The supernatural

[IanS]

Hi. Great. I follow the theory that "God is beyond matter and energy." And basically it is not right as we perceive it from God. It is true that only "God exists" we do not know the gender and type of it at all. And any talk of this is a big mistake. And it is definitely wrong. I repeat, this is the only true belief that: God exists.
I totally agree with the training. What training do you say? Introduce its sources. Thank you.

What does it mean to say that anything is "beyond matter and energy"? Where is that, where is the "beyond"? ... where does that "beyond" exist? What is that?

You are just making the same worthless claim that Christians make when they often say "God is outside space and time" ... where is there any place that is outside of space and time, where is that? ... those are just a string of human invented words put together to sound clever and to avoid the uncomfortable truth that they have no idea where their God could ever be ... and your almost identical words are the exact same, ie just some silly phrase to avoid the fact that your God can never be produced or found by anyone.

You also described that belief as your "Theory" ... it is most definitely not a "theory" in any scientifically valid sense. All it is, is a 100% worthless trivial claim that you and other theists have simply invented in words to cover up your inability to ever produce the God ...

... the God, claimed since at least 1000BC by people who were almost 100% educationally ignorant by todays standards, people who were drowning in all manner of untrue superstitions and with every moment of their daily lives submerged in a mountain of religious beliefs and practices, that God has never been produced, shown or found by anyone ever in all of that last 3000 years since the time when some uneducated Jewish mystical preachers invented the idea (an idea that was also almost identical to every other god believed by every other civilisation from at least 3000BC).

You are also overdue for a lot of answers -

1. I asked you if you support your God when you say he will soon slaughter all infidels ... well do you think he'd be right and good to do that?

2. I already explained to you how and why the energy fields that compose our universe, must always exist (there is simply no possibility of non-existence).

3. I offered at least twice before to have an honest genuine converstaion on any one of your main beliefs, such as your belief that you (or Aquinas) have "proved" the existence of God ... do you want an honest converstaion, or are you so afraid and insecure in your religion that you refuse even to reply to such offers of honest educated enquiry?

 

[Pixel42]

I repeat, this is the only true belief that: God exists.

There are plenty of beliefs which can be proved to be true, and plenty that can be proved to be false. Belief in God is in the third category: those which cannot be proved or disproved. We can only assess the likelihood that such a belief is true. If there is at least some objective evidence for it, or if it explains something otherwise inexplicable, then we might reasonably entertain it even though we cannot prove it. But belief in God fails both those criteria. There is simply no good reason to believe it, no matter how fervently you might wish it were otherwise.

 

[heydarian saeed]

You're like a walking talking compendium of logical fallacies!

Check out Galileo Fallacy, if you wish to know more about this latest gem of yours.

Oh dear professor, I am looking for logic and reason in your group and association. But I have seen less. If you think your success makes sense, please let me know. More than anything, I see people among you in this group who are: elusive logic - elusive system - irrational and a follower of speculation without any valid evidence !! And they are professional skeptics. In your group, I see a lot of thinking from Aristotle, Hipparchus and Ptolemy. While their thinking has many drawbacks. And even rejected. You are expected to think better of this in a scientifically and technologically advanced country. And stay up to date. Thanks for your cooperation.
It is better that you do not look at issues one-dimensionally. Use the rational sciences and logic along with the experimental sciences, which is a good approach. And get help from your intellect. I see less of you in this correct approach. Dear Professor: Everything is not limited to experimental sciences. And it is not just experimental science. There are other sciences as well. Which helps people to fully understand various issues. Not everything is in experimental science. Understands reason and logic much better. I hope you understand me well. This is not a superstition. It is worthy of thought. I also use empirical science in my speeches. And from the sciences of reason and logic. Be moderate. And do not think dogmatic.
I see your character better than this. And you think better than others in this group.
Good luck.

 

[heydarian saeed]

There are plenty of beliefs which can be proved to be true, and plenty that can be proved to be false. Belief in God is in the third category: those which cannot be proved or disproved. We can only assess the likelihood that such a belief is true. If there is at least some objective evidence for it, or if it explains something otherwise inexplicable, then we might reasonably entertain it even though we cannot prove it. But belief in God fails both those criteria. There is simply no good reason to believe it, no matter how fervently you might wish it were otherwise.

