The supernatural

[heydarian saeed]

How beautiful said dear Sohrab
I have to be careful today...
If I saw a dandelion...
Give my wishes to her to bring to God...
To God I Know...
Not the angry god they made for me...
Not the god of wrath they made for me...
Not the terrible god they made for me...
To God I Know...
To a god whose heart is like a butterfly...
And shows the way to migratory birds every year...
And she told the rain that the gardens were thirsty...
And her attention is even on the thin heart of the Flowers of stock...

(Sohrab Sepehri is a famous poet in white poetry. And is from Kashan)

 

[heydarian saeed]

What the Quran really says:

The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens (sura 2.29)
The Quran says the sun orbits the earth (sura 21.33 sura 36.40)
The Quran says the sun rests and is reset every dawn (sura 36.38)
The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years

Muslim Imams will say differently, but they are liars who must know this is what the Quran really says, however there would be no money in the mosques coffers, and the 50 or more Muslim country's would collapse.
Because to admit the above is what the quran really says would be to admit it is not the words of God.

So Muslim Imams conspire to deceive the population with carefully crafted lies, that attempt to give deeper meaning to the Quranic verses.So when the quran says, at sura 21.33 and 36.40 that the sun has an orbit, Imams falsely claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But this is utter lies, and the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the earth, and I can prove it with the following hadith.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. So this proves that the claim the quran says the sun has an orbit in the galaxy is wrong.

Thank you for your hard work and digging up various contents of the Qur'an and the Bible. You are completely superstitious about the Qur'an. Of course, it is a superstition that Muslims themselves have said. And you read somewhere. The Qur'an is not what Muslims have translated and interpreted. Of course, in the seventh century, they wrote everything they did not know and understood. But unfortunately, even in the twentieth century, Muslims say the same translations and interpretations. Therefore, I firmly say that this is not the translation and interpretation of the Qur'an. As Muslims say. And you are using it against Muslims. No. Not true at all. More is expected of you. This is the answer to all similar messages from you and other friends.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Heydarian, what could convince you that you are wrong?

Only the word of God in the Qur'an is a documented proof for me.

 

[heydarian saeed]

heydarian, yet again, one more time, you've done exactly that same thing. With pretty flowery words you've responded to my jokes and general comments, but my actual substantial comments --- or at least, my pointing to the substance in Pixel42's comments, that you've been doing your very best to gloss over all of this time even while playing out a charade of respecting her and her words --- in my post #2568 addressed to you.

This is so utterly utterly brazen that words fail me. What kind of excuse can you possibly put up to explain away your ignoring this post of mine, even as you put up this whole show over exchanging wordy pleasantries off of my less than substantial posts and jokes?

To make it easier for you to engage with what was said there --- or at least, let me rephrase that, to make it that much more difficult for you to keep on ignoring what was said there --- let me briefly recap:

You'd finanally finally finally understood, or claimed to, the meaning of the term "begging the question" and "circularity", the logical fallacy that Pixel42 has been patiently exposing in your lengthy expositions on evolution. In as much as you finally understand what "circularity" is and what "begging the question" refers to, no doubt you now see how Pixel42's posts --- that you claim you've been reading with attention and "respect" --- clearly show that your argument about evolution are fallacious. Are you able to clearly admit that? Further, in as much your arguments about evolution were meant to prop up your broader arguments about the Quran pre-empting evolution and science in general, and your larger argument about the infallibility of the Quran, to that extent this dents your overall broad position about the Quran itself. Are you able to clearly admit that?

Nnly the word of God in the Qur'an is a documented proof for me.

 

[heydarian saeed]

No, That is not what is meant by "Evolution".

Sub-atomic nuclear fields do not "evolve" as a "survival of their fittest". And neither do chemical reactions. That is not what is properly meant by "Evolution". The Big Bang is not "Evolution". The collapse of stars is not "Evolution". The expansion of steam from boiling water is not "Evolution" ... the explosion of an atomic bomb is not "evolution"!

Evolution is what Darwin described for the way that living species adapt to their surroundings in a way that produces new & more useful traits such as an increase in height, a longer beak, a different skin colour etc. That is what is really meant by "Evolution".

And none of that is mentioned in the Quran. That's yet another outright lie from you. Neither "evolution" of living species, or any 14 billion year-old Big Bang production of the universe is mentioned anywhere in the Quran ... that claim is an outright whopping lie ...

... you need to produce genuine independent science research papers which support your claim that from the 7th century the Quran had described Darwins evolution of species & the Big Bang ... where are the papers? ...

... just produce the papers, where are they?

... there should be tens of thousands of such papers, so just produce proper references to/from (say) half a dozen of them here ... where are they?

... they are your only way of showing any truth to your claims ... produce the papers.

You are making scientific claims here. That means you most certainly do need to produce all the genuine independent real scientific papers that are claiming to show that God told Mohamed about evolution and universe formation in 600AD ...

