The Parapsychological Experimenter Effect

[Limbo]

"Just train up your spies in psi and have them remote view all the secrets you want."

Sort of like saying,

"Just train up your baseball players and have them hit all the home-runs you want."

 

[Robin]

But arthwollipot said: "Just train up your spies in psi and have them remote view all the secrets you want." It can be dangerous if spies are getting even some of the secrets wrong. But maybe we can agree on "overwhelmingly accurate" rather than "infallible."

Like satellite imagery?

No, psi has been detectable -- and detected -- since the beginning of time.

For example?

 

[Robin]

I don't know the exact wording of the 'message'...I only know the effect the message had on Carol. She regarded the 'presence' as a deadly threat to her baby.

Well that is a subtle change to the story.

Easy for you to say...you weren't there. All you can do is guess.

Of course not being there can be an advantage as well as a disadvantage. With regard to the message you are guessing just as much as me. Did the message say it was going to kill her baby, or was there some vague wording that she interpreted as a threat to her baby.

 

[arthwollipot]

...I've forgotten more strange experiences than many people have in their entire life. Sometimes I don't know whether it's a blessing or a curse. Sometimes I wish none of it had ever happened. That would make it easier to go through life believing what I want to believe, like so many other people. Instead, I'm limited by my experiences. I don't have the luxury of closing my eyes and cruising through life on auto-pilot. I don't have the bliss of ignorance. Instead I have the burden of responsibility.

Sounds to me like you've just been putting a supernatural spin on all of the experiences you've had. Everything that has happened to you that you can't immediately explain is attributed to demons, ghosts, poltergeists or aliens.

Everyone experiences things they cannot explain. Not everyone leaps at supernatural explanations for them.

"Just train up your spies in psi and have them remote view all the secrets you want."

Sort of like saying,

"Just train up your baseball players and have them hit all the home-runs you want."

No, it's more like saying,

"Just train up your baseball players and have them go back in time and poison all of the opposing team's players."

 

[Limbo]

Well that is a subtle change to the story.

I believe what I said was 'it said it was going to kill her baby'. Did that give you the impression that this was the EXACT Ouija wording?

Of course not being there can be an advantage as well as a disadvantage. With regard to the message you are guessing just as much as me. Did the message say it was going to kill her baby, or was there some vague wording that she interpreted as a threat to her baby.

Either way, they panicked and then things started happening.

Sounds to me like you've just been putting a supernatural spin on all of the experiences you've had.

I resent the word 'supernatural', I think it's an obsolete word. Whatever happens is natural.

Everything that has happened to you that you can't immediately explain is attributed to demons, ghosts, poltergeists or aliens.

I attribute nothing to demons, ghosts, poltergeists or aliens. I attribute it to psi. RSPK. If you don't see the difference, then may I suggest you lack discernment.

"The unconscious psi, amplified by the fear and belief of the girls produced those effects. Most likely it was Cathy alone, although it's conceivable that the psi of the other girls contributed." -Limbo

Thats why the word poltergeist was in scare quotes.

 

[tyr_13]

I attribute nothing to demons, ghosts, poltergeists or aliens. I attribute it to psi. RSPK. If you don't see the difference, then may I suggest you lack discernment.

Yeah, that sounds much more reasonable. Sure those things are different, but what do they have in common? No good evidence.

 

[arthwollipot]

I resent the word 'supernatural', I think it's an obsolete word. Whatever happens is natural.

Sorry, how about "non-demonstrable" instead?

I attribute nothing to demons, ghosts, poltergeists or aliens. I attribute it to psi. RSPK. If you don't see the difference, then may I suggest you lack discernment.

Of course. But you haven't always. By your own account, you originally attributed this poltergeist story to demons. My point is that is doesn't matter what label you put on the experience, you will always interpret things as something that other people would normally refer to as "supernatural" or "paranormal" - even if you personally don't like those terms.

If psi is natural, as you claim, then it should be demonstrable. That's all the MDC requires, after all. A demonstration that you can do what you claim to be able to do.

Can you demonstrate your psi to others, Limbo? If not, you should not be surprised that we are skeptical.

 

[Robin]

I believe what I said was 'it said it was going to kill her baby'. Did that give you the impression that this was the EXACT Ouija wording?

No, it gave me an impression that you were providing an accurate representation of the Ouija board wording.

Either way, they panicked and then things started happening.

