Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[junkshop]

Vixen, why are you being so exceptionally rude and ignoring me?

That reminds me...

Vixen, I ask again (and I realise this is probably a fool's errand, but I am nothing if not annoyingly persistent*):

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53172928635_4dc8d83e17_z.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53172694184_96194853b5_z.jpg[/qimg]

Where did you get these images from?

What measures did you take to verify their authenticity?

_{*when the mood takes me, at least. I can't claim to be consistent in my persistence.}

 

[Andy_Ross]

Here's the thing. This is a busy passenger ferry. Usual crew and staff. The EPIRBS were affixed one each side of the bridge in a float-free bracket with a Hydrostatic Release Unit. As one might expect with a big ship carrying up to 1,500 people, regular standard inspections are carried out. MV Estonia had her buoys inspected as being in full working order by the ships electricians and there is a log of it. The HRU unit is triggered when immersed in up to 4m of water, hence one on either side of the ship depending on which side it capsizes. To avoid the possibility of a false alarm being sent (for example hooligans or for battery saving) they are switched off if in port for a longer period than a few days, for maintenance or whatever. The fact the free float automatic buoys did not emit a signal, despite being apparent immerse, and the Rockwater divers retrieved one of the HRU's from the empty bracket cage, suggesting that either someone removed them manually and switched them off or the electrician/radiographer who inspected them didn't do his job, to check they were active and ready to activate in an emergency, which seems unlikely.

Everything you wrote in that post is stuff you invented.

You haven't a clu what you are saying, it's just random **** you invented.

 

[ferd burfle]

That reminds me...

Vixen, I ask again (and I realise this is probably a fool's errand, but I am nothing if not annoyingly persistent*):




_{*when the mood takes me, at least. I can't claim to be consistent in my persistence.}

I haven’t followed the discussion of this particular issue so possibly the request for the images source is meant more rhetorically than literally. Reverse image search yielded nothing, but a search with a verbatim fragment of the text yielded this:

https://heiwaco.tripod.com/epunkt141.htm

Apologies if the source was known and the request was rhetorical.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The J.A.I.C. never released it as it was solely focused on the car deck and the bow visor.

HS 28.1.1995

Signal could not be received because they were manually activated buoys that hadn't been activated. When they were they transmitted at full power and the signal was received as it should be.

 

[Andy_Ross]

They are battery operated, so perhaps to save battery. Maybe they were switched off when docked at land for the same reason one might turn off the lights.

They are always switched off unless activated by turning them on. Or, in the case of models that have immersion sensors, they are immersed in water.
There isn't a switch to turn off to store them and save the battery because they aren't using the battery.
They have a fixed life after which they are returned to the manufacturer to have the battery replaced.

 

[JayUtah]

Apologies if the source was known and the request was rhetorical.

Well, it was known to many of us and the request was indeed rhetorical. Vixen doesn't want to reveal that her source for some of her claims is the crackpot Anders Björkmann. On the one hand she says he's a perfectly reliable source on the history of MS Estonia, but on the other hand she tries to hide his involvement in her arguments.

 

[Axxman300]

Massive elephant in the room? You know, the 21m x 5m gash in the hull...?


That was a bit of an unfortunate oversight, eh? Rather like describing 9/11 as a minor cooking incident in the kitchen where the tea boy was making tea. Nothing to see here! Just a faulty cable on the kettle that was of poor design and hadn't been maintained properly. Plus, the weather was very bad.

The gash in the hull was caused by impact with the rocky bottom. This is obvious to anyone looking at the footage. This gash was not visible in 1994/1995 as the hull was laying at such an angle that it was impossible to get the large DSRVs of the day underneath to view it. We've discussed this. You have repeatedly posted links to this fact and posted outline diagrams explaining this fact.

The hole(s) in Titanic's hull are buried in the mud, leaving researchers with only the testimony of the crew and passengers as to the location, and extent of the damage. But no one can claim anything other than a collision with an iceberg is to blame for the sinking. You can't survey what you cannot see. You can collect all the data possible to make an accurate assessment of the cause of an accident.

