable.So why do you wish for a virgin in heaven? This is a mistake. I love my wife more than the whole world. And I will not exchange it for all heaven.I saw in you weakness and ignorance towards communication with other nations. And I learned not to be like you. I saw immorality such as ridicule, lying, slander, and ugly sarcasm. And I learned not to be like that. All of this was a lesson for me to become stronger. I stand like a mountain.
My beliefs in God - the Qur'an - Islam and Muhammad have increased more than ever in my life. I'm "Mount Everest". Not this Mount Everest that you see. My head is in the sky. You will never be able to climb my peak. All this I say in this message is my personal claim. And I stand at its feet.). I never worship God for fear of hell. I love God only because of His existence. No, I expect to go to heaven. And not afraid to go to hell. I am free. Whatever God wills, I am satisfied. I love God only for himself. And I worship him with pride.I never worship God for reaching heaven and the virgins of heaven (The Virgin of Heaven is a lie
... And I have a gift for you disbelievers. God will never forget you. Although you make a mistake and deny him. But he is God. Does not think like you. The Qur'an has revealed a special chapter for you in its book. In the name of Surah " Infidels ". See how logically he speaks to you. God's logic is "the freedom of the servant." And is a "servant Raising." And loves "all his servants." And has "no compulsion to worship." Just read. It is not your job to judge the Qur'an. And you are not in a position to judge. Just read:
I present to you Surah " Infidels " - 109 in the Quran. Translated by: Pickthall
1- (Muhammad), tell the disbelievers.
2- I worship not that which ye worship.
3- nor do you worship what I worship.
4- And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship.
5- Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6- Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

 

[Pixel42]

Your most capable and smartest was dear Pixel. I like him as a scientific guide. I learned good things from him.

Her.

And sadly you clearly learned nothing from me. Until you're willing to countenance the possibility that the beliefs you've been indoctrinated with from birth are mistaken you're unlikely to learn anything from anybody. But I don't regret trying.

Go in peace, heydarian.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Her.

And sadly you clearly learned nothing from me. Until you're willing to countenance the possibility that the beliefs you've been indoctrinated with from birth are mistaken you're unlikely to learn anything from anybody. But I don't regret trying.

Go in peace, heydarian.

Google Translator : him ... her...
I apologize to you dear lady. I'm interested in you and Queen Elizabeth II.
the eye.
Meet in singularity.

 

[IanS]

Hello to all of you.
I have had a free conversation with you in this group for a long time. I told you about the scientific matters mentioned in the Qur'an. Although the objective and laboratory evidence in the Qur'an is not what you expect. But the whole universe is a laboratory of the Qur'an. And all his predictions have been proven by dear scientists. We believe that scientific proof by scientists has been in accordance with the predictions of the Qur'an. Of course, these scientists themselves never say that. And they do not need to say it themselves. Scientific research in the Qur'an proves this. And I have given you many examples in this regard.

The above is not true though is it! Why do you not care about the truth in this world. You know very well that if scientists ever discovered evidence of God, then they would instantly publish that in every single paper.

You know very well that such evidence would be the most important discovery in the entire history on Mankind, and every scientist in the world would be publishing papers describing and explaining all of that evidence.

But the truth is that there are no scientists publishing any such evidence of God. None. That tells you more clearly than anything else ever could, that no such evidence of God has ever been found (and neither has any evidence of scientific descriptions in the Quran).

That's really the end of the story. Because it means there is no evidence for the claims you have been making.

You say you have given us many examples of science from the Quran. But what you have given us is your religious belief that entirely ordinary words in the Quran, actually mean things like Pulsars and Black Holes and Evolution. That is your belief. It is a religious belief. But mere belief is not evidence. And science shows conclusively that there is no such mention of any of those things in the Quran ... and that is an undeniable fact (ie the "fact" is that it's simply not there in any scientific papers at all).

