The powerlessness of prayer

[Ali]

If you do decide to worship a jug of milk then you’ve decided to have low intelligence, because it’s not hard for the Lord to raise or lower your intelligence.

There is no demonstrable difference between worshiping god or milk. You are so blinded by your belief that you can't even understand the argument or the facts.

The demonstrable difference is low intelligence.
If you can’t see that then what does it mean???!!!

 

[RandFan]

The demonstrable difference is low intelligence.
If you can’t see that then what does it mean???!!!

But the "low intelligence" is simply asserted and it is a canard. The fact that god is no more effective than a jug of milk is the only saliant and demonstrable point.

You can flail your arms about all you want but you can't disprove that fact.

 

[six7s]

If you do decide to worship a jug of milk then you’ve decided to have low intelligence, because it’s not hard for the Lord to raise or lower your intelligence.

OK... simply for the purposes of this discussion, let's pretend that you are right...

If you are suggesting that you, as a worshiper of your lord, have a 'high intelligence', then it should be exceedingly easy for you to:

• Describe who this lord of yours is (cf was)
• Provide evidence of specific individuals whose intelligence levels have been (certainly, unambiguously, etc) raised and lowered by your lord

Thank you in advance

 

[RandFan]

OK... simply for the purposes of this discussion, let's pretend that you are right...


If you are suggesting that you, as a worshiper of your lord, have a 'high intelligence', then it should be exceedingly easy for you to:

• Describe who this lord of yours is (cf was)
• Provide evidence of specific individuals whose intelligence levels have been (certainly, unambiguously, etc) raised and lowered by your lord

Thank you in advance

I'm holding my breath.

 

[Ali]

OK... simply for the purposes of this discussion, let's pretend that you are right...

If you are suggesting that you, as a worshiper of your lord, have a 'high intelligence', then it should be exceedingly easy for you to:

• Describe who this lord of yours is (cf was)
• Provide evidence of specific individuals whose intelligence levels have been (certainly, unambiguously, etc) raised and lowered by your lord

Thank you in advance

All I know is that he’s a compassionate God;
He’s not pleased with anyone being abusive towards him;
He gives gifts to all his obedient servants.

His agents are not powerless when it comes to punishing the ruthless.......

My evidence is my claim.
If you can’t see that!!!....................

 

[RandFan]

All I know is that he’s a compassionate God;

How do you know this?

He’s not pleased with anyone being abusive towards him;

Why?

He gives gifts to all his obedient servants.

Prove it?

 

[Nick227]

Nick, this doesn't represent the state of modern medicine or the scientific understanding of psychiatry, neurology and physiology.

You shouldn't just state authoritatively anything you believe without some attempt to understand what the current level of understanding is. If you want to state an opinion that is contrary to current scientific understanding you should find out what the current consensus is and understand why you disagree with it.

I'll confess I've done the same and have been taken to task before so I'm hardly one to throw rocks.

Well, I did say "shouldn't happen any more." Materialism as I understand it should absolutely oppose our prior understanding of there being a "placebo effect." Wouldn't you agree?

Nick

ps - I do overstate things at times also, but I don't think I'm doing that here

 

[fls]

Well, I did say "shouldn't happen any more." Materialism as I understand it should absolutely oppose our prior understanding of there being a "placebo effect." Wouldn't you agree?

Nick

ps - I do overstate things at times also, but I don't think I'm doing that here

What do you think "placebo effect" means?

Linda

 

[Nick227]

What do you think "placebo effect" means?

Linda

For me it refers to the notion that non-acting drugs can produce change through people believing they work.

My issue with the term is that it tends to have derisory or derogatory undertones, and generally reflects the belief that mental means for effecting change are somehow inferior to and thus ontologically separated from physical. As a bit of a hardline materialist monist I take issue with such activity.