The Estonia has rolled on the slope, and that damage is now visible. This is time + gravity + currents, not some silly conspiracy to hide the truth. Had they raised Estonia back in 1994 they would have seen the gash and understood it was impact with the rocky sea floor. There is no mystery here, no elephant in the room...it left through the wide-open bow ramp...

 

[Reformed Offlian]

I haven’t followed the discussion of this particular issue so possibly the request for the images source is meant more rhetorically than literally. Reverse image search yielded nothing, but a search with a verbatim fragment of the text yielded this:

https://heiwaco.tripod.com/epunkt141.htm

Apologies if the source was known and the request was rhetorical.

The source was known. the request was rhetorical for some, but not for others. No apologies are needed. It was already obvious that Vixen was determined to conceal her reliance on crackpot sources.

 

[ferd burfle]

Thanks for clarifying guys. I’ll look further back in the future..

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Well, it was known to many of us and the request was indeed rhetorical. Vixen doesn't want to reveal that her source for some of her claims is the crackpot Anders Björkmann. On the one hand she says he's a perfectly reliable source on the history of MS Estonia, but on the other hand she tries to hide his involvement in her arguments.

She is especially at pains to conceal his involvement in arguments that don't specifically involve ship engineering, as this one doesn't. She's been trying to work the whole "I know he's generally a loon, but at least he knows his ships!" thing for about two years now. But here we see her cribbing from material of his that has nothing to do with engineering.

Of course, he's just as much of a loon and liar when it comes to ship engineering, but Vixen hasn't pretended to concede that yet.

 

[JayUtah]

She's been trying to work the whole "I know he's generally a loon, but at least he knows his ships!" thing for about two years now. But here we see her cribbing from material of his that has nothing to do with engineering.

She has also lately claimed that Björkmann should be considered an authority on the history of the accident, ostensibly since he was one of the first to write publicly about it.

Of course, he's just as much of a loon and liar when it comes to ship engineering, but Vixen hasn't pretended to concede that yet.

He's just a loon and a liar. I have yet to find any subject upon which he hasn't simply lied, including his own history. He is thoroughly unreliable, and Vixen knows we don't accept him as an authority.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

She has also lately claimed that Björkmann should be considered an authority on the history of the accident, ostensibly since he was one of the first to write publicly about it.

Ouch. I missed that. That's sooo much worse.

 

[JayUtah]

Ouch. I missed that. That's sooo much worse.

I guess it depends on how you want to interpret this paragraph. I interpreted each affirmative claim as separate.

As for Anders Bjorkman, he's eccentric, but he is Swedish, has been following the Estonia story closely from the start. He is a masters in ship architecture, studied at a prestigious naval academy.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Thanks for clarifying guys.

No problem!

I’ll look further back in the future..

What an interesting turn of phrase.

 

[Mojo]

From the expert who presented to the JAIC and is a marine and navy communications supplier (as of the time of the accident and beyond).

On 27 January 1995, navigation expert Asser Koivisto presented in Helsinki his investigation of Estonia's EPIRB buoys: radio buoys on the command bridge which, in floating mode, are supposed to start transmitting a precise GPS position and trigger an international high alert.

According to Koivisto, the emergency buoys were tested and serviced in Stockholm a week before the disaster, but the crew had forgotten to put the buoys in the on position again. Buoys are usually turned off during land transport, to avoid false major alarms.

<snip>

The emergency traffic did not work very well on the night of the accident. There was poor audibility due to an interfering radio transmitter nearby.

<snip>

Working EPIRB buoys could have contributed to more people surviving. The rescue ships had dared to keep a higher speed and arrived faster at the scene of the accident. The lifeguards [buoys] could previously have been given a clear position.

https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-1440209

This is the same attribution of sources error which haunts this thread. No, the expert is not the author of that. That was written by a newspaper journalist, seemingly confused by the expert's presentation.