... that IS THE BOTTOM LINE & the END OF THE ROAD HERE ... do you have these real papers with the real science, or not?

Hello
No. No scientific article has been written in this regard. This is the first time for knowledge in the Qur'an, as I said. Only I asked you and everyone to keep in mind:
The Qur'an only refers to modern science. And in verses he spoke with the same words that the people of the seventh century said. So that they understand the words and are not unfamiliar to them. But he never told them the scientific subject. Because they did not understand. It is our duty to understand with the advancement of science in the twentieth century and even later. I said two verses. What do you think when you swear to:
Time of birth of the star - the time of the destruction and fall of the star if you do not understand what it means white hole and black hole. And modern science has proven it. In the Qur'an, he mentions this important modern science with only one oath. Details with scientists.
All the verses that refer to modern science are like this. Just mentioned. The details and scientific proof are the responsibility of scientists. The Quran is not just a scientific book. It is a religious book. But there are also verses from science. 2500 verses out of 6200 verses are related to science. But it is only mentioned. Not with the details and scientific proof as you expect. This is quite clear. And I have told you many times.

 

[Scorpion]

Thank you for your hard work and digging up various contents of the Qur'an and the Bible. You are completely superstitious about the Qur'an. Of course, it is a superstition that Muslims themselves have said. And you read somewhere. The Qur'an is not what Muslims have translated and interpreted. Of course, in the seventh century, they wrote everything they did not know and understood. But unfortunately, even in the twentieth century, Muslims say the same translations and interpretations. Therefore, I firmly say that this is not the translation and interpretation of the Qur'an. As Muslims say. And you are using it against Muslims. No. Not true at all. More is expected of you. This is the answer to all similar messages from you and other friends.

Don't fob me off with that, standard Muslim propaganda that I cannot understand the Quran unless I can read it in Arabic.

Does the Quran say, at verse 21.33 and 36.40 that the sun floats in an orbit?

 

[IanS]

Only the word of God in the Qur'an is a documented proof for me.

That is preaching.

You are preaching religious faith again.

 

[IanS]

Nnly the word of God in the Qur'an is a documented proof for me.

You are preaching again.

You are only ever preaching fanatical religious God beliefs.

 

[Scorpion]

Only the word of God in the Qur'an is a documented proof for me.

As you know I believe in God, and when you say the universe is God created, and we are evolving for a purpose, I am on your side.

But when you say the Quran is the word of God, it makes me want to scream.

The God I believe in is not a mumbling semi literate monster, which he would be if he is responsible for the trash that is in the Quran.

 

[IanS]

Hello
No. No scientific article has been written in this regard. This is the first time for knowledge in the Qur'an, as I said. Only I asked you and everyone to keep in mind:

So you admit that there are NO GENUINE SCIENTIFIC PAPERS THAT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS AT ALL.

Out of of tens of thousands of such papers published every year, over at least the last 100 years, not a single one claims to find any such evidence of God or any evidence at all for any modern science ever being described in your Quran! None. Zero.

That means there is no scientifically valid evidence for any of the claims you have made here.

All of the science agrees that the answers and explanations for everything ever observed or studied anywhere in the entire universe, are completely natural and with no evidence whatsoever of any God existing to do anything at all.

That is in 100% total contradiction of all the claims you have made here. It means that all of science, totally 100% disagrees with you.

For almost everything known or even conceivable in the entire universe, we have vast mountains of scientific evidence, and incredibly precise explanations which have been tested & confirmed in every way known to Man. And from all of that, the evidence for your claims and beliefs is precisely, ZERO.

You can believe whatever you like. You can believe in as many supernatural creatures & as many supernatual miracles as you wish for. But that is a BELIEF … you are merely preaching RELIGIOUS FAITH.

But we are now in the 21st century. And your 7-th century religious FAITH is now worthless when it cannot be confirmed by Science …

… and that's the end of the discussion. Come back when you CAN produce a range of genuine research papers that claim to have discovered God and discovered that God revealed science to Mohamed in 600AD.

 

[Pixel42]

This is the answer to all similar messages from you and other friends.

It is an entirely inadequate answer, for the reasons that have been explained to you.

 

[Chanakya]

Nnly the word of God in the Qur'an is a documented proof for me.

Fair enough. That is, at least that's clearly unambiguously put.

Not much to say to that, is there? Put together someone who declares that only the word of the Bible is documented proof for him, and someone else who like you says the same about the Quran, and yet another who says the same thing about other his paritucular brand of woo like maybe the Mormon Bible or the Bahai stuff or whatever, and the only reasonable thing to do is leave them be. Because, I mean, what else is there to do or to say?

