The supernatural

[junkshop]

I have proved the spirit and the science with perfectly logical and rational and scientific reasons of God - supernatural . I wonder if you have not read any of them. Or you hit an empty pebble. I did not claim. I examined the reality of the existence of God and the supernatural for you. And I proved it in logical and rational ways. Of course, I should not be surprised by you. Because .... your words are not logical. And you deny the truth and reality. This is your usual approach. And the approach is inappropriate and disgusting.

Deleted. Changed my mind.

 

[Chanakya]

Oh dear professor, I am looking for logic and reason in your group and association. But I have seen less. If you think your success makes sense, please let me know. More than anything, I see people among you in this group who are: elusive logic - elusive system - irrational and a follower of speculation without any valid evidence !! And they are professional skeptics. In your group, I see a lot of thinking from Aristotle, Hipparchus and Ptolemy. While their thinking has many drawbacks. And even rejected. You are expected to think better of this in a scientifically and technologically advanced country. And stay up to date. Thanks for your cooperation.
It is better that you do not look at issues one-dimensionally. Use the rational sciences and logic along with the experimental sciences, which is a good approach. And get help from your intellect. I see less of you in this correct approach. Dear Professor: Everything is not limited to experimental sciences. And it is not just experimental science. There are other sciences as well. Which helps people to fully understand various issues. Not everything is in experimental science. Understands reason and logic much better. I hope you understand me well. This is not a superstition. It is worthy of thought. I also use empirical science in my speeches. And from the sciences of reason and logic. Be moderate. And do not think dogmatic.
I see your character better than this. And you think better than others in this group.
Good luck.

heydarain, you're simply talking nonsense here. I'm not saying now that your beliefs are nonsensical --- which they absolutely are, but that isn't my point here at this time --- what I'm saying here is, you're carrying on a joke of a conservation here. People are telling you one thing, and you seemingly are interpreting it as something else, and responding with out and out non sequiturs.

We're all more or less sure by now that this not just the translation software acting up. We've given you the benefit of the doubt, as much of it is as is reasonable, and much much more, but it's clear now that you're being disingenuous here.

Just in case there's a shred of honest intent within you, just in case there's a shred of intellectual integrity within you, just in case there's a tiny portion of you that is sincerely interested in actual truth, then my recommendation to you is that you get hold of some friend who is conversant in English. Even over there in Iran, surely among your friends there are one or two who are able to understand English? This translation software thing's no good, just get them to fully read through this entire thread with you.

Seriously. You have the chance to maybe get your eyes opened to reality and truth, after having lifelong wallowed in ignorance and rank superstition. Make use of this chance, heydarian. This may well be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for you to break through out of the ignorance that has surrounded you from birth onwards (because usually people don't really question things that they take for granted, and this may be the one time when you're having these things clearly explained for your benefit, by multiple people who know what they're talking about, and what's more customized to you specifically).

 

[Scorpion]

If anyone makes a logical argument that Muhammad was not a prophet of God. And he has said the book of the Qur'an himself. Or was able to copy from ancient scriptures. I will investigate. If you are right. I also reject Muhammad. I have no prejudice. And I hate superstitions and superstitions. I have always thought of the day. Dear associations, prove to me rationally and logically that there is no God. The Quran is superstition. And Muhammad is a liar. To check. And if you are right, I will accept.

Muhammad copied the bible all through the unholy Quran, but mostly without the rich narratives of the bible. He just kept using the names of bible characters to make his ramblings sound more important.

Not only did he steal from the bible but he also stole from Arab myths and other writings. There are two verses in the Quran about Jesus bringing a clay bird to life when he was a boy, and these are stolen from a known book of fables written in about 150AD. The reference in the Quran to Jesus speaking in the cradle comes from this same book of fables.

A BOOK OF FABLES ! Not the words of God.

 

[Scorpion]

... Continue to answer1581:
And they will be in the torment of eternal hell. I have a question from you. Please answer me correctly. How will you treat your enemies? Your enemy if he kills your friends. Kill your family. Insult you. Ignore your principles. And always seek to hit you and your like-minded. What are you doing with this enemy of yours? Do you caress her? Did you forgive him? While you have repeatedly warned him to stop being violent and hostile to you. But he continued. Tell me honestly. What do you do with him? God will deal with you according to your actions and behavior. Whoever you are, you see the result of your actions. If you are good. And do not be hostile to him. Your punishment will be good and heaven. And if not, what do you expect?
Please think logically. Unbelievers are the enemy of God. And their recompense is Hell. This makes perfect sense. I speak to you honestly. And I have no fear. Think well. The whole universe and beyond is in the hands of God. And its power is infinite. Do not be afraid of him. He is kind. You make sense. I love God. I am not afraid of his power. He is kind. I am friends with him. He is also friends with me. He is out of place and time. When you say God is everywhere. This statement needs to be explained. He is not in a place and time that is made of matter. He is the creator of time and space. The maker of everything. And he is with all the creatures he has created. Sees everyone. He hears all sounds. He is aware of all our deeds. He is God. God exists.
Rest assured that I am not afraid of anyone. I am one that God has given me. And He will take my being whenever God wills. Do not worry about me. Make an honest offer. I am eager to hear logical and rational talk. And I try to make my answer logical and rational. Also, read my words so far completely and without prejudice. As I read your words perfectly. And I answer. Thank you.