If an expert had written it, it would have made sense.

You can see the direct quote here from the guy himself.

https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-1440209

Vixen, the text you quoted does not appear at that link. Please can you quote the direct quote so we can locate the relevant text?

 

[Here_to_learn]

Since we have some selective quoting/translations from this: https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-1440209, I thought I could add some more:

I dag är inte bara nödbojarna spårlöst försvunna. Också Asser Koivistos rapport har gått upp i rök. Spotlight har letat i Tallinn, Kotka, Helsingfors, Åbo och Stockholm.

Nu, 25 år senare, hänvisar Koivisto till ett sekretessavtal och avböjer via sin hustru en intervju. Ingen annan av Estoniautredningens experter har hänvisat till någon tystnadsplikt.

Today, not only the emergency buoys have disappeared without a trace. Asser Koivisto's report has also gone up in smoke. Spotlight has searched in Tallinn, Kotka, Helsinki, Turku and Stockholm.

Now, 25 years later, Koivisto refers to a confidentiality agreement and declines an interview via his wife. None of the experts of the Estonia investigation have referred to any confidentiality requirement.

Karppinen säger också att "av alla tiotusen osanningar om Estonia är Asser Koivistos sekretessavtal en helt ny".

Karppinen also says that "of all the ten thousand untruths about Estonia, Asser Koivisto's confidentiality agreement is a brand new one".

På Centralkriminalpolisen i Helsingfors finns 50 lådor osorterat Estoniamaterial; vittnesförhör och protokoll med olika grader av sekretess. Efter 40 år tillfaller de Riksarkivet. Först då blir det materialet tillgängligt för forskare och journalister.

At the Central Criminal Police in Helsinki there are 50 boxes of unsorted Estonia material; witness interviews and protocols with varying degrees of confidentiality. After 40 years, they belong to the National Archives. Only then will the material become available to researchers and journalists.

.
So while Sweden have scanned the material and made it available, Finland has not.

Sabotageteorins främsta förespråkare är den tyska dokumentaristen Jutta Rabe. Hon menar att ryska militärindustriella kretsar sänkte Estonia för att hindra att militär toppteknologi smugglades via Sverige till USA.

I den nyaste upplagan av Die Estonia (2019) presenterar hon ett nytt vittne, gränsvakten Janno J, som säger sig ha sett fyra ryska militärlastbilar köra ombord sist av alla på Estonia inför den sista resan.

[...]

Triathleten Ain-Alar Juhanson, som förlorade tre idrottskamrater på Estonia, kan bestämt avfärda Rabes nya vittnesuppgifter.

- Vi körde sist ombord med vår skåpbil. Vi tittade noga omkring oss på bildäck, eftersom som ledaren Jaan olovligt skulle sova i bilen. Han hade ingen hyttplats. Dessutom ville han vakta våra dyrbara cyklar. Vi såg absolut inga beväpnade vakter och inga militära fordon någonstans.

The main proponent of the sabotage theory is the German documentarian Jutta Rabe. She believes that Russian military-industrial circles sank Estonia to prevent top military technology from being smuggled via Sweden to the United States.

In the newest edition of Die Estonia (2019), she introduces a new witness, border guard Janno J, who claims to have seen four Russian military trucks drive aboard last of all in Estonia for the final journey.

[...]

The triathlete Ain-Alar Juhanson, who lost three fellow athletes in Estonia, can firmly dismiss Rabe's new testimony.

- We drove last on board with our van. We carefully looked around at the car deck, since the teamlead Jaan would illegally sleep in the car. He had no cabin space. Besides, he wanted to guard our precious bikes. We saw absolutely no armed guards and no military vehicles anywhere.