I enjoy your beautiful and logical expression. Thank you. If objective evidence and empirical science can not prove anything, there is no reason to reject it. I have said this before. There is as much objective evidence as there is to the whole universe that proves the existence of God. Of course, these can not be measured and tested. They are only seen and prove by reason and logic that God exists.
I have given rational and logical reasons in this group to prove God. And all these logical ways to prove God have been accepted by philosophers and scientists of the intellectual and human sciences. And it is acceptable. I have never seen anyone in this group who can reject these logical and rational ways. And argue with the approach of logic and reason. And reject the logical ways of proving God. Tell me if you have logical and rational reasons to reject the ways of proving God. Until I check. And I'm glad to learn science from you on this subject. Waiting.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Again, I say to all of you: If any of you can prove to me rationally and logically that God does not exist. And it is superstition. I will examine your rational and logical way. And if it is correct. I accept. And like you, I deny God. Is there anyone who can reject God for me in a logical and rational way? Tell me to check. If true. I will reject God too. And the Qur'an, which is the book of God. If he even sees the verse as contradictory to science, tell me to check. If his claim is true. I accept.
And Muhammad, peace be upon him. If anyone makes a logical argument that Muhammad was not a prophet of God. And he has said the book of the Qur'an himself. Or was able to copy from ancient scriptures. I will investigate. If you are right. I also reject Muhammad. I have no prejudice. And I hate superstitions and superstitions. I have always thought of the day. Dear associations, prove to me rationally and logically that there is no God. The Quran is superstition. And Muhammad is a liar. To check. And if you are right, I will accept. I do not think dogmatic. Do not be dogmatic. Be comfortable and honest with each other.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I enjoy your beautiful and logical expression. Thank you. If objective evidence and empirical science can not prove anything, there is no reason to reject it. I have said this before. There is as much objective evidence as there is to the whole universe that proves the existence of God. Of course, these can not be measured and tested. They are only seen and prove by reason and logic that God exists.
I have given rational and logical reasons in this group to prove God. And all these logical ways to prove God have been accepted by philosophers and scientists of the intellectual and human sciences. And it is acceptable. I have never seen anyone in this group who can reject these logical and rational ways. And argue with the approach of logic and reason. And reject the logical ways of proving God. Tell me if you have logical and rational reasons to reject the ways of proving God. Until I check. And I'm glad to learn science from you on this subject. Waiting.

Your supposed "proofs" are just circular reasoning and special pleading. They do not persuade anyone who does not already believe. They only appeal to people who already believe. This has been put to you many times, expressed in many forms of words. These are not new arguments.

If you had presented actual proof, you would have persuaded us that you were right. You have not. Waiting to be told, yet again, why we are not persuaded is not likely to generate any new explanations for this old, old argument.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Again, I say to all of you: If any of you can prove to me rationally and logically that God does not exist...

Humans have believed in vast numbers of Gods in the course of history. We are almost perfectly in agreement about their being imaginary. There is only one on which we disagree.

I cannot prove that those thousands of Gods are imaginary, nor that any is real. Nor can you. I'm not interested in trying to prove it. I only observe that none of them has ever had any detectable effect on reality, and I'm untroubled by that.

 

[junkshop]

Again, I say to all of you: If any of you can prove to me rationally and logically that God does not exist. And it is superstition. I will examine your rational and logical way. And if it is correct. I accept...

Heydarian, you've got this arse-about-face. You started this thread with the claim that you could prove the existence of the supernatural, and more specifically god, through your interpretation of the Qu'ran. This you have singularly failed to do.

It is not on anyone else to prove the non-existence of god. You made a claim. You need to prove it.

 

[heydarian saeed]

What does it mean to say that anything is "beyond matter and energy"? Where is that, where is the "beyond"? ... where does that "beyond" exist? What is that?

You are just making the same worthless claim that Christians make when they often say "God is outside space and time" ... where is there any place that is outside of space and time, where is that? ... those are just a string of human invented words put together to sound clever and to avoid the uncomfortable truth that they have no idea where their God could ever be ... and your almost identical words are the exact same, ie just some silly phrase to avoid the fact that your God can never be produced or found by anyone.

You also described that belief as your "Theory" ... it is most definitely not a "theory" in any scientifically valid sense. All it is, is a 100% worthless trivial claim that you and other theists have simply invented in words to cover up your inability to ever produce the God ...

... the God, claimed since at least 1000BC by people who were almost 100% educationally ignorant by todays standards, people who were drowning in all manner of untrue superstitions and with every moment of their daily lives submerged in a mountain of religious beliefs and practices, that God has never been produced, shown or found by anyone ever in all of that last 3000 years since the time when some uneducated Jewish mystical preachers invented the idea (an idea that was also almost identical to every other god believed by every other civilisation from at least 3000BC).