They panicked, certainly. That things started happening is not really clear. I have some experience of the sort of unreasoning panic and fear that a Ouija board session can produce, so the screaming, crying and surreal atmosphere are no surprise. I also have some experience of the misperception that can occur in a chaotic, fearful atmosphere.

Basically you saw lots of things strewn about, lights going on and off in an apartment full of panicked people. At least two electrical devices behaving strangely (how?) and a notebook fly across the room, with nobody that you could see to have thrown it. But again you were in an apartment full of panicked people in an atmosphere of chaos.

I resent the word 'supernatural', I think it's an obsolete word. Whatever happens is natural.

If you deal with the responses of more than one of us in the same post, please make it clear that it was somebody else, not me who said this.

 

[Limbo]

Sorry, how about "non-demonstrable" instead?

How about anomalous? Or maybe perinormal?

If psi is natural, as you claim, then it should be demonstrable. That's all the MDC requires, after all. A demonstration that you can do what you claim to be able to do.

Can you demonstrate your psi to others, Limbo? If not, you should not be surprised that we are skeptical.

My psi ability? No, I can't demonstrate it. I have no conscious control over my psi ability, such as it is. Although I would love to participate in a ganzfeld experiment or something.

Yes I do claim psi is natural, and I do claim that it has been demonstrated in some (not all) parapsychological experiments to some degree. Whether that degree is enough for some people is another matter. People can dismiss a lot, just look at YEC.

I don't know how I would feel about it had I not had my experiences. I would probably think that psi is the deceptive work of the devil, since I was raised a Christian.

 

[Limbo]

No, it gave me an impression that you were providing an accurate representation of the Ouija board wording.

Carol said that 'IT' said it was going to kill her baby. I didn't grill her for the EXACT wording.

Is that a problem for you? Why is the EXACT wording so important to you?

If you deal with the responses of more than one of us in the same post, please make it clear that it was somebody else, not me who said this.

Right. Sorry about that.

 

[Jeff Corey]

...No, psi has been detectable -- and detected -- since the beginning of time.

Yeah, sure. And ghosts and the tooth fairy and all the other imaginary stuff that people have been deluding themselves with since "the beginning of time", whenever that was.

 

[arthwollipot]

How about anomalous? Or maybe perinormal?

"Anomalous" works for me. Essentially, you are attributing to psi every anomalous experience you have. You have always had experiences that you considered to be anomalous, and over the course of your life you have attributed these anomalous experience variously to demons/poltergeists, and now to psi. Can I ask when you realised that it was psi and not demons?

 

[Limbo]

"Anomalous" works for me. Essentially, you are attributing to psi every anomalous experience you have. You have always had experiences that you considered to be anomalous, and over the course of your life you have attributed these anomalous experience variously to demons/poltergeists, and now to psi. Can I ask when you realised that it was psi and not demons?

The process was gradual. The "poltergeist" incident seemed to fit within my Christian paradigm, but the 'UFO' incident didn't seem to fit quite as nicely. It as well as other experiences left unanswered questions that festered like a sore tooth.

The festering eventually resulted in a crisis of faith, a mid-life crisis perhaps, and I started looking into the academic fields of comparative mythology, comparative religion, and comparative mysticism very closely. I noticed certain patterns in these fields...they overlap with each other and complement each other in a way that is very satisfying intellectually and aesthetically. They line up like a wheel within a wheel within a wheel with spokes running throughout.

This eventually led to parapsychology, which also complements these fields though not quite so directly. Dots began to be connected. Pieces of the 'big picture' puzzle fell into place.

 

[Robin]

Carol said that 'IT' said it was going to kill her baby. I didn't grill her for the EXACT wording.

Is that a problem for you? Why is the EXACT wording so important to you?

I don't believe I have even mentioned the exact wording, have I? I am merely pointing out that for her to have gained the impression that "it" was going to kill her baby it must have been a reasonably clear and detailed message, of the sort not usually reported in Ouija sessions.

Still, since you have brought up the subject, weren't you curious about the exact words? There were 5 or 6 witnesses to the message and no grilling would have been necessary, asking would have sufficed.

 

[arthwollipot]

...I started looking into the academic fields of comparative mythology, comparative religion, and comparative mysticism very closely. I noticed certain patterns in these fields...they overlap with each other and complement each other in a way that is very satisfying intellectually and aesthetically. They line up like a wheel within a wheel within a wheel with spokes running throughout.

