The stupid explodes: obesity now a disability

One question Blutoski, I can understand how satiety is not sufficient to prevent overeating; but I gather that stomach reduction surgery is used to treat morbidly obese patients. Does this imply that a lack of satiety is a strong hindrance to losing weight?

Or is that too simplistic.
 
Heard about this on the radio yesterday. New paper from Georgia State found that gut bacteria are being disrupted by the use of emulsifiers in processed food, in turn leading the inflammation that promotes insulin resistance in mice (among other things) - the idea being that the metabolic syndrome impacts on people's ability to feel satiated from food and could be in part driving the obesity epidemic.

Interview with the lead author:

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...food-additive-linked-to-heart-disease/6263256

Press release from GSU

http://www.newswise.com/articles/wi...obesity-and-metabolic-syndrome-research-shows

And the abstract from Nature:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature14232.html

But will it be enough to spawn another diet fad? That's the critical question - how many best selling books can we get out of this preliminary research? Dr. Oz's producers are keen to know.
 
But will it be enough to spawn another diet fad? That's the critical question - how many best selling books can we get out of this preliminary research? Dr. Oz's producers are keen to know.

You're really challenged by the notion the notion that obesity might not just be a simple matter of moral failure, aren't you?

And considering the research identifies food additives as the culprit in their findings then the only "fad" it would spawn would be to either pressure food manufacturers to remove such additives (unlikely) or (more likely) encourage consumers to consume less processed foods and more naturally prepared foods. If that's you're idea of a "fad" diet then, well, I dunno...
 
Last edited:
One question Blutoski, I can understand how satiety is not sufficient to prevent overeating;

In my opinion he has failed to show any logical explanation for why different macronutriant composition of foods effect satiety, but don't have any effect on someones ability to stick to a diet. To me this is as ridiculous as suggesting that a drug addicts ability to quit taking the drug is not effected by their cravings for the drug. Think of it this way, we fully accept if you take appetite suppressants people will eat less or not at all (such as with methamphetamine), and therefore lose weight. If it is indeed all about the calories and there is no hormonal component at all this means all obese patients need to do to lose weight is to eat less calories. As you pointed out surgical solutions to obesity such as gastric bands work because they also reduce appetite. But when it comes to the macronutriant composition of the foods on someone's diet, some of which effect satiety in different ways, we are to imagine that this has no effect on someone ability to eat less? So it helps if it's an appetite suppressant and then it will help you lose weight, but if a similar effect can be achieved by eating more (for example) high fibre/low GI foods or low carb/high fat, that doesn't?

Blutoski is extrapolating from some studies that he says show that long-term people cant stick to the diets irrespective of what sort of diet they are on. Instead of considering either there must be problems in the methodology, such as lack of control over the participants diet and reliance on self reporting accuracy, or that his conclusion moves outside the scope of what the study can show, he concludes that the ability to be satiated is irrelevant

So we cut patients stomachs up so they become "satiated" with virtually nothing inside their stomach precisely because we know that if we do that it will enable them to much more easily stick to the diet plan. Does the patient eat 5 hamburgers and 3 large pizzas a day? Well now they physically can't eat more than a single slice of pizza before they are literally full, ergo we know they will lose weight. This is literally the entire logic behind the surgery. We can accept that eating less calories causes weight loss, and so we accept that taking drugs or surgery that suppress your appetite makes people lose weight because they eat less. Why then would anyone think it makes sense to say that a diet that is highly satiating vs a diet that is not, has no bearing on whether someone will be able to stick to it or not? Blutoski said he accepts different foods are more satiating than others, so that is not even disputed. How is it possible to hold these two ideas in ones head at the same time? If a heroin addict is trying to quit, does it make sense to think that his cravings have no bearing on his ability to stop?