You are also overdue for a lot of answers -

1. I asked you if you support your God when you say he will soon slaughter all infidels ... well do you think he'd be right and good to do that?

2. I already explained to you how and why the energy fields that compose our universe, must always exist (there is simply no possibility of non-existence).

3. I offered at least twice before to have an honest genuine converstaion on any one of your main beliefs, such as your belief that you (or Aquinas) have "proved" the existence of God ... do you want an honest converstaion, or are you so afraid and insecure in your religion that you refuse even to reply to such offers of honest educated enquiry?

We humans are made of matter and body. But this matter is under the supervision and command of the soul. In modern science it is called "personality" or "I". Therefore, man does not understand anything other than these two categories that is not of matter and soul. This fact is undeniable. How are times and places made? Tell me to learn. Time and space are made of matter and energy. is it right? How are matter and energy made? Did they make each other? Or do they become one with successive changes? Is this the way to create matter or energy? Answer these questions please.
Please be reasonable. Our words are not to prove the existence of God with invented words. Of course, the irrational talk that you constantly make is definitely your own invention. Please be reasonable. Speak with logic and credible evidence. Our ears are full of this kind of music and song that you play. And we can produce better songs than these. But we do not need a song to speak logically with others. Please speak logically.
I agree. That: Some ignorant people have introduced superstitions into the divine religion. And it is unforgivable. And they will soon be punished for their wrongdoing. And I have said many times that the wrong policies of some seemingly Islamic countries have nothing to do with the principle of the divine religion. And it does not question God and the Qur'an. Basically, God, the Qur'an and the divine religion of Islam are free from any inaccurate and irrational words. And is clean. Please refer to the principle of Islam and Quran. Do not look at the politics of seemingly Islamic countries. But then: You said that God will slaughter his deniers. Yes . Exactly...

 

[heydarian saeed]

... Continue to answer1581:
And they will be in the torment of eternal hell. I have a question from you. Please answer me correctly. How will you treat your enemies? Your enemy if he kills your friends. Kill your family. Insult you. Ignore your principles. And always seek to hit you and your like-minded. What are you doing with this enemy of yours? Do you caress her? Did you forgive him? While you have repeatedly warned him to stop being violent and hostile to you. But he continued. Tell me honestly. What do you do with him? God will deal with you according to your actions and behavior. Whoever you are, you see the result of your actions. If you are good. And do not be hostile to him. Your punishment will be good and heaven. And if not, what do you expect?
Please think logically. Unbelievers are the enemy of God. And their recompense is Hell. This makes perfect sense. I speak to you honestly. And I have no fear. Think well. The whole universe and beyond is in the hands of God. And its power is infinite. Do not be afraid of him. He is kind. You make sense. I love God. I am not afraid of his power. He is kind. I am friends with him. He is also friends with me. He is out of place and time. When you say God is everywhere. This statement needs to be explained. He is not in a place and time that is made of matter. He is the creator of time and space. The maker of everything. And he is with all the creatures he has created. Sees everyone. He hears all sounds. He is aware of all our deeds. He is God. God exists.
Rest assured that I am not afraid of anyone. I am one that God has given me. And He will take my being whenever God wills. Do not worry about me. Make an honest offer. I am eager to hear logical and rational talk. And I try to make my answer logical and rational. Also, read my words so far completely and without prejudice. As I read your words perfectly. And I answer. Thank you.

 

[IanS]

Again, I say to all of you: If any of you can prove to me rationally and logically that God does not exist. And it is superstition. I will examine your rational and logical way. And if it is correct. I accept. And like you, I deny God. Is there anyone who can reject God for me in a logical and rational way? Tell me to check. If true. I will reject God too. And the Qur'an, which is the book of God. If he even sees the verse as contradictory to science, tell me to check. If his claim is true. I accept.

.

Every single person here has explained to you why your God claims are untrue. You are constantly acting as if that has never been explained to you. That is simply flat-out dishonest of you.

I have pointed out to you at least 10 times now that scientists all over the world would love to discover evidence of a God ... they absolutely love anything like that because it would be something totally amazing that would instantly change the entire world ...

... but even though there are perhaps 500,000 research papers published every year in the real science journals (ie not the fake religious journals where theists have given them scientific sounding names), there is not one genuine paper that has ever presented even the faintest microscopic scrap of evidence for a God ... you are claiming to have a proof, but all of science has never found even the most minimal genuine evidence of your God.