 

[junkshop]

I haven’t followed the discussion of this particular issue so possibly the request for the images source is meant more rhetorically than literally. Reverse image search yielded nothing, but a search with a verbatim fragment of the text yielded this:

https://heiwaco.tripod.com/epunkt141.htm

Apologies if the source was known and the request was rhetorical.

No apologies necessary. The point had been made regarding Vixen's repeated use of, and refusal to admit to use of...let's call them dubious sources.

Also, I was starting to bore myself, so can only imagine how tedious others found my posts.

 

[Vixen]

They are always switched off unless activated by turning them on. Or, in the case of models that have immersion sensors, they are immersed in water.
There isn't a switch to turn off to store them and save the battery because they aren't using the battery.
They have a fixed life after which they are returned to the manufacturer to have the battery replaced.

Are we still in the dead parrot sketch? You have been shown:

• IMO Chapter III regulations making Float Free Automatic EPIRB's a mandatory requirement from Aug 1993 latest.
• The JAIC had to investigate why the EPIRB's did not automatically emit a signal after being immersed as they shoouldl have done.
• The EPIRB's were affixed externally to each side of the bridge in a freefloat only cage with an HRU.
• Rockwater divers confirmed the cages were empty and an HRU recovered.
• You cannot mount a manually operated buoy onto a bracket meant for auto EPIRB's.
• An expert presented to the JAIC his bemusement the EPIRB's were not tuned and were turned off.
• The expert who specializes in multimillion pound maritme radar equipment knows exactly how the €500 EPIRBS's are supposed to work.

I know it is fun to play euphemisms and alternatives, like the guy in the sketch, whilst at the same time enjoying winding up the irate customer just because his straightforward blunt and to the point telling of truth is perceived as arrogant and stuck up. I think in the end, the shopkeeper really believes that if he carries on denying what is an obvious truth, he never has to give the customer his due credit for having been sold a dead parrot. And of course the audience falls into two camps: those who love the inventiveness and wriggling out of the obvious by the shopkeeper because of the comedy value and those who recognise the type perfectly and prefer the integrity, directness and factuality of the customer.

 

[Vixen]

The gash in the hull was caused by impact with the rocky bottom. This is obvious to anyone looking at the footage. This gash was not visible in 1994/1995 as the hull was laying at such an angle that it was impossible to get the large DSRVs of the day underneath to view it. We've discussed this. You have repeatedly posted links to this fact and posted outline diagrams explaining this fact.

The hole(s) in Titanic's hull are buried in the mud, leaving researchers with only the testimony of the crew and passengers as to the location, and extent of the damage. But no one can claim anything other than a collision with an iceberg is to blame for the sinking. You can't survey what you cannot see. You can collect all the data possible to make an accurate assessment of the cause of an accident.

The Estonia has rolled on the slope, and that damage is now visible. This is time + gravity + currents, not some silly conspiracy to hide the truth. Had they raised Estonia back in 1994 they would have seen the gash and understood it was impact with the rocky sea floor. There is no mystery here, no elephant in the room...it left through the wide-open bow ramp...

...is the latest tentative theory, with two investigative reporters having brought it to public attention.

Lovely alternative theory but it doesn't wash.

 

[Vixen]

Since we have some selective quoting/translations from this: https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-1440209, I thought I could add some more:











.
So while Sweden have scanned the material and made it available, Finland has not.

A couple of points: Sweden did not make the material freely available. It only recently allowed a couple of Norwegians to examine th bow visor kept at Kronsberg (_sp?). There is no information at all about why the communications were down that night, including the EPIRB's being turned off.

The other point re Ain Alur Juhansson, the Estonian athlete who testified to climbing down the car ramp with his fellow athlete, according to JAIC this could not have been possible.

Juhansson say he knows there were no military truck/s loaded at the last minute because his car was last on. But how does he know he was last as you are required to leave your car. He says his colleague, Jaan slept in the car, and this poor chap is presumed drowned, so he is not around to confirm he was last and nothing else came on board. The other point is, lorries and trucks are directed to a different lane from the cars anyway.