The supernatural

[MRC_Hans]

Is heydarian saying the fate of the universe is to collapse into a singularity? Hasn't observations shown that the universe is expanding at an increasing rate, and therefore not going to collapse, into what was called the "big crunch"?

Well, he will soon present a new interpretation of where the Quaran says that.

Hans

 

[ynot]

"Supernatural" is a synonym for "Supersilly".

 

[Thor 2]

"Faith" has always been a lie. It doesn't actually work.

It's just a codeword for a mixture of misinformation and post-fact rationalization.

For all the big talk about "their faith" from the God Botherers I have yet to actually meet one for whom "faith" really intellectually sustains them.

From my observation it is the last line of defence for the faithful.

After being confronted with the inadequacies, contradictions, and illogical nature, of all they hold up as TRUTH, the faithful will fall back on their FAITH (Jesus is my friend - nada, nada). They have had the "Born again' experience.

My response to this tosh is to ask: "How do you know the the one you think you have this relationship with, is who you think." I then introduce them to the following video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lubz_souh0

 

[Tassman]

Hello. We share the theme of the soul in general. And we almost agree. Of course, you have not told us your scientific source yet! If possible, tell us on what basis you know this information from the soul. And where is the evidence for your content? But there are a few other questions: What is there of the soul? What is her gender of the soul? Do you believe that the soul is the child of God? Does God have other children? Do you associate partners with God? Is the purpose of the creation of the soul by God only the immortality of the soul? What is the reason for this purpose of God? If all these processes are for the soul. What is the need for human matter and body? If the soul must be incarnated in the bodies one after the other. Do not the bodies or the soul itself suffer? Because they have to endure many difficulties in the interaction between body and soul. What is the purpose of this mechanism? Please explain to clear our minds. Thanks

There is NO interaction between "body and soul" because there is no good reason to believe that souls exist. Furthermore, it is logically incoherent for an immaterial entity such as a soul to interact with a material entity such as our bodies - there is no point of contact or nexus.

 

[IanS]

Is heydarian saying the fate of the universe is to collapse into a singularity? Hasn't observations shown that the universe is expanding at an increasing rate, and therefore not going to collapse, into what was called the "big crunch"?

Well, first of all - heydarian is not by any means qualified to talk about science, and he's just cutting & pasting the scientific claims from the so-called "i'jaz" websites and books (of which there are very many). Though he is never giving the proper due references/citations for where he is copying this from.

Secondly - the idea of any singularity for the universe goes back to the time when Relativity Theory was first being applied to ideas about the origin of the universe, but where quantum effects had amazingly been overlooked ... when you take quantum theory into account for a highly compressed universe close to the point of the Big Bang, there would almost certainly be No singularity ... infinitely small volume and infinitely high density would never be reached because quantum fluctuations would dominate before that stage was reached. So any idea of an actual singularity is probably mistaken anyway.

Thirdly, if he's talking about what happens in the far distant future with possible collapse of the universe, then that is at present all in the realms of speculation without any clear or reliable evidence. So for that, he's just repeating the guessing that other people have engaged in.

So none of his copied/plagiarised pseudo-science is worth anything for any of that.

On the "faith" thing - as they often say on the YouTube ACA phone in shows "faith is what people use/claim, when they don't have genuine evidence ... otherwise, when asked why they believe in their God and the miracles etc. they would cite the evidence (they would not have to lamely fall back on a claim of "faith")".

But heydarain is not an honest person here. As you can see he's refusing to have an honest open unbiased discussion on why he believes God exists (as I offered to him on the previous page). Instead he's continuing to re-produce massive screeds of what he says is “meant” by verses of the Koran, but where he rarely actually quotes the verse from the koran, and where he simply says that the Koran says A, B and C, by which he actually means that he and his i'jaz preachers claim that A, B and C are their interpreted invented meanings for what the simple words of the Koran should have said!

That is – there are NO scientific explanations at all in the Koran, but the i'jaz preaching claims to have re-interpreted the Koran and found that there are quote "over 100 scientific explanations" in those verses of the Koran. They are calling it their “interpretation”, they actually mean it's an invention … they have invented that purely as a religious belief. Of course the reason for doing it is that by claiming that the verses actually talk about scientific things, they thereby believe it to be a series of miraculous revelations and hence a proof of God.