What is your explanation for that? Why, throughout all the history of modern science, in all of those millions of science research papers examining every conceivable thing throughout this entire universe, has there never been any genuine trace whatsoever of your claimed God? …

… on the complete contrary, what really does exist in almost every research paper ever published, has indirectly, or even directly, shown overwhelming mountains of evidence for why the God does not exist (and never has existed). In all of science, there is precisely Zero genuine honest evidence of your God.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Heydarian, you've got this arse-about-face. You started this thread with the claim that you could prove the existence of the supernatural, and more specifically god, through your interpretation of the Qu'ran. This you have singularly failed to do.

It is not on anyone else to prove the non-existence of god. You made a claim. You need to prove it.

I have proved the spirit and the science with perfectly logical and rational and scientific reasons of God - supernatural . I wonder if you have not read any of them. Or you hit an empty pebble. I did not claim. I examined the reality of the existence of God and the supernatural for you. And I proved it in logical and rational ways. Of course, I should not be surprised by you. Because .... your words are not logical. And you deny the truth and reality.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove personal attack

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... Unbelievers are the enemy of God. And their recompense is Hell. This makes perfect sense.

I am not the enemy of imaginary beings, I just don't believe they are real.

Fortunately hell is also imaginary. Are you claiming that your God does not know that many people honestly and sincerely believe that He does not exist? Or that He does not know why they believe otherwise? Or are you claiming that He does not know how to persuade them that He exists if He chose to do so? I suspect you do not think so. In that case, anyone He doomed to hell simply for not believing in Him is a victim of His decision to fail. Yet you think it is "perfect sense".

I am entirely persuaded that this silliness is just a myth to persuade believers to keep in line. I know you will disagree but it makes no difference.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Every single person here has explained to you why your God claims are untrue. You are constantly acting as if that has never explained to you. That is simply flat-out dishonest of you.

I have pointed out to you at least 10 times now that scientists all over the world would love to discover evidence of a God ... they absolutely love anything like that because it would be something totally amazing that would instantly change the entire world ...

... but even though there are perhaps 500,000 research papers published every year in the real science journals (ie not the fake religious journals where theists have given them scientific sounding names), there is not one genuine paper that has ever presented even the faintest microscopic scrap of evidence for a God ... you are claiming to have a proof, but all of science has never found even the most minimal genuine evidence of your God.

What is your explanation for that? Why, throughout all the history of modern science, in all of those millions of science research papers examining every conceivable thing throughout this entire universe, has there never been any genuine trace whatsoever of your claimed God? …

… on the complete contrary, what really does exist in almost every research paper ever published, has indirectly, or even directly, shown overwhelming mountains of evidence for why the God does not exist (and never has existed). In all of science, there is precisely Zero genuine honest evidence of your God.

Whatever I tell you. It is useless. You are not logical. You do not want to hear. I'm sorry.
A part of the verses that the Book of God has said about various sciences in the Qur'an. I told you. You do not hear. I have a hearing problem. You do not have a hearing problem. About 1300 verses in the book of God Quran have been said about various scientific topics. Verse 27/88 that I said recently. God speaks of quantum physics. "You think the mountain is solid. But the cloud is fluid. Don't you think?" 14 centuries ago, who knew quantum physics existed? Did Galen, Socrates, Ptolemy, Hippocrates, etc. know this? Never. No one knew.
Muhammad was illiterate. So who in the Qur'an has spoken of these sciences: black hole - wormhole - neutron star - gravity - the exact stages of embryo formation - space travel - special spaceship - calculating the speed of light - calculating the life of the universe - cosmic smoke - texture Cosmic - Securit - Time bending - Cryonic technology and .... Fluid cloud species.
Tell me, who said these modern sciences in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago? All these sciences are in the Qur'an. But he did not give the details. Until you and I discover in the 2021 century. He has left his measurements and tests for you and me. To do. At university, does the professor tell you everything about science? Or does the student have to research to find out? And discover?
If the university professor has not said everything. So is he illiterate? Or is there no master? Never.
Whatever I tell you. It is useless. You are not logical. You do not want to hear. I'm sorry.
A part of the verses that the Book of God has said about various sciences in the Qur'an. I told you. You do not hear. I have a hearing problem. You do not have a hearing problem. About 1300 verses in the book of God Quran have been said about various scientific topics. Verse 27/88 that I said recently. God speaks of quantum physics. "You think the mountain is solid. But the cloud is fluid. Don't you think?" 14 centuries ago, who knew quantum physics existed? Did Galen, Socrates, Ptolemy, Hippocrates, etc. know this? Never. No one knew.
Muhammad was illiterate. So who in the Qur'an has spoken of these sciences: black hole - wormhole - neutron star - gravity - the exact stages of embryo formation - space travel - special spaceship - calculating the speed of light - calculating the life of the universe - cosmic smoke - texture Cosmic - Securit - Time bending - Cryonic technology and .... Fluid cloud species.
Tell me, who said these modern sciences in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago? All these sciences are in the Qur'an. But he did not give the details. Until you and I discover in the 2021 century. He has left his measurements and tests for you and me. To do. At university, does the professor tell you everything about science? Or does the student have to research to find out? And discover?
If the university professor has not said everything. So is he illiterate? Or is there no master? Never.
I'm sorry. Your hands are empty. Because you are not logical.

