The Parapsychological Experimenter Effect

[Robin]

Also, please comment on this one.

What exactly do you think this demonstrates?

The only psi hypothesis that was supported was 9 and it was supported on the basis of r=0.6, p=0.049 on a sample of 8. Someone needs a refresher stats course maybe?

 

[Dancing David]

You need an effect before you can block an effect.

 

[Limbo]

This is exactly what I am talking about. Why do you assume that the ability to see images watched by another would also include the ability to block or boost this ability in others?

Psi isn't an assortment of various separate abilities...psi is ONE ability, used in various ways for various goals. And it's rooted in the 'unconscious mind'. If someone can 'see' images watched by another, then that means they have every other 'psi ability' as well. Although they may have particular talents and such.

Psi means that at some level, in some way, consciousness is non-local in space and time. We are more than our bodies, more than the sum of our parts. We are One. That includes people who don't consciously believe in psi. Since psi is rooted in the unconscious, then goats can use psi without even realizing it consciously. Psi is goal-oriented, not process-oriented.

Yes, I would

There were 14 participants in this study conducting 36 experiments between them. One of the participants (responsible for 3 