The powerlessness of prayer

[six7s]

... there are many well documented cases in the medical literature, which allude to the miraculous, and which defy scientific understanding.

Please cite ONE or more such cases

Thank you

 

[Raptor Witness]

Please cite ONE or more such cases

Thank you

Here's a case that I find intriguing, from a mind/body perspective. Whether she prayed or not, I have no way of knowing, but it is exceptional, regardless, as it is not easy to explain. They know how it happened, but they cannot explain why it happened, and the process of organ rejection is fairly well understood.

This case has not been widely reported, but it's one of the most interesting that I've ever read. Essentially what happened, was the girl got a liver transplant, and her bone marrow switched from the blood type of her birth, to that of the donor. If you don't know anything about medicine, you might not understand the significance of this. If the mechanism was normal, it should happen more frequently. I would love to meet this woman.

[Australian girl's 'miracle' immune switch]

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Here's a case that I find intriguing, from a mind/body perspective. Whether she prayed or not, I have no way of knowing,

Then that's not really a good document to support the claim that "prayer changes the person's organism" now is it?

So any documents that do provide a direct correlation between prayer and physical healing?

As I said: I will be waiting.

 

[six7s]

Here's a case that I find intriguing<snip/>

[Australian girl's 'miracle' immune switch]

Ermm...

Maybe I need to emphasise what I expect in order for you to substantiate your claim:

Please cite ONE or more such cases

Thank you

Do you notice the subtle difference?

As I said: I will be waiting.

Me too...

But I ain't holding my breath

 

[Raptor Witness]

This is obviously rising above the heads of some here, who do not understand the mechanism of "prayer," and why it may work, beyond the supernatural.

However, proving the supernatural is about the odds and what lies outside the realm of the ordinary. You gentlemen, are confining yourselves to the argument for arguments sake. This case which I have given you, is the ultimate in mind body curiosities, but instead of giving it some thought, you think of nothing and use that as your argument.

 

[six7s]

This is obviously rising above the heads of some here, who do not understand the mechanism of "prayer," and why it may work, beyond the supernatural.

Obvious to those gifted with the ability to decipher the terms supernatural and/or prayer in an article that mentions neither... yeah

Australian girl's 'miracle' immune switch

An Australian teenage girl has become the world's first known transplant patient to change blood groups and take on the immune system of her organ donor, say doctors.
<snip/>

Her body changed blood group from O negative to O positive when she became ill while on drugs to avoid rejection of the organ by her body's immune system.

<snip/>

Doctors say they have no explanation for Brennan's recovery, and describe her as a "one-in-six-billion miracle".

<snip/>

"We now need to go back over everything that happened to Demi-Lee and see why, and if it can be replicated," says Dorney.

"We think because we used a young person's liver and Demi-Lee had low white blood cells, that could have been a reason," he told the Daily Telegraph newspaper.

<snip/>

Tags: doctors-and-medical-professionals, medical-procedures, medical-research

Note: this article was NOT tagged with the words woo, prayer, supernatural or (despite the eye-catching title) miracle

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

This is obviously rising above the heads of some here, who do not understand the mechanism of "prayer," and why it may work, beyond the supernatural.

However, proving the supernatural is about the odds and what lies outside the realm of the ordinary. You gentlemen, are confining yourselves to the argument for arguments sake. This case which I have given you, is the ultimate in mind body curiosities, but instead of giving it some thought, you think of nothing and use that as your argument.

You're right. I'm sorry. I'm being such a close-minded person.

The correct approach to events that haven't been explained yet should be: Hmmmm, it looks like the only possible explanation is a miracle. She must have prayed and God answered her prayers. Yeah, that's it.

There, problem solved.

Shall we go on and solve all other unexplained events like that? It sure works fast.




Don't you have some more postdictions to take care of in the other thread anyway?

 

[fls]

Here's a case that I find intriguing, from a mind/body perspective. Whether she prayed or not, I have no way of knowing, but it is exceptional, regardless, as it is not easy to explain. They know how it happened, but they cannot explain why it happened, and the process of organ rejection is fairly well understood.

This case has not been widely reported, but it's one of the most interesting that I've ever read. Essentially what happened, was the girl got a liver transplant, and her bone marrow switched from the blood type of her birth, to that of the donor. If you don't know anything about medicine, you might not understand the significance of this. If the mechanism was normal, it should happen more frequently. I would love to meet this woman.

[Australian girl's 'miracle' immune switch]

This case wasn't actually unique, miraculous or inexplicable, as outlined in this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3369927#post3369927

Linda

 

[RandFan]

This case wasn't actually unique, miraculous or inexplicable, as outlined in this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3369927#post3369927

Linda

Thank you. And let's be sure, assuming it was unique and inexplicable it wouldn't be cause to speculate about the miraculous.

There was a time when it was believed that a chariot moved the sun across the sky. If you can understand why that was a mistake in presumption then you can understand why being ignorant of an explanation is no reason to leap to conclusions.

 

[RandFan]

This case wasn't actually unique, miraculous or inexplicable, as outlined in this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3369927#post3369927

Linda

I just read the post. Damn. You go girl (please don't take that as derogatory).

It's amazing how many people simply want to insert the supernatural before any attempt to find prosaic answers.

I have to confess though. I was going throuh a box of old books and found some books on the supernatural. I was one of those people at one time.

Thanks Linda, I was very impressed with your post.