This eventually led to parapsychology, which also complements these fields though not quite so directly. Dots began to be connected. Pieces of the 'big picture' puzzle fell into place.

Interesting. Can you give us examples of the way these apparently disparate subjects overlap?

 

[Limbo]

I don't believe I have even mentioned the exact wording, have I? I am merely pointing out that for her to have gained the impression that "it" was going to kill her baby it must have been a reasonably clear and detailed message, of the sort not usually reported in Ouija sessions.

Still, since you have brought up the subject, weren't you curious about the exact words? There were 5 or 6 witnesses to the message and no grilling would have been necessary, asking would have sufficed.

I was more concerned about calming her down. The exact wording, and the particular questions they asked seemed like minor details.

I doubt the Ouija board spelled out a complete sentence like, "I am going to kill your unborn baby, Carol". If I may speculate, it seems more likely that Carol asked about the fate of her baby, thus giving her fears a chance to surface, and then the response was something like "death". Maybe a followup question asked how, and the answer was "me".

Interesting. Can you give us examples of the way these apparently disparate subjects overlap?

Whew...where to start. It's hard to know. Maybe you could help me decide that by answering a few questions.

Were you ever a member of a religion?

How do *you* define the words mysticism, religion, mythology? Don't google them...tell us off the top of your head.

 

[arthwollipot]

Whew...where to start. It's hard to know. Maybe you could help me decide that by answering a few questions.

Were you ever a member of a religion?

Yes. I was baptised in an Assemblies of God congregation.

I got better.

How do *you* define the words mysticism, religion, mythology? Don't google them...tell us off the top of your head.

I tend not to define such words if I can help it. I have no particular definitions that I can generate off the top of my head. However, like the prototypical obscenity case, I know it when I see it. I tend to associate the word "religion" with the more established faiths such as Catholicism, Protestantism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Even though Buddhism isn't strictly a religion, blah blah.

Mythology - I feel that there are stories that are mythological and some that aren't. I make a distinction between "myth" and "legend". First there is a particularly memorable event. The story of the event is told, and it becomes "legend". Then the story of the legend is retold, with elaboration (usually involving deities or other "mystical" influences), and it becomes "myth".

That's not the best description, but right now I am pretty tired, and just a little bit drunk, so it's the best I can do right now.

 

[Limbo]

Yes. I was baptised in an Assemblies of God congregation.

I got better.

Now you're an atheist, correct? Are you spiritual?

I tend not to define such words if I can help it. I have no particular definitions that I can generate off the top of my head. However, like the prototypical obscenity case, I know it when I see it. I tend to associate the word "religion" with the more established faiths such as Catholicism, Protestantism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Even though Buddhism isn't strictly a religion, blah blah.

Mythology - I feel that there are stories that are mythological and some that aren't. I make a distinction between "myth" and "legend". First there is a particularly memorable event. The story of the event is told, and it becomes "legend". Then the story of the legend is retold, with elaboration (usually involving deities or other "mystical" influences), and it becomes "myth".

That's not the best description, but right now I am pretty tired, and just a little bit drunk, so it's the best I can do right now.

Let me toss out a few quick definitions and we'll see what you think. Religion is mis-interpreted mythology. Mythology is a vocabulary not of words but of heroic acts, symbols, poetry, metaphor, art, etc which express certain themes and motifs..."elementary ideas". It serves vital functions in a society. Mysticism is a bit trickier. It is systems of refined techniques designed to alter the consciousness of the myth-makers, to bring about elite psychological experiences, which are then expressed in the vocabulary of mythology. Every mythos/religion has mysticism at its core of cores...including the Judeo-Christian ones.

 

[Jeff Corey]

... Mysticism is a bit trickier. It is systems of refined techniques designed to alter the consciousness of the myth-makers, to bring about elite psychological experiences, which are then expressed in the vocabulary of mythology....

What the heck are "elite psychological experiences"? Usually when one defines a concept, it is expressed in words that are more readily understood than the concept itself, and not designed to obfuscate the meaning.

 

[Limbo]

That's partly why I said it's a bit trickier, lol.

It takes training and education to master the techniques. Hence the mystical core at the heart of a mythos is comprised of an elite few. Although sometimes such experiences can happen spontaneously to non-initiates with no mystical training or education. The experiences are psychological in nature.