Blutoski said that Wansink did not study only obese patients in his study on overeating, instead he had various people to represent a cross section of society. To me this is like wanting to know if smoking is addictive and having participants who have never even smoked before. Getting addicted to smoking is usually something you have to work up to, and most people have a bad reaction the first time. So in our hypothetical study we'll have a number of people who felt very nauseous and didn't want any more, and we'll have others who just have no problem having one and stopping and concluding that therefore smoking is not adductive. The point is obese patients are not the same as regular people. If Taubes is right they have a metabolic disorder the others do not, but even if that is not true and it really is only about how many calories one consumes, we already know that obese patients have a problem knowing how to stop eating. How can we make conclusions about obese patients psychology if the participants in the study are not obese patients? The ones who are not obese will be watering down the results. We already know those who are obese behave differently, that is why they are obese. If we want to know about the psychology of food consumption in those who are obese it makes absolutely no sense at all to make conclusions about their behavior by looking at those of below or average weight. They have no problems with portion control and eating only one bowl, otherwise they probably would be overweight as well.

The point I am taking a while to get around to is that to me it seems the conclusions Blutoski is making here not only do not follow, but they don't make any sense.
 
Last edited:
You're really challenged by the notion the notion that obesity might not just be a simple matter of moral failure, aren't you?

Not at all.

And considering the research identifies food additives as the culprit in their findings then the only "fad" it would spawn would be to either pressure food manufacturers to remove such additives (unlikely) or (more likely) encourage consumers to consume less processed foods and more naturally prepared foods. If that's you're idea of a "fad" diet then, well, I dunno...

I've only read the abstract of the paper, but I don't think it "identifies food additives as the culprit." Wasn't the language more like, "suggests" and uses a mouse model instead of human beings?

Based on what I've read, I would very much call this "preliminary research" and I think the authors would agree. Do you think it is conclusive?

And yes, I do think it will spawn faddish behavior. In the same way that good science is spun, and has been spun, to mislead the marketplace. Do I need to dig up an example of good science being seen by marketers (and their customers) as more than it really is?
 
The point I am taking a while to get around to is that to me it seems the conclusions Blutoski is making here not only do not follow, but they don't make any sense.

You certainly seem to be the only one in that position, so I wouldn't get too worried about it.
 
I'll throw something else to chew on into the pot: There isn't any proven link of Homosexuality to genes either. But maybe it is just a satiety thing too? CICO, GI-GO? But it's not a choice, and maybe neither is obesity?

And yeah, fat gays must have a real problem, but we don't know what it is yet. ;)
 
The point I am taking a while to get around to is that to me it seems the conclusions Blutoski is making here not only do not follow, but they don't make any sense.
You certainly seem to be the only one in that position, so I wouldn't get too worried about it.

It means one of two things:

1. He failed to read your post through sheer laziness.
2. He read your post, but cannot counter it with a logical argument.

No,

Blutoski's referred to studies, which are available for a quick googling

http://mindlesseating.org/about.php looks to be a good place to start.

Logic doesn't need to come into it, when plausible explanations have been tested and found not to work in practice.

Posts below spoilered for brevity.

He has addressed the questions.

False dichotomy. It's true, and simultaneously probably irrelevant. There is an entire genre of studies on satiety, and some diets such as Volumetrics are attempting to leverage the physiological elements.

The main problem is that we're assuming people eat when they're hungry and stop eating when they've achieved satiety. This is demonstrably false, and thus the impact of satiety strategies is very slight.

Volumetrics has probably the lowest dropout rate of the major diet strategies, but it's still something like <5% retention after 2 years. Still better retention than LC, but the difference is so small that I would say the strategy cannot be successful without addressing other factors.

Specifically, I recommend reading Wansink's published research on environmental influences on satiety. Did you know, for example, that the number of people at the table has over ten times greater influence on recognition of satiety than the macronutrient ratios?





Possibly, depends on environmental distractions (TV, other diners, music volume), how fast you eat it, colour, odour, variety... the stickiness of satiety is often rendered irrelevant by the environment later. eg: a person may be satiated at breakfast, but if they're sitting within sight of a donut when they walk into work, they will eat it. But if the donut is out of sight they won't seek it out. These factors seem to overwhelm simple physiological satiety in the real world.