Are you really going to justify the cruel verses of hell in the Quran?

I take it you are familiar with verses 4.56 and 22.19 and 40.72

Which state that unbelievers will be dragged through boiling liquid in chains, and into hellfire where they will have their skins burnt off and renewed and burnt off again for all eternity.

Verse 72.23 says " For any that disobey Allah and his messenger-for them is hell: They shall dwell therein forever."

You keep talking about the truth, and claim the Quran is the words of God.

Let me tell you the real truth. Muhammad made up these horrible verses to scare people into following him.

 

[Scorpion]

If I see anything in the Qur'an that is contrary to science, I will certainly leave it out. And I do not follow. .

The Quran says the sun and the moon each swim in an orbit, and it does not mean the sun orbits the galaxy as Muslim apologists proclaim. It means the sun orbits the earth; the flat earth, and it rests under the earth until it is reset at dawn. Here is a hadith that proves it.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, book 54, number 421

This hadith is the words of Muhammad who says that one day the sun will be sent back on its course, and then it will rise in the west.

This would not happen if it turned back in the orbit of the galaxy, as the sun would still rise in the east because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the sun to rise and set.

If as you claim you are so rational and open to truth you will read this hadith, realize I am right, and the Quran says the sun orbits the earth. Then you can throw this stupid book of nonsense in the rubbish and get on with your life.

 

[Scorpion]

Muhammad was illiterate. So who in the Qur'an has spoken of these sciences: black hole - wormhole - neutron star - gravity - the exact stages of embryo formation - space travel - special spaceship - calculating the speed of light - calculating the life of the universe - cosmic smoke - texture Cosmic - Securit - Time bending - Cryonic technology and .... Fluid cloud species.
.

No one spoke of any of these things in the Quran, you have twisted simplistic verses out of their true meaning and context. I have quoted most of the verses you make these claims for in this thread and shown they do not say what you claim.

 

[IanS]

... Continue to answer1581:
And they will be in the torment of eternal hell. I have a question from you. Please answer me correctly. How will you treat your enemies? Your enemy if he kills your friends. Kill your family. Insult you. Ignore your principles.

Nobody here has "killed you & your family". Nobody here has "hit you or your friends".

Who here has ever hit you or your family? Just answer that please ..

You are here now openly claiming that God is right & good to slaughter people who have never done any harm to you. You are supporting the mass murder of people who simply do not believe in your God!

Unbelievers are the enemy of God. And their recompense is Hell.

I love God.

 

[Jimbo07]

So the ongoing discussion is largely focussed around one poster, and certain scriptural interpretations...

... but how are we doing, in general? It's possible I'm out of touch with the current state of discussions around the world on these topics. That said:

Has anybody recently provided any credible, testable evidence that the "supernatural" is even a thing?

Or, allowing for the fact that the supernatural may circularly explain itself, and exist in some other kind of existence, not requiring evidence...

Has anybody recently provided any credible, testable evidence that the "separately existing supernatural" even interacts with physical existence as we otherwise understand it?

 

[junkshop]

So the ongoing discussion is largely focussed around one poster, and certain scriptural interpretations...

Because that is who started the thread, and the extent of the 'proof' they have provided.*

... but how are we doing, in general? It's possible I'm out of touch with the current state of discussions around the world on these topics. That said:

Has anybody recently provided any credible, testable evidence that the "supernatural" is even a thing?

No.

Or, allowing for the fact that the supernatural may circularly explain itself, and exist in some other kind of existence, not requiring evidence...

Has anybody recently provided any credible, testable evidence that the "separately existing supernatural" even interacts with physical existence as we otherwise understand it?

No.


*with some recycled Aquinas apologia crap, sorry I forgot to mention that.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

So the ongoing discussion is largely focussed around one poster, and certain scriptural interpretations...

... but how are we doing, in general? It's possible I'm out of touch with the current state of discussions around the world on these topics. That said:

Has anybody recently provided any credible, testable evidence that the "supernatural" is even a thing?