Mark Corrigan had been asking you, three or four times, what might make you change your mind about the Quran. Clearly the answer is "Nothing". That's exactly what you're saying here. ([eta]As you directly spell out to Mike Corrigan as well --- hadn't noticed that post of yours when I was typing this post out.[/eta])

Well, at least you honestly acknowledge this in this post of yours, even as you go dissembling away in the rest of thread. Thanks for that unambiguous clarification, I guess.

 

[Mojo]

Only the word of God in the Qur'an is a documented proof for me.

The only thing that would convince you that the Quran is not the word of God would be the word of God in the Quran telling you that it is not the word of God?

 

[IanS]

No.Only the word of God in the Qur'an is a documented proof for me.

Well that is a huge problem, if you actually care about truth in this world.

Because there is no "Proof" that the Quran contains the word of any "God".

I hate to repeat this for the 50th time here, but if there really was any proof of God in the Quran, then it would certainly be in every scientific paper ever published (because it would be the greatest discovery in the entire history of Mankind) ... but of course no real science paper has ever found any such "proof" of God, and in fact there is not a single science paper that finds even the smallest spec of "evidence" for any God ...

.. so what you are talking about in your words quoted above, is not a "proof", it is nothing more that just a belief that you have from religious faith.

But as various people have noted for any of us - "you are entitled to your own beliefs, but you are not entitled to claim your own facts!" ... when you talk about a "proof", that means a "fact", i.e. an actual "certainty" ... you may be entitled to "believe" whatever you want, but what you have no right to do is to claim that your beliefs are "proven facts".

You have said here many times that you respect science in the sense that you accept that science discovers evidence and provides explanations that we can test and show that those answers are correct. But in that case you really must accept the conclusion of science when it emphatically shows that there is no evidence of your God existing. You can't just accept all that science shows & explains to be correct, but then say that you don't accept it when it disagrees with your religious faith-beliefs...

… you cannot act as if you will accept science when it says that a Big Bang occurred, when it says that quantum process exist, when it provides you with medical science to save the life of your children etc., but then claim it's honest for you to reject science when it contradicts your God-beliefs … and the reason why you “cannot” do that, is because it is dishonest to do that! Of course, if you do not care about honesty and telling the truth in this world, then you can do and say anything at all … you can for example claim as you just did above that God's existence is “proved” in the Quran, but that would (as just explained) be simply a direct lie.

 

[sackett]

There are people for whom the word of John Frum is proof. Really.

Heydarian, try looking up John Frum in Wikipedia. You read English perfectly well enough for that, in case the Farsi Wiki doesn't carry the article. (I'm sorry that I have difficulties posting links, but it will only take you a few seconds to access Wikipedia.)

I think that all religious people should learn about Frumism. It's a genuine religion, practiced by some hundreds of people, and it's based on beliefs that we -- you, me, all of us -- can show to be absolutely and conclusively false.

The analogy with other religions is close. I won't claim that it's quite a perfect analogy; maybe you will.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Only the word of God in the Qur'an is a documented proof for me.

No, that isn't what I asked.

I asked what could convince you that you're WRONG?

 

[heydarian saeed]

There are people for whom the word of John Frum is proof. Really.

Heydarian, try looking up John Frum in Wikipedia. You read English perfectly well enough for that, in case the Farsi Wiki doesn't carry the article. (I'm sorry that I have difficulties posting links, but it will only take you a few seconds to access Wikipedia.)

I think that all religious people should learn about Frumism. It's a genuine religion, practiced by some hundreds of people, and it's based on beliefs that we -- you, me, all of us -- can show to be absolutely and conclusively false.

The analogy with other religions is close. I won't claim that it's quite a perfect analogy; maybe you will.

Hello dear Philosopher
Thank you for your good guidance.
Thanks

 

[heydarian saeed]

No, that isn't what I asked.

I asked what could convince you that you're WRONG?

Hello
I accept my mistakes whenever someone says a good reason. And my arms are open. But there is no mistake in the Qur'an and the word of God. Not acceptable at all. The Qur'an is complete without the slightest mistake. I'm absolutely sure. And I believe in the Quran.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Hello
I accept my mistakes whenever someone says a good reason. And my arms are open. But there is no mistake in the Qur'an and the word of God. Not acceptable at all. The Qur'an is complete without the slightest mistake. I'm absolutely sure. And I believe in the Quran.

Yet it completely neglects to mention both the Americas and Australia, while also completely ignoring the effects of things like the shift in length of day for core concepts like Ramadan. Not even going into the many many factual errors in there.

So what you are saying is not that your mind is open, but rather that you've closed your mind to actually *looking* at the Qur'an lest you have to admit the errors in there.

Now that is fine, but don't expect that to ever convince anyone.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Do not be saddened by the bitterness ...
There is a person nearby ...
Farther from people's eyes ...
Closer to the jugular vein ...
One day he will hold your hand like that ...
That astonishes all those who one day turned their backs on you and left you alone.