And although many posters here have said that heydarian is in danger of being classed as a heretic by his fellow Muslims for such beliefs, as far as I can tell this idea of “i'jaz”, which means “Miracles” in the Koran (and most specifically “Scientific Miracles”) is actually a very widespread belief in modern Islam. It's just a way of proclaiming their faith by claiming the “scientific verses” as a proof of God.

 

[LongFuzzy]

That is – there are NO scientific explanations at all in the Koran, but the i'jaz preaching claims to have re-interpreted the Koran and found that there are quote "over 100 scientific explanations" in those verses of the Koran. They are calling it their “interpretation”, they actually mean it's an invention … they have invented that purely as a religious belief. Of course the reason for doing it is that by claiming that the verses actually talk about scientific things, they thereby believe it to be a series of miraculous revelations and hence a proof of God.

Well, this is the other problem I see. Everything is post interpreted. We never get any 'scientist will discover ...' There must be an abundance of things scientist would love to know, but we will never get any future findings from any ancient book. It is always after the event that we get the claim that it was predicted, never before.

 

[IanS]

Well, this is the other problem I see. Everything is post interpreted. We never get any 'scientist will discover ...' There must be an abundance of things scientist would love to know, but we will never get any future findings from any ancient book. It is always after the event that we get the claim that it was predicted, never before.

Indeed ... and on that point - here's a draft I wrote some time back, but never posted -

Of course there are lots of videos on YouTube from Islamic preachers claiming all the same things as heydarian … and there are also quite a few videos de-bunking those various claims of “scientific miracles in the Koran”. I don't want to bore people here with links suggesting that people spend their time watching these, but below is a link to an interesting and simple de-bunking of the claim that the Koran tells us how the universe is expanding -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5kiEx14Sm4

One of the things that's interesting in that video is that it explains (a) how no Islamic scholars/preachers were making any such claims before they appeared in a 1976 book by a man named Maurice Bucallie, and (b) no Islamic scholars/preachers ever mentioned any such belief about “scientific miracles in the Koran” until many years after science had discovered all those things and after it became general public knowledge.

 

[malbui]

Well, this is the other problem I see. Everything is post interpreted. We never get any 'scientist will discover ...' There must be an abundance of things scientist would love to know, but we will never get any future findings from any ancient book. It is always after the event that we get the claim that it was predicted, never before.

I mentioned this back in post #1194 of this thread. All it needs is one little snippet from the Quran specifying the nature of some wave or force or particle or superinteliigent shade of the colour blue. Anything at all, I'm not fussy. Just something that we're not currently aware of and can go off and look for.

 

[Myriad]

I mentioned this back in post #1194 of this thread. All it needs is one little snippet from the Quran specifying the nature of some wave or force or particle or superinteliigent shade of the colour blue. Anything at all, I'm not fussy. Just something that we're not currently aware of and can go off and look for.

Yes. Perhaps Heydarian could find for us in the Quran the answer to what the most significant revision of cosmology, from the data produced by the Webb Space Telescope, will be.

Then we can compare that with what is actually observed in the next few years, to judge whether the Quran really predicted it in advance or people were just screwing around with ex post facto interpretations.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Yes. Perhaps Heydarian could find for us in the Quran the answer to what the most significant revision of cosmology, from the data produced by the Webb Space Telescope, will be.

Then we can compare that with what is actually observed in the next few years, to judge whether the Quran really predicted it in advance or people were just screwing around with ex post facto interpretations.

However, we already know the answer to that.

Hans

 

[heydarian saeed]

That contradicts the Quran because there was no mud anywhere in the early universe.

Yes. Note: The evolution of living things and humans has begun since the creation of matter. The Qur'an is beyond science.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Whether or not the Koran confirms that Man evolved from Apes, I am asking YOU if you accept the whole of all established science which shows beyond all credible doubt that Man certainly did evolve from earlier apes … are you disputing all of published evolutionary science?