 

[Pixel42]

I enjoy your beautiful and logical expression. Thank you. If objective evidence and empirical science can not prove anything, there is no reason to reject it. I have said this before. There is as much objective evidence as there is to the whole universe that proves the existence of God. Of course, these can not be measured and tested. They are only seen and prove by reason and logic that God exists.
I have given rational and logical reasons in this group to prove God. And all these logical ways to prove God have been accepted by philosophers and scientists of the intellectual and human sciences. And it is acceptable. I have never seen anyone in this group who can reject these logical and rational ways. And argue with the approach of logic and reason. And reject the logical ways of proving God. Tell me if you have logical and rational reasons to reject the ways of proving God. Until I check. And I'm glad to learn science from you on this subject. Waiting.

The problems with your "rational and logical reasons to prove God" have been explained to you at length by several posters, who have also pointed you to refutations of them by the philosophers and scientists are do not accept them. Even the very few philosophers and scientists who see any merit in these arguments at all would not claim that they prove the existence of God, the most they do is keep the question open.

 

[heydarian saeed]

what does it mean? "Muse" Help me. Thanks.

 

[Pixel42]

Whatever I tell you. It is useless. You are not logical. You do not want to hear. I'm sorry.

This is exactly what we are saying to you, heydarian. We are the ones employing rationality and logic (not to mention facts and evidence), you are the one who is refusing to hear them.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

what does it mean? "Muse" Help me. Thanks.

It has more than one meaning, but they're all related to inspiration.

To the ancient Greeks a muse was a goddess who was the embodiment of inspiration in some creative field like music or dance. Nowadays it sometimes means a source of inspiration but it can also mean simply to think deeply about some subject or to put forward a speculative suggestion.

Hope that helps.

 

[IanS]

We humans are made of matter and body. But this matter is under the supervision and command of the soul. In modern science it is called "personality" or "I". Therefore, man does not understand anything other than these two categories that is not of matter and soul. This fact is undeniable.

There is zero evidence of any "soul". Again, you will look in vain for any genuine science paper claiming evidence of any soul. If you cannot show any scientific paper with evidence of a "soul", then it is impossible for you to honestly claim that a soul exists.

Mankind, ie Humans, understand millions of things (not just two things that you seem to think ... just matter & "soul"). But everything we have ever encountered in the entire universe, turns out to be composed of energy fields. That is explained in every reserach paper ever published in modern quantum field theory (with mathematical "proofs" to an accuarcy of 10 decimal places!).

How are times and places made? Tell me to learn. Time and space are made of matter and energy. is it right? How are matter and energy made? Did they make each other? Or do they become one with successive changes? Is this the way to create matter or energy? Answer these questions please.

I already explained all of that to you in a previous post – in clear unmistakable terms that even you can understand. And I have since 3 times now had to remind you to go and read that post! Please go back to that post and you will see that it answers all of those questions, exactly!

But then: You said that God will slaughter his deniers. Yes . Exactly...

I did not say that God will "slaughter his deniers", because like everyone else here I do not believe the God exists at all. What counts is actual evidence from everything in science, and that conclusively shows that your God does not exist.

It was YOU who claimed that God will slaughter everyone who refuses to follow Islamic religious faith from the Koran. That was your claim, and I have asked you 6 times now if you agreed that God will be right and doing a good thing to slaughter people who do not believe your religion.

 

[junkshop]

Deleted - weird double post thing occurred.