So, this is why I regard a lot of that type of research as academically interesting and possibly useful in the overall picture, but of little practical application until environmental factors are under control.






Outsiders decreeing that the experts don't know how to do research is certainly part of a 'skeptical checklist' for evaluating credibility of scientific claims. It's not proof of a quack, but it's evidence of a quack. A famous example is chiropractors saying that scientific double-blind experiments for Applied Kinesiology must be 'doing it wrong' because they don't get the results chiropractors a priori 'know' are correct.

I thought that last point from Wansink's research deserved a graphic aid... I'm trying a monospaced font for this, so may do some cycles of "edit" button, and it's pretty crude...

Code:
+--------+---------------------------------------------------+----------+
| HUNGRY |  COULD EAT (energy ->|<- neutral) STILL COULD EAT | SATIATED |
|        |                                                   |          |
|        |      BUSINESS FOCUSSING MARKETING RESEARCH HERE   |          |
+--------+---------------------------------------------------+----------+

The takeaway is that there's no instant when a person becomes satiated and can't eat anymore. We unconsciously decide we have 'eaten enough' when we interpret some external cue, such as the plate is cleared, the bag is empty, the glass or bottle is empty, the last person at the table is finished their plate. That sort of thing. Also speed of eating. It takes 20 minutes to even register satiety. Fast food and 'grab and go' home meals are consumed before we can even tell, so macronutrient composition is not a factor during those meals, although it does have implications later in the day.
So, for example, this is why registered dieticians feel there is a benefit to creating maximum sizes for children's meals in fast food restaurants, and maximum sizes for beverage containers. People generally consider the portion finished when the container is empty, so smaller containers lead to less consumption.

This is the obesogenic environment model. It's what industry has been using to increase our consumption of food product. I think the evidence is that it's adequate to explain the root cause for the majority of the increase in obesity rates during the last few generations. The same way that women went from a fraction of smokers to the majority of smokers in a generation: they responded to an environment shaped to create that outcome. Nothing special about the cigarette formulations in and of themselves.




Those are good questions. "Why?" The answer is because satiety doesn't seem to have that big an influence when we do studies. Why? There are many theories, but a great model is that satiety is a continuum, rather than a binary cutoff, and can be heavily influenced by other factors in our environment.

Are you familiar with Wansink's work? His job was to create environments that manipulate the points where people feel hungry, full, and the edges of that very wide zone inbetween called 'could still eat a little more'.

The Ig Nobels are also skep-friendly, and he won an Ig Nobel in Nutrition for his 'bottomless soup bowl' experimental protocol eight years ago, although it's important to understand his research in satiety started in the 1980s.

The book review he posted a link to was also interesting

And then there are simple non-truths. At one point Taubes states,
"You don't get fat because your metabolism slows, your metabolism slows because you're getting fat."
which even I know is wrong

So how does Taubes' explain the impact of carbs on weight? Amazingly he states,
"We know the laws of physics have nothing to do with it."

There is no way that is correct.

Another Taubes quote from this link:

"you can't eat carbs, you can basically exercise as much gluttony as you want as long you're eating fat and protein"

Again - that's just silly.

As Blutoski said - his ideas seem very cultish.
 
Last edited:
No,

Blutoski's referred to studies, which are available for a quick googling

He has not given an explanation for how we can hold the view that fat, low GI foods, or high fiber foods are more satiating than refined carbs like sugar, but that someone's appetite and cravings will have no effect on someone's ability to stick to a diet. We already know appetite suppressing drugs can cause weight loss because people eat less. The most dramatic weight loss treatment is physically reducing someones appetite with surgery by restricting or cutting away their stomach. For certain it is harder to stick to a diet if you are surrounded by people eating badly, but in the same way it is hard to quit taking heroin if you are surrounded by heroin addicts in your personal life. It is still asinine to suggest that it is just as difficult for someone to stop taking those drugs if you have significantly reduced their cravings for it. We perform surgeries like gastric bypass precisely on the logic that this will dramatically increase their satiety with very little food, if someones appetite and ability to feel satiated had no effect, why on earth would we be performing such invasive risky surgeries?