If YOU (or your Koran) dispute that Man evolved from earlier apes (Man/homo-sapiens IS an Ape by the way! … You are an Ape!) then you must show where you have published your discovery in a genuine science research journal … because so far, since the time of Darwin, probably around 250,000 such papers have been published and all of them agree, and indeed show, that Man (i.e. modern-form Homo-sapiens) definitely did evolve from earlier apes around 250,000 years ago …

… So … in which real science journal did you publish your research showing that all of science is wrong?

If you have never published any such paper, then your claim is 100% dead-in-the-water … if you cannot get your claim published then your claim is outright rejected as not fit for belief by educated people.






Depending what you mean by “matter”, that actualy came into being at the instant of the Big Bang 13.8billion years ago, which is about 9 billion years before the planet Earth even existed!

If by “matter” you mean things like atoms and molecules and interstellar dust etc., then again those things had formed before the Earth even formed!

So how could fully formed Humans have evolved into existence on Earth before the Earth even existed?

You do not need to answer that last question, because the answer is that your claim is 100% uneducated nonsense.

Though even if you don't like me making that last remark, then it's also the case that all of science has shown with what are now literally millions of research papers that Humans did not even exist at all for at least the first 4 billion years of planet Earth's existence … so unless you can publish a real paper in a real science journal showing how all of science is wrong, then I am afraid it is unarguably YOU who is wrong!

Hello. We do not challenge science. Although the natural sciences are changing. And this is a big challenge in itself. But the Qur'an is beyond science. These words of mine are none of my own. It is the words of the Quran. I only translate up to date. The claim is the Qur'an itself. And that's absolutely right. These are the claims of God. Not an ordinary person. God has made these claims. Is there anyone who denies God's claim? not at all.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Many problems, all of which have been explained to you at length.

Hello. I like your honesty. You speak honestly. You speak well. I wish you pay a little more attention to your inner nature. This is just a friendly offer. Thanks.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Continue message 2202 - Continue the discussion of "human evolution" :
Note again verse 10 of Sura 41:" And in "Rawasi", the outer crust of the earth, we planned the food resources in the amount required by the living beings in four periods. And we put. "
Organic food is organically reproducible. Professor Kaplan, the famous German biologist, gave birth to the first proliferative cell without a nucleus, known as a probioner. Has been divided into four periods. This cell is the first sperm of life. The Qur'an says: " The basis of the life of all beings, including man, has begun from this sperm. And it was according to the previous plan."
The Four Periods of Organic Food - These four periods, according to Professor Kaplan's theory, are as follows:
1- Non-biological production of basic and organic molecules such as methane and ammonia and to some extent hydrogen sulfide to make proteins and nucleic acids and simple sugars.
2- Creating chain compounds or polymerization of molecules created in the first period.
3- Bonding of polymerized molecules to each other and the formation of macromolecules and the formation of organic molecular structure that were covered by the membrane. As the cornerstone of probiotics (the cornerstone of human life and creation is made of dried mud and black mud deposited in this period) the codes of life as long chain macromolecules.
4. The formation of probiotics, which are considered to be the first reproducible organic matter. (Creation of reproducible food used by living organisms that began with bacteria.)
...

 

[heydarian saeed]

... "A strange and miraculous accident caused the probiotics," said Professor Kaplan and others.
And the Qur'an says: "With the plan compiled by the Almighty Creator and as the basis of the creation of man from life was created. And the purpose of the creation of life was the creation of man."
There are two important points made by Oparin, the founder of the discussion of the creation of life as the trump card of the materialist idea.
First: Life is made of inanimate matter. And this substance has been in nature. And the Qur'an says: We created man from inanimate matter. That is, from soil and mud. And it is the greatness of God Almighty that can create life from inanimate matter. Which biologists are unable to comprehend.
Second story: Oparin, who is proud, took it from Engels. And he says: Life must continue the process of evolution. And it is not possible to create it all at once. The Qur'an says. The beginning of human creation is from mud and its continuation is from the formation of food sources in the long process of life.
"Accident in the origin of early life is so impossible that it looks like a miracle," said Professor Manfred Eigen, Nobel laureate in chemistry and president of the Max Planck Institute in G ttingen, Germany. The simple French biologist Jacques Monod says that the simplest form of life primordial cell is comparable to a very complex mechanism.
And the creation of such a molecule by chance is equal to zero. Professor Kaplan, who believes that the process of life is accidental, also says that the coefficient and probability of this accident can be one in the whole universe. In order to better understand the above, we must travel to the original earth. And analyze the conditions that prevailed at that time in mind.
...