Nick

 

[Safe-Keeper]

If you do decide to worship a jug of milk then you’ve decided to have low intelligence

I know this sounds arrogant, but I honestly don't understand how the brilliant 'jug of milk' analogy can fly over so many peoples' heads. Seems to me that believers focus too much on the blasphemy of it to really get its point. Maybe the analogy should have a rain dance or a prayer to some 'dead' god like Odin instead, though I doubt it would've helped.

Either way, the point is that whatever cop-outs you can apply to the failure rate of Yahweh when you pray to Him, you can also apply to the failure rate of unseen powers in dairy products to do your bidding when you pray to them.

 

[fls]

For me it refers to the notion that non-acting drugs can produce change through people believing they work.

My issue with the term is that it tends to have derisory or derogatory undertones, and generally reflects the belief that mental means for effecting change are somehow inferior to and thus ontologically separated from physical. As a bit of a hardline materialist monist I take issue with such activity.

Nick

Okay, I think I understand what you're getting at - mental processes are as causative as physical processes (without invoking dualism) and aren't inherently inferior except maybe in the tendency for the effect to be quantifiably less?

Linda

 

[Nick227]

Okay, I think I understand what you're getting at - mental processes are as causative as physical processes (without invoking dualism) and aren't inherently inferior except maybe in the tendency for the effect to be quantifiably less?

Linda

Pretty much.

Actually, I think we have to start looking at the potential of belief to cause change as a physical process. Frequently it's also not quantitatively less, though for sure measurement itself can be an issue. IMO beliefs are probably among the most powerful agents of change around.

Nick

 

[RandFan]

Materialism as I understand it should absolutely oppose our prior understanding of there being a "placebo effect." Wouldn't you agree?

Well, to be honest I don't know what your understanding of materialism is and I'm not sure what you mean by prior understanding of "placebo effect" so I don't know how to evaluate those two premises.

As for materialism and the placebo effect the way materialists understand it there is no opposition.

Please to tell us what your understanding of materialism is, what you believe is (was) our prior understanding of placebo why those would be in opposition.

 

[RandFan]

My issue with the term is that it tends to have derisory or derogatory undertones, and generally reflects the belief that mental means for effecting change are somehow inferior to and thus ontologically separated from physical.

No.

The mind is what the brain does. The placebo effect is understood from a an evolutionary and materialistic POV. The effect itself is viewed from an anthropological POV as simply an adaptation that can benefit people.

Please forgive my presumption and let me explain what the placebo effect is.

Humans evolved to be in one state during fighting (killing game, defending against invaders, etc) and another state when one is not fighting (this is a rough explanation).

Fight or Flight State: In this fight state the body focuses most of or all of the body's resources to being alert and to fight. The brain floods the body with chemicals like adreniline that are conducive to alertness, aggression and, well, fighting or running.

Non Fight or Flight State: Once the threat is gone the body changes the state to calm and relaxed and begins healing. Resources are diverted to injured areas and the chemical mix is changed to include powerful opiates that mitigate pain and increase a feeling of well being.

When a person is scared or worried he or she is in the Fight or Flight state and the body does not heal as rapidly. The chemicals that are in the body are not conducive to healing. When a person takes medicine it gives the person a reason to switch from a heightened worried state to a healing one directing the body to release endorphins and calming chemicals.

That's why it works. The only reason it is used in a derogatory fashion toward nonsense like homeopathic medicine is that it is obvious that homeopathic medicines work no better than sugar pills and those who sell such nonsense are lying and exploiting the placebo effect for financial gain.

No contradiction with materialism.

 

[fls]

When a person is scared or worried he or she is in the Fight or Flight state and the body does not heal as rapidly. The chemicals that are in the body are not conducive to healing. When a person takes medicine it gives the person a reason to switch from a heightened worried state to a healing one directing the body to release endorphins and calming chemicals.

That's why it works.

I'm not sure that that's the case. We can demonstrate some short term effects of state of mind. But if it was really the case that a person switched to a healing state in any meaningful way, we should be able to see objective differences between people given a placebo and those given no treatment (e.g. more infections should resolve, surgical wounds should heal faster). We don't really see this.