I talked about studies he referred to. They did not study the behavior of obese people. He told me only 30% of those studied were technically obese and only 30% technically overweight. Like I said this is like studying whether smoking is addictive and only 30% of your study participants are smoking every day and where 40% aren't smokers at all. You're going to get an answer that smoking is vastly less addictive than it is because those non-smokers that choke and get sick when they have a cigarette will water down the results. Seriously if you gave someone cigarettes that have never had it before and checked their response you'd probably conclude that it was the opposite of addictive. Taubes says the obese have an metabolic hormonal disorder which causes their body to be inefficient at storing fat, while also increasing their appetite which feeds the problem more. Even if you don't agree or even if that is wrong, the fact remains that those who are addicted to smoking or other drugs are psychologically and psychically different from those who are not, likewise we know obese people are different psychologically and psychically than the lean population the only question is in what sense. If they had 100% heavily obese patients in the study, would the results have been the same or different? We don't know since that study doesn't seem to have been done, and even if it had been that doesn't necessarily mean we can make as wide reaching conclusions with the results that Blutoski is.

Another Taubes quote from this link:

Again - that's just silly.

As Blutoski said - his ideas seem very cultish.

You arent saying why it is silly so I assume you think it is silly for the same reason those quoting him say it is. These people take him out of context and make him out to be saying things he isn't. You are just taking their word for it that he meant what they say he meant. I am reading the book they pulled these quotes from right now and so I know they are misrepresenting him, and I have recently watched various presentations he has given. It boggles my mind how any intelligent person can read or watch what he has to say and somehow honestly interpret him this way.

Taubes never said that calories do not matter at all or that the laws of physics do not apply. We have already been over this. What Taubes is saying is the idea that you took in more calories than your expended tells you next to nothing about why someone got fat. If you wanted to know why Bill Gates is rich saying he earned more money than he spent would get you laughed out of the room. Of course he earned more than he spent but that is essentially meaningless. If you wanted to know why a room is crowded and someone told you more people entered than left, this again is technically correct, but tells you nothing about why the room is crowed. Maybe a famous person showed up for an event, maybe there was a party, maybe there was free food and drink, maybe there were bouncers on the doors pulling people inside.

Taubes says that you can be "gluttonous" on fat on a very low carb diet and this is represented as him saying you can keep consuming as many calories as possible and it won't affect your weight. What he actually was referring to is the satiating ability of a high fat low carb diet and that you will be able to eat as much as you feel like and that you will naturally stop when you are full without that sense of deprivation you typically have on low fat diets. Even if it turned out that high fat low carb diets were just as satiating as high carb low fat diets, it is still false to represent what he said this way.

If Taubes is wrong then fine, but at least criticise what he is actually saying and not such basic misrepresentations, otherwise it does make it seem like you feel you have to. The word strawmen is so overused I get tired of seeing the word, but that is what we are talking about here.
 
Last edited:
Another Taubes quote from this link:

Oh and btw, as with the Freedhof link it doesn't fit what Blutoski is claiming. (In the case of Freedhof's article, he contradicts Harriet Hall's criticism of Taubes also linked by Blutoski.) If you the read blog above, while the person obviously does not agree with Taubes they too recognise the importance of satiety and how different diet's actually do have different success rates. That doesn't mean I agree with this persons reasoning but it definitely doesn't match what Blutoski is saying either, who is saying that it doesn't matter what diet you are on or what the macronutrient composition of the diet is. Instead, he says this has no bearing on how successful or unsuccessful someone's ability to lose weight will be. The take home message you'd get from Blutoski is that no studies show the macronutriant composition of foods on a diet show different success rates, but you'd be wrong. The only things that tie these people that keep being linked to and what Blutoski is saying together is that they don't agree with Taubes, but it seems kind of silly to keep linking to people to back you up when they don't, and even disagree with each other. I recommend you fully read this article by Taubes and then consider how it matches up with the representation you have read from his critics.
 