 

[heydarian saeed]

... Creation and evolution are two key words in the evolution of the Qur'an:
Creation and evolution are two key words in the evolution of the Qur'an.
Verses 14 of Sura 71. Meaning: "God created you in various stages and forms." The material structure of man is made up of chemical elements. And for the creation of man, these elements must first be created. This issue is considered by the Qur'an. In fact, contrary to the opinion of biologists who believe in the beginning of life on Earth.
The creation of life in the Qur'an is related to the first expansion of the universe. That is, when matter is created. Matter has not been created yet and the universe wants to expand from the stage of fog Bang. And the creation of matter begins with the opening of the universe.
God tells us in the words of Abraham in verses 50 and 51 of Sura 17:" I started your creation from the expansion of the universe.
Meaning: "If you are made of stone or iron or anything higher than you think. They say: Who will recreate us? Say, 'Who created you from the expansion of the universe. Shake your head in anger.' "And (angrily) they say, 'When is it? "
Translators mean "opening up" to create. This is a beautiful scientific term with its own meaning. Creation has not yet taken place in the material world. In verse 22 of Sura 36, Ibrahim says: Why do not I worship the One who opened me from the beginning of the expansion of the universe? Each word has its own meaning. This is the first stage of human evolution.
Physicists have written in some of their articles: We are actually made of cosmic gas and dust. And the Qur'an says: No. Before the expansion of the universe. Prophet Ibrahim says: I was before the expansion of the universe. verses 22 of Sura 36. Meaning: "God, you have opened me and we will return to you." The Qur'an speaks to us beyond knowledge. The particles of human existence are made up of elementary particles.
How long do these stages of evolution continue? Verse 7 of Sura 11 says: "When God created the universe, He had planned the creation of water in advance. God's throne is the management of the creation of the universe. It was on the water. To test you towards your good deeds."
The purpose of this program is to create the human test. To progress. And reach a high position.
And good deeds are not our only deeds and behavior. In another verse, he says, "I created all the adornment of the earth, which is its life. For the good deeds of man." Therefore, good deeds are the attainment of the righteous species in the process of evolution.
Of course, this debate is still going on. But I think in response to his message 2161, I have said the complete and necessary material and other friends in the field of the Qur'an's view of "human evolution."
"Man did not evolve into an ape. He evolved into a single-celled eukaryote. Evolved human are not apes. human is an evolved single-celled eukaryote. And the Qur'an mentions all the stages of its evolution.

 

[abaddon]

Yes. Note: The evolution of living things and humans has begun since the creation of matter. The Qur'an is beyond science.

The Qur'an is a mere load of superstitious nonsense.

 

[heydarian saeed]

However, we already know the answer to that.

Hans

Hello to both of you. I will say just one example of the supreme science and technology of God that has been said in the Qur'an: For advanced Advanced teleportation technology, we have 4 events in the Qur'an. With teleportation technology, God has moved a human twice twice, approximately 1,200 kilometers in just one second. And with the same technology, he has raised the dead twice. And with the same technology, he will recreate and revive all human beings in the hereafter. Science is unable to understand this. But science has only proved it. Read my article on proof by Hawking Master Roger Penrose in previous posts.
I have the address of the relevant verses and chapters. If you want ...

 

[heydarian saeed]

The Qur'an is a mere load of superstitious nonsense.

Of course in your mind ....

 

[abaddon]

Of course in your mind ....

Nope. In yours as well. Try reading what you yourself wrote.

For example...
"These words of mine are none of my own."

Your claim is that your words are not your words. That's absurd.

"It is the words of the Quran. I only translate up to date."

Your claim is that you are altering the koran.

And it goes on and on. You cannot even agree with yourself.