Linda

 

[RandFan]

I'm not sure that that's the case. We can demonstrate some short term effects of state of mind. But if it was really the case that a person switched to a healing state in any meaningful way, we should be able to see objective differences between people given a placebo and those given no treatment (e.g. more infections should resolve, surgical wounds should heal faster). We don't really see this.

Linda

Thanks.

Don't read too much into the "healing state". I appologize for perhaps overstating the effect. Clearly people feel better. Reduction in pain and an increase in sense of well being is the important and obvious benifit. Clearly there are limits.

That said there are measurable improvements.

The Placebo Effect and Its Health Benefits

Known to science as the placebo effect, this phenomenon has long been observed in clinical trials where patients who were taking an inactive compound reported real improvements, more improvement than patients getting no treatment at all. Placebos can either be a pill made from inactive substances or a sham procedure meant to imitate the real one but with no specific therapeutic activity that a patient accepts as therapy. Any subsequent therapeutic effect is based on the power of suggestion.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

My evidence is my claim.
If you can’t see that!!!....................

Kramer:

True to the specifics of his claim, we instructed this applicant to contact us the moment he had every dog on earth together in one place and ready for testing. I told him that we were "good to go".

I received some nasty emails in response, then a brief series of emails in which the applicant bemoaned the absence of a dog pound warden in the UK who would grant him easy access to the wild dog cage. Then nothing.

And nothing since.

Yeah, we certainly have some good evidence that you have no claim and perhaps even some serious mental issues.

 

[fls]

Thanks.

Don't read too much into the "healing state". I appologize for perhaps overstating the effect. Clearly people feel better. Reduction in pain and an increase in sense of well being is the important and obvious benifit. Clearly there are limits.

That said there are measurable improvements.

Yeah, it's just that those improvements are for subjective-type measures where it's difficult to separate out the effects of expectation and other biases in the reporting, from any actual changes in the underlying symptomatology.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/344/21/1594

It has been shown that expectation alone makes you remember your relief as greater than it actually was (as measured at the time), or remember your pain as worse than it actually was if you knew that you were not receiving active treatment.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=8dceca7f4507efbe09ba83878e12b58a

Linda

 

[SirPhilip]

These Wonderful Things Are The Things We Remember All Through Our Lives

I don't mean to be rude Nick but these "obvious possibilities" are imagined. There is nothing "obvious" about the notion

Like a lot of people here, I'm ethically upright, yet I almost disastrously bought the farm last night, James Bond style. The small sports car I was driving lost control while it was snowing, and by chance, careened into rock instead of a fifty foot drop and sliding sideways to a stop. Seconds after, a man ran up (a very unlikely scenario) attempting in futility - and at great personal risk, to right it on it's wheels on slippery road, and far more perturbed about my affairs than I was. I breezily got out from the sunroof.

Consider going out of your way to be someone else's refuge on a cold night before asking for the rules to be bent for yourself.

 

[Foster Zygote]

All I know is that he’s a compassionate God;

You claimed that he deliberately allowed a little girl to be abducted, raped and buried alive.

He’s not pleased with anyone being abusive towards him;

And you concluded that the little girl must have been a blasphemer if your god saw fit to watch from the sidelines as she was raped and murdered.

Your poor little god. How horribly evil of that little girl to hurt his feelings like that. I mean we just can't tolerate little girls causing such harm to the psyche of an all powerful being like that.

He gives gifts to all his obedient servants.

Santa brought me an HO scale train set when I was a kid.

His agents are not powerless when it comes to punishing the ruthless.......

Why does he need agents? How can we tell the difference between a true agent of God and some idiot who only thinks that God is talking to him?

My evidence is my claim.
If you can’t see that!!!....................

Actually, your evidence would be a demonstration of the truth of your claim. You have so far backed out of every opportunity to validate it. It has actually become a joke around here. People laugh about it.