Last edited:
No,

Blutoski's referred to studies, which are available for a quick googling

http://mindlesseating.org/about.php looks to be a good place to start.

Logic doesn't need to come into it, when plausible explanations have been tested and found not to work in practice.

Posts below spoilered for brevity.

He has addressed the questions.










The book review he posted a link to was also interesting

which even I know is wrong



There is no way that is correct.

Another Taubes quote from this link:



Again - that's just silly.

As Blutoski said - his ideas seem very cultish.

The problem is, not the sources that Blutoski is giving. Nor even his explanations of things. The problem is, Blutoski is not addressing edx's posts. It's mostly strawmen, as they say. EDx is saying that not all foods, and therefore, not all calories are created equal, for the simple fact that you can drink 1500 calories worth of soda, and still feel hungry and want to eat more. Vs. eating 1500 calories of fruits, vegetables, and some skinless chicken. (Not to mention, that one diet is FAR more nourishing for you than the other.)

Or rather, to put it another way, it's not strictly how many calories on eats in order to maintain a healthy weight and lifestlye. It's also the amount of nutrients and the quality of the foods themselves that also matters.
 
Last edited:
One example he uses is how to explain how Bill Gates got rich we might say that he earned more money than he spent. While this is a factually true statement it tells us nothing meaningful about how Gates became a billionaire.

Of course, this is very much a Microsoft style of explanation.
 
Meanwhile, as obesity is labelled as a disability in one part of the world, others deem obesity sufficient reason to remove children from their parents' care.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11426090

So NZ authorities are removing kids whose parents are wilfully negligent in inflicting obesity? Cool. But if a parent was similarly wilfully negligent and caused a disability in their child - let's just say for argument's sake it involved giving the child copious amounts of alcohol that resulted in brain damage - would that child be any less disabled by the condition because it resulted from parental abuse?

If yes, then.. Wow.

If no, well... not entirely sure exactly what the point you're trying to make is :confused:
 
Last edited:
So NZ authorities are removing kids whose parents are wilfully negligent in inflicting obesity? Cool. But if a parent was similarly wilfully negligent and caused a disability in their child - let's just say for argument's sake it involved giving the child copious amounts of alcohol that resulted in brain damage - would that child be any less disabled by the condition because it resulted from parental abuse?

If yes, then.. Wow.

If no, well... not entirely sure exactly what the point you're trying to make is :confused:

Certainly not the one you seem to be twisting about.

If a kid is made obese by its parents to the point of disability, it's not even slightly self-inflicted. That is the diametric opposite of a person who feeds their face until they're disabled.

The point I'm making is that while a handful of obesity enablers and supporters are crying about people's rights to eat themselves into a grave paid for by others, in the real world, obesity is a life-threatening condition that government agencies are finally seeing as child abuse.

If it's child abuse on that side, then it's self-abuse when they grow up and turn themselves into human balloons.
 
Certainly not the one you seem to be twisting about.

If a kid is made obese by its parents to the point of disability, it's not even slightly self-inflicted. That is the diametric opposite of a person who feeds their face until they're disabled.

The point I'm making is that while a handful of obesity enablers and supporters are crying about people's rights to eat themselves into a grave paid for by others, in the real world, obesity is a life-threatening condition that government agencies are finally seeing as child abuse.

If it's child abuse on that side, then it's self-abuse when they grow up and turn themselves into human balloons.

Must be a pretty small handful, small enough not to be represented by anyone who has posted in this thread.
 
Pleased to hear it. Defending stupidity like that while worrying about bigfoot and psychics would be a silly look for a skeptics' forum.
 

Back
Top Bottom