Or, allowing for the fact that the supernatural may circularly explain itself, and exist in some other kind of existence, not requiring evidence...

Has anybody recently provided any credible, testable evidence that the "separately existing supernatural" even interacts with physical existence as we otherwise understand it?

I think heydarian has. Except for the credible and testable parts.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Muhammad copied the bible all through the unholy Quran, but mostly without the rich narratives of the bible. He just kept using the names of bible characters to make his ramblings sound more important.

Not only did he steal from the bible but he also stole from Arab myths and other writings. There are two verses in the Quran about Jesus bringing a clay bird to life when he was a boy, and these are stolen from a known book of fables written in about 150AD. The reference in the Quran to Jesus speaking in the cradle comes from this same book of fables.

A BOOK OF FABLES ! Not the words of God.

Hello. Although I have no desire to talk to you. But let me just remind you. None of your words make sense. Because you do not provide any credible evidence or sources. You are just talking about. You have no argument. And not a valid document. Not a credible source. How can I accept your unsubstantiated and unsourced statements? It's embarrassing. I'm really sorry for you. I will say just one sentence: one person has said all the divine religious books. If you have written several books, I do not know! And repeat sentences in your books. Have you stolen your books ?! Unfortunately, you do not understand the slightest obvious word. I'm really sorry.
The Qur'an confirms all the holy books. And the scriptures confirm the Qur'an. All prophets are confirmed by the Qur'an. The coming of Muhammad is mentioned in all the holy books. And they have confirmed him. Have you read the Bible or the Torah? You have never even seen it. Go search and see that the Bible confirms both the Qur'an and Muhammad. May God bless him.
Your slanders and lies about God, the Qur'an and Muhammad will not go unanswered.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 12

You even know about Ramses II, whose mummified body is in the French Museum with a special passport. And everyone knows you are lying. And you say his body is in the Egyptian pyramid !!

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 12

 

[heydarian saeed]

Your quote of 27.88 is flawed. Here are several translations which simply state mountains will eventually pass away:


Sahih International: And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah , who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do. Pickthall: And thou seest the hills thou deemest solid flying with the flight of clouds: the doing of Allah Who perfecteth all things. Lo! He is Informed of what ye do.

Yusuf Ali: Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they shall pass away as the clouds pass away: (such is) the artistry of Allah, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do.

Shakir: And you see the mountains, you think them to be solid, and they shall pass away as the passing away of the cloud-- the handiwork of Allah Who has made every thing thoroughly; surely He is Aware of what you do.

Muhammad Sarwar: You think the mountains are solid. In fact, they move like clouds. It is God's technique which has established everything perfectly. He is well Aware of what you do.

Mohsin Khan: And you will see the mountains and think them solid, but they shall pass away as the passing away of the clouds. The Work of Allah, Who perfected all things, verily! He is Well-Acquainted with what you do.

Arberry: and thou shalt see the mountains, that thou supposest fixed, passing by like clouds -- God's handiwork, who has created everything very well. He is aware of the things you do.

Among the translations you have provided, the correct international translation is complete. Although others have said to some extent. So you see, the Fluid cloud species has all been said in some way. The term Fluid cloud species is a specific thematic interpretation. That not everyone understands. And needs a thorough review. And I told you. But ... the destruction of the mountains will take place at the "time of the resurrection." And that's right. And it will be like quicksand. And the ground will be flat.

 

[Pixel42]

That completely unwarranted attack on Scorpion was disgraceful, heydarian.

And the mummy of Rameses II is in Cairo Museum in Egypt, as has been pointed out to you before.

 

[heydarian saeed]

In the following is the reply to message 1581:
Proof of God and the supernatural requires logical reasoning. I have said in my article in previous messages. Please read message 367 on page 10 and message 418 on page 11. Everything should not be proved by empirical science. Some issues only need to be proven by rational science and logic. Also, the lack of objective evidence and empirical science to prove the subject is not a reason to reject it.
Many scientific laws and scientific topics that have been proven in the present century. It had not been proven in previous centuries. And so people did not accept it. But after scientific proof, they all accepted. We have many such issues. For example, was quantum physics proven 200 years ago? And no one knew. Some issues have not yet been proven by experimental science. I declare that: the distance between physics and metaphysics with the advancement of science and technology is narrowing every day. I hope that the line between physics and metaphysics will be removed as soon as possible. And we understand both worlds. This will happen very quickly. Do not hurry. You will see the soul in the laboratory with special tools. Although I have mentioned this in my article.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Nobody here has "killed you & your family". Nobody here has "hit you or your friends".

Who here has ever hit you or your family? Just answer that please ..

You are here now openly claiming that God is right & good to slaughter people who have never done any harm to you. You are supporting the mass murder of people who simply do not believe in your God!