 

[six7s]

This case wasn't actually unique, miraculous or inexplicable, as outlined in this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3369927#post3369927

Linda

Thanks Linda! You are (yet another) wonderful polisher of Es in the JREF forums!

It's moments like these that illustrate how participation in these forums is definitely worthwhile

 

[Nick227]

Let it be known that any benefit is limited and doesn't work for re-growing amputated limbs or healing paraplegics. Benefits are roughly the same as horse shoes, four leaf clover and rabbits feet. No paranormal effect has ever been demonstrated and all healing is at best placebo. Period. End of story.

Something that I think could usefully be clarified here is the notion of the "placebo effect."

Back in the old days, prior to the more widespread belief in materialism, when people still figured there was a "mind-body problem", this notion of a "placebo effect" was a way that doctors could attribute bizarre healings to some power of the mind. Now that we have materialism this shouldn't happen anymore. Belief must be recognised as a causative agent, precisely the same as drugs are recognised as such.

Neither beliefs nor drugs will grow back lost limbs, but both come in the same category - as causative agents.

Nick

 

[PixyMisa]

Something that I think could usefully be clarified here is the notion of the "placebo effect."

Back in the old days, prior to the more widespread belief in materialism, when people still figured there was a "mind-body problem", this notion of a "placebo effect" was a way that doctors could attribute bizarre healings to some power of the mind. Now that we have materialism this shouldn't happen anymore. Belief must be recognised as a causative agent, precisely the same as drugs are recognised as such.

Neither beliefs nor drugs will grow back lost limbs, but both come in the same category - as causative agents.

No.

 

[Raptor Witness]

This case wasn't actually unique, miraculous or inexplicable, as outlined in this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3369927#post3369927

Linda

It's an interesting case, regardless of the possible mechanism. It's not normal enough to be considered "understood." So this still leaves open the possibility that something we don't understand is going on. The age of donor and recipient is frequently young, so don't use that as your simplistic argument. I can find plenty of statistics to shoot that down.

This case interests me enough to do some additional research. Let's agree to disagree for now, because while anything can be explained as purely biological, the mind/body mechanism is itself very poorly understood, and prayer might help tilt the mechanism in favor of healing. It certainly can't hurt, and to suggest as much is to discount the mind/body mechanism, that we know exists and performs some function in healing.

 

[six7s]

Iprayer might help tilt the mechanism in favor of healing.

Might...

That's an awfully BIG might... especially when you acknowledge that neither the patient nor any of the medical staff even hint at any woo...

Why/how do you jump to that line of 'thinking'?

It certainly can't hurt, and to suggest as much is to discount the mind/body mechanism, that we know exists and performs some function in healing.

Tell that to those left behind when medical care is refused in favour of prayer

 

[fls]

It's an interesting case, regardless of the possible mechanism. It's not normal enough to be considered "understood." So this still leaves open the possibility that something we don't understand is going on. The age of donor and recipient is frequently young, so don't use that as your simplistic argument. I can find plenty of statistics to shoot that down.

I should make it clear, that the summary I provided of the sequence of events and their importance as to the outcome, was from the original paper on the case published in the New England Journal of Medicine, not something I guessed at on my own. I mentioned in the previous thread, it wasn't that any particular aspect of the case was unique. As you said, there have previously been young donors and recipients. It's that the particular combination of various characteristics (including the ages) each contributed their mite to the somewhat unusual outcome.

But I hope that you're not suggesting that your personal unfamiliarity with the details of the case or requisite background knowledge passes for what can be "understood" about this case?

This case interests me enough to do some additional research. Let's agree to disagree for now, because while anything can be explained as purely biological, the mind/body mechanism is itself very poorly understood, and prayer might help tilt the mechanism in favor of healing. It certainly can't hurt, and to suggest as much is to discount the mind/body mechanism, that we know exists and performs some function in healing.

We haven't discovered that the mind contributes to healing though. We have studied the placebo effect, a part of which comes about from the mind (expectation), but there isn't any difference in healing between taking a placebo and taking nothing at all. The only difference we have documented between the two is a lessening of the subjective perception of symptoms like pain.

Linda

 

[Ali]

If you do decide to worship a jug of milk then you’ve decided to have low intelligence, because it’s not hard for the Lord to raise or lower your intelligence.

 

[Ali]

If you do decide to worship a jug of milk then you’ve decided to have low intelligence, because it’s not hard for the Lord to raise or lower your intelligence.

 

[RandFan]

If you do decide to worship a jug of milk [or god] then you’ve decided to have low intelligence...

There is no demonstrable difference between worshiping god or milk. You are so blinded by your belief that you can't even understand the argument or the facts.

 

[RandFan]

Something that I think could usefully be clarified here is the notion of the "placebo effect."

Back in the old days, prior to the more widespread belief in materialism, when people still figured there was a "mind-body problem", this notion of a "placebo effect" was a way that doctors could attribute bizarre healings to some power of the mind. Now that we have materialism this shouldn't happen anymore. Belief must be recognised as a causative agent, precisely the same as drugs are recognised as such.

Nick, this doesn't represent the state of modern medicine or the scientific understanding of psychiatry, neurology and physiology.

You shouldn't just state authoritatively anything you believe without some attempt to understand what the current level of understanding is. If you want to state an opinion that is contrary to current scientific understanding you should find out what the current consensus is and understand why you disagree with it.

I'll confess I've done the same and have been taken to task before so I'm hardly one to throw rocks.