The Qur'an is an undeniable truth. But I have already told you about my beliefs.
Reminder of my previous messages:
If you were not even prejudiced, it might just be heard as a theory. Not more than this. I am ready to sacrifice my ideas. how about you? With logical and rational reasoning for me; Deny God - the Qur'an - Islam and Muhammad to accept. And I sacrifice all these ideas that I love. I'm serious. There is no pressure for me. I stand quite strong and steadfast. Please justify me.
To be like you. And if you can not stop these useless thoughts. God does not need any of us. Be sure. Keep busy with your life and your knowledge. And make progress in every field. This is a great approach. And God loves it. You can not deny his existence. Be sure.

Well, obviously the Quran is not undeniable truth (as you again just claimed it to be). For example, as we have just discussed, science has never found any evidence to support your beliefs in God or your belief of science in the Quran. Science finds those claims that you make are completely untrue.

But you say you will change your mind if we show evidence that convinces you that you are wrong to believe in God and Quran. But you already just told us on the previous page that you will never change your mind no matter how much evidence shows that you are wrong.

So the truth is that you are NOT wiling ever to change your mind no matter how much unarguable evidence is presented to you ... the evidence from science on this is overwhelming, but even that is not good enough for you! So by your own definition and your own actions you are not willing to change your mind, and you are not willing to accept that it's a true unarguable fact that science shows that your beliefs are wrong.

But I did not see a convincing answer from you. I find you extremely weak in commenting on your ideas. Of course it is normal. Because your ideas are not logical. You have very little knowledge about this subject. Your willpower and confidence in this matter is very low.
Every time I left you something about the Qur'an and God and told you. I saw it you jumping like scattered locusts. And you have no union. I have seen that apart from this group, you are preparing to present in other groups. Each of you had a task. And you were notified. To do your mission.

The reason that you do not find our answers convincing is because you are not willing to hear the truth, and you actually told us that yourself! You are willing only to declare upon faith that the Quran must be true and that God must be real. But as I keep reminding you - all of the evidence from science is in complete disagreement with you ...

... do you really not find the science convincing? It's been studied in vastly greater depth that anything you have ever done ... and no evidence at all of your God has ever been found. Nothing at all.

The answers that we get from science have all been tested and confirmed by all other scientists everywhere around the world. The evidence is checked and re-checked literally thousands of times a day by hundreds of other labs with the world greatest experts using every method conceivable ... and the results are totally consistent, we get the same answers every time & we get the same mathematical "proofs" every time for why all those answers from science are correct. That's what allows us to do things like build spacecraft that really do fly to Mars and collect samples etc., that's what allows us to build computers which really work and which you and I use every day, that correctness of science is what allows us to discover and confirm human evolution ... that precision and truth of science is what has proved correct with literally 10-billion things like that ... and yet you are claiming that is not convincing to you, such that when science shows that there is zero evidence for your God beliefs, then you reject that result of science, and you further say that we have not explained that in a way that is convincing for you ...

... well, OK, then as you just told us yourself on the previous page - the reason why you do not find that convincing is simply because you refuse to hear the truth when it so obviously denies your belief of God and the Quran. You have a completely closed mind and you are unwilling to learn why you are wrong.

I'll stop there without reading the rest of your post, because it's a very long post and it would need equally long replies on each point. But the above is more than enough anyway.

 

[Scorpion]

Just read. It is not your job to judge the Qur'an. And you are not in a position to judge. Just read:

Try reading the following web site, you might actually learn something.

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/

 

[malbui]

Best part of 3,000 posts in and we’re back to a lengthy and incoherent rendering of ‘Jesus loves me this I know / For the bible tells me so’.

 

[Scorpion]

Heydarian, you have said there are no errors in the Quran, but the web site I just posted is full of them.


"He is created from a gushing fluid that issued from between the loins and ribs."
Semen, according to the Quran, is formed not in the testicles, but somewhere "between
the loins and ribs." 86:5-7

Allah created all animals. Some with no legs, some with two, and some with four. (Most animals have six legs. Did Allah forget about the insects?) 24:45

The Pharaoh threatens to crucify Hebrews on palm tress. (But crucifixion was a Roman form of punishment that was unknown at the time.) 20:71

"And thy Lord inspired the bee, saying ... eat of all fruits."
Allah told bees to eat from all fruits, but they decided to eat nectar and pollen instead. 16:68-68

That's just a few of the errors in the Quran, the skeptics annotated Quran has hundreds of them,.