Oh my God. I did not say that anyone hit me or read me. No. I said enemy of God. And God will punish His enemies after the respite He has given them, if they do not repent. Didn't you answer my question? How will you treat your enemies? Will you forgive them despite your torture and killing you and your family? Definitely your answer is no. Good. God will punish his enemies. you understood?
God will throw his enemies to hell. This is logical. How will you treat your enemy? Okay. God is also rational. It burns its enemy. Not his friend. you understood? Be a friend of God. You will see that God is only merciful.

 

[Scorpion]

The Qur'an confirms all the holy books. And the scriptures confirm the Qur'an. All prophets are confirmed by the Qur'an. The coming of Muhammad is mentioned in all the holy books. And they have confirmed him. Have you read the Bible or the Torah? You have never even seen it. Go search and see that the Bible confirms both the Qur'an and Muhammad..

Once again you are talking trash, there is nothing whatever in the bible about Muhammad. Muslims falsely claim that verse John 16.7 which says God will send a comforter means Muhammad. But it does not. It means God will send the holy Ghost.

 

[Lothian]

Oh my God. I did not say that anyone hit me or read me. No. I said enemy of God. And God will punish His enemies after the respite He has given them, if they do not repent. Didn't you answer my question? How will you treat your enemies? Will you forgive them despite your torture and killing you and your family? Definitely your answer is no. Good. God will punish his enemies. you understood?
God will throw his enemies to hell. This is logical. How will you treat your enemy? Okay. God is also rational. It burns its enemy. Not his friend. you understood? Be a friend of God. You will see that God is only merciful.

You have a habit of asking a question then answering it on the reader's behalf. Invariably your answer is completely wrong.

 

[Scorpion]

Hello. Although I have no desire to talk to you. But let me just remind you. None of your words make sense. Because you do not provide any credible evidence or sources. You are just talking about. You have no argument. And not a valid document. Not a credible source. How can I accept your unsubstantiated and unsourced statements?

HERE IS MY SOURCE;

The story in the quran concerning Jesus childhood, about an incident where he makes a clay bird and brings it to life is not a part of the Christian bible, and the original texts are considered apocryphal. They are regarded by Christian scholars as having been written in around 150AD, as propaganda by the early Christians, attempting to fill in the missing years of Jesus life.So what are these stories doing in the quran claiming to be a message from God?

The following are two verses in the quran that contain the references.
From the Yusuf Ali translation.

003.049 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in
your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

005.110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'


As can be seen the quran speaks of only one bird, and says Jesus breathed life into it. But the only historical text that contains such a story speaks of 12 birds, and they were brought to life by Jesus commanding them to "Go". Therefore the quran does not even get the details of the original fictional document correct. Added to this the New Testament states that Jesus did his first miracle at a time he was around thirty years old. (John 2.11)

Here is the relevant text, translated from Greek and written in, The Apocryphal New Testament, by M.R.James, published by Oxford:Clarendon press, 1924.
The stories of Thomas the Israelite, (not St Thomas of the bible) the philosopher, concerning the works of the childhood of the Lord.

1. I, Thomas the Israelite, tell you, and all the brethren that are Gentile, the works of the childhood of our Lord Jesus Christ and his mighty deeds, and all that he did when he was born in our land.
2.1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the water that flowed there into pools, and made them clean, and commanded them by his word alone.
2.2 Having made soft clay, he fashioned twelve sparrows. It was the Sabbath when he did these things. And there were also many other little children playing with him.
2.3. A certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed and told his father Joseph: your child is at the brook, and he has taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and has polluted the Sabbath day.
2.4. Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Why do you do these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping.
2.5 when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.

There is a reference to this story, and the flaws in it in the book.
The original sources of the quran. by William St Clair Tisdall.
This book is in the public domain and can be found on the Internet.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

How will you treat your enemies?

Who is my enemy?

All the people who simply don't know I exist - are they my enemies? No, obviously not. What about people who perhaps have been told I exist but think I am fictional? Are they my enemies? No, they're not. What about people who think I do exist but mistake me for another person with the same name? Are they my enemies? No.

None of those people wish to harm me or my family. They may not believe in me but they are in no way my enemies.

 

[Scorpion]

Your slanders and lies about God, the Qur'an and Muhammad will not go unanswered.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 12

I am not afraid of your rotten hell, because the God I believe in does not burn people for eternity just for not believing in the lies of the false prophet Muhammad. He made up all those horrible verses to scare silly Arabs into fighting his battles for him. It is Muhammad who is the blasphemer not me.

THE QURAN IS A BOOK OF LIES AND AN INSULT TO GOD