The powerlessness of prayer

[Nick227]

Like the Global Orgasm for Peace?

Well, you'd have to get everyone to come together!

Nick

 

[six7s]

Well, you'd have to get everyone to come together!

Nick

Indeed

If it works, maybe it could be a way of ensuring everyone has a White Xmas

 

[six7s]

Playing pretend to make myself feel better is, IMO, silly.

I concur

Although such self-delusion can be comforting, it's patently superficial

The prospect of living in teh reel whirled^(tm) can (and does,for many) seem daunting, at first

However, it doesn't take long to realise ('scuse the pun) that life is pretty bloody fantastically jaw-droppingly amazing

Living in and dealing with reality is - in the long run - so much more rewarding and enabling

 

[RandFan]

First you need to identify the effect. It's kinda like saying I don't see why there couldn't be leprechauns.

One more thing, it's not like there hasn't been any studies. There have and so far bupkus. Susan Blackmore has spent years looking for the kinds of effects you speak of and at some point she just decided enough is enough. So it's not like this is the first time someone has thought maybe there is something to all of this. It's not the first time and so far not even a hint that there is something there.

You are free to go search if you want to. Myself, I'm interested in other things.

 

[Nick227]

This is backward thinking. First you need to identify the effect. It's kinda like saying I don't see why there couldn't be leprechauns. Ok, perhaps there is no reason but first lets establish whether there are leprechauns. There's nothing wrong with asking questions but until you find that leprechaun it's not an interesting question for many of us. Get back to us when you've got the data.

Well, there are prayers. Whether they have any effect is what's being discussed. I rather doubt that the prayer thing has developed sufficiently to really do so much, but it seems to me that the potential is there.

I think it can be a very good thing. Prayer is, demonstrably, a great placebo.

You're saying mind and brain are ontologically separate?

Nick

 

[six7s]

...but it seems to me that the potential is there.

Nick, it seems that you keep coming out with these vague, unsubstantiated assertions

I'd find your posts much more interesting if you would simply add a bit about why things seems the way they do to you

e.g.

but, because of X, Y and Z, it seems to me that the potential is there.
​

 

[RandFan]

Well, there are prayers.

And rabbits feet, four leaf clover, fairy rings, horse shoes and rainbows. So what?

Whether they have any effect is what's being discussed.

To date there is zero effect and it is not for lack of trying.

I rather doubt that the prayer thing has developed sufficiently to really do so much...

There are none so blind as they who will not see.

Why I Quit Parapsychology:Blackmore

Nick, in reality there are hundreds if not thousands of resources for why prayer is ineffective and to date has shown no effect. If you chose to ignore that information that is your prerogative. But don't expect anyone here to get excited about a phenomenon that has been looked at 9 ways to Sunday and turned up squat. Blackmore is particularly important because she was a true believer AND serious and rigorous scientist. After much money and time spent she found nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada. It's just not there.

...but it seems to me that the potential is there.

No more or less than horse shoes, rabbits feet and four leaf clover.

You're saying mind and brain are ontologically separate?

As a former and ardent dualist I'm saying that the mind is what the brain does.

 

[Nick227]

No more or less than horse shoes, rabbits feet and four leaf clover.

Well, I wouldn't much fancy trying to concoct a reason why these things could potentially have value in altering reality. Someone might fancy the job, but not me! But prayer at least has quite obvious possibilities, though I would certainly agree that it would require considerable effort to actualise them.

As a former and ardent dualist I'm saying that the mind is what the brain does.

Then why did you describe prayer as "a great placebo?" If mind is what the brain does then surely it either has an effect or it doesn't.

Nick

 

[RandFan]

Well, I wouldn't much fancy trying to concoct a reason why these things could potentially have value in altering reality. Someone might fancy the job, but not me! But prayer at least has quite obvious possibilities...

I don't mean to be rude Nick but these "obvious possibilities" are imagined. There is nothing "obvious" about the notion.

Then why did you describe prayer as "a great placebo?"

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it's likely a duck. Prayer meets all of the criteria of placebo. To those who don't believe in the efficacy of prayer there is no efficacy. We call that placebo. I don't mean to be rude but can you understand the point?

If mind is what the brain does then surely it either has an effect or it doesn't.

Yes, the effect is called "The Placebo Effect". It's well documented and understood. Every time researchers look at prayer the results are the same as sugar pills, horseshoes, four leaf clover and rabbits feet.

Placebo relies on belief. One must believe that the placebo will work or will likely work. When you take away the belief the effect disappears or decreases sharply.

Nick, hey, do me a favor, please? Take some time to look into the prayer studies. The research has been done. You are in effect promoting the idea that people live on the moon. Ok, perhaps, but all evidence to date suggests otherwise. If you don't want to look at the facts then what is the point of discussing whether or not people live on the moon?

 

[Nick227]

I don't mean to be rude Nick but these "obvious possibilities" are imagined. There is nothing "obvious" about the notion.

There's nothing obvious about the notion that millions of people doing something together could result in some emergent phenomena? Why then, for example, is Ned Block's refutation of functionalism not just simply derided?

There are clear possibilities for mass prayer as in many other mass organised activities. It would require a lot of work, but the possibilities are clearly there.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it's likely a duck. Prayer meets all of the criteria of placebo. To those who don't believe in the efficacy of prayer there is no efficacy. We call that placebo. I don't mean to be rude but can you understand the point?

I picked it up because you have to be careful when using terms like "placebo" as a materialist that you don't create ontological separation. Belief can be a causal agent just like a drug can be. I'm not saying you don't appreciate this, I just wanted to check it out.

Yes, the effect is called "The Placebo Effect". It's well documented and understood. Every time researchers look at prayer the results are the same as sugar pills, horseshoes, four leaf clover and rabbits feet.

Placebo relies on belief. One must believe that the placebo will work or will likely work. When you take away the belief the effect disappears or decreases sharply.

You're stating that prayer creates relaxation because there is a belief that prayer will create relaxation?
You consider totally insane that there might just be some kind of autonomic response going on to the bodily posture or intonations, should they be present?
If someone doesn't believe prayer creates relaxation then praying won't show any change in, say, galvanic skin response or EEG?
Do me a favour, Randfan. I'm not stating that prayer is changing the world right now but it does have potential to create change, and the actions of prayer can obviously create a change in bodily response.

Nick

 

[RandFan]

There's nothing obvious about the notion that millions of people doing something together could result in some emergent phenomena? Why then, for example, is Ned Block's refutation of functionalism not just simply derided?


There are clear possibilities for mass prayer as in many other mass organised activities. It would require a lot of work, but the possibilities are clearly there.

Nick, you are free to wander through the world believing whatever you like. By all means enjoy yourself. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

• That something could be doesn't mean that it is.
• There has been too much research in the field and nothing of interest to date.
• When you get something you let us know.

I picked it up because you have to be careful when using terms like "placebo" as a materialist that you don't create ontological separation.

No. I don't have to be careful. There is nothing there that warrants any reason to be careful.

You're stating that prayer creates relaxation because there is a belief that prayer will create relaxation?

No Nick.

Look, this is getting frustrating. I don't mind having a discussion but this is just knocking heads. Please read up on the Placebo Effect before you ask questions like this. Your statement is false and not consistent with the placebo effect.

FTR: Belief is simply a requirement for the placebo effect. It's not absolute. It's possible that a subject can know that she is taking a placebo and believes in the efficacy of placebo and it will still work. Is that understandable? In other words belief itself is not the placebo effect.

Do me a favour, Randfan.

Sure, if it's reasonable. What can I do for you?

I'm not stating that prayer is changing the world right now but it does have potential to create change, and the actions of prayer can obviously create a change in bodily response.

{sigh}

I've admitted that prayer can effect change. This is due to the placebo effect. If you disagree then please provide the evidence that would refute the scientific research that is contrary?

 

[Nick227]

I've admitted that prayer can effect change. This is due to the placebo effect. If you disagree then please provide the evidence that would refute the scientific research that is contrary?

There have been EEG studies done on meditators showing relaxation upon using a mantra. Would you accept this or do I have to roam around the internet looking for links?

What you wrote was..."I think it can be a very good thing. Prayer is, demonstrably, a great placebo. It can be very effective at lowering the heart rate, blood pressure and breathing. It can calm and focus a person."

What I'm saying is that these functions are not the result of this so-called placebo effect. They are not the result of a belief that prayer is effective for these things. They are the result of the actions of prayer upon the body. That is not a placebo effect.

What I object to is you using these demeaning (imo) terms without due understanding of what they actually mean.

eta: of course if one were praying actually for relaxation then complexities would arise here.

Nick

 

[RandFan]

What I object to is you using these demeaning (imo) terms without due understanding of what they actually mean.

• Is it possible that there are other effects of prayer similar to the effects of meditation that are not placebo? Sure.
• Would that significantly change my point? No.
• Has it been demonstrated that meditation is significantly outside or separate from the placebo effect? No.
• Are these meditation effects paranormal? No.
• Am I being demeaning by using the term placebo? No.

 

[six7s]

There have been EEG studies done on meditators showing relaxation upon using a mantra.

Do your own study: observe if there are any signs of relaxation upon using sleep, drugs, alcohol or any other consciousness-altering technique

Then...

THINK - for yourself - is noting that "there have been EEG studies done on meditators showing relaxation upon using a mantra" relevant to anything other than reverse-engineering conclusions to fit a model of woo?

What I'm saying is that these functions are <snip/> the result of the actions of prayer upon the body. That is not a placebo effect.

Even if you're only half right: So What?

What I object to is you using these demeaning (imo) terms without due understanding of what they actually mean.

What I object to is you serving up the same old stale, half-baked nonsense and expecting anyone to swallow it

 

[Nick227]

[*]Is it possible that there are other effects of prayer similar to the effects of meditation that are not placebo. Sure

...and that all the ones I attributed to placebo earlier actually aren't a placebo, even though I was quite happy to lecture Nick about him needing to read up on placebo!

[*]Would that significantly change my point? No.

Arguably not.

[*]Am I being demeaning by using the term placebo? No.

OK.

Nick

 

[RandFan]

...and that all the ones I attributed to placebo earlier actually aren't a placebo, even though I was quite happy to lecture Nick about him needing to read up on placebo!?

Nick, at the end of the day there is no reason to think that there is anything substantive to prayer beyond the placebo effect and perhaps something akin to meditation. So what?

You are the one making claims about the potential of prayer. I'm only saying that there is but a small range of phenomenon associated with prayer and it can be explained by placebo. If you want to argue that there is some meditative effects that are outside of the placebo effect fine, I'm not at all convinced but I don't really give a damn as it doesn't change anything I've been saying.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

What I'm saying is that these functions are not the result of this so-called placebo effect. They are not the result of a belief that prayer is effective for these things. They are the result of the actions of prayer upon the body. That is not a placebo effect.

What actions are these? Specify and provide documentation
Can you provide evidence of these "effects of prayer upon the body" in a controlled test?
If so, you could be a Millionaire.

 

[Raptor Witness]

What actions are these? Specify and provide documentation
Can you provide evidence of these "effects of prayer upon the body" in a controlled test?
If so, you could be a Millionaire.

I just saw a program on the Rev. Jim Jones, who was the pastor of the People's Temple. He apparently was using obvious deception to win converts, however, this was known to a good number of people. Many of whom supported these activities for the sake of his communist agenda.

The problem is, there are many well documented cases in the medical literature, which allude to the miraculous, and which defy scientific understanding.
The Bible too, seems to allude to the underlying belief in healing as one of the components of being healed. So there's little doubt in the mind/body connection. This is how witch doctors operated for centuries before civilized medicine, with relatively great success.

Regardless of if you believe in the power of prayer, if the patient does, then the benefit can be obtained, irrespective of bystander belief. Real power can be found in the petition of any higher power, including ourselves.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

The problem is, that there are many well documented cases in the medical literature, which allude to the miraculous, and which defy scientific understanding.

I doubt that.
But feel free to prove me wrong by providing at least one of them.

I will be waiting right here.


(Also please don't forget to decode the images I sent you at the other thread. Mankind is counting on you)

 

[RandFan]

Regardless of if you believe in the power of prayer, if the patient does, then the benefit can be obtained, regardless of the belief of bystanders. Real power can be found in the petition of any higher power, including ourselves.

Let it be known that any benefit is limited and doesn't work for re-growing amputated limbs or healing paraplegics. Benefits are roughly the same as horse shoes, four leaf clover and rabbits feet. No paranormal effect has ever been demonstrated and all healing is at best placebo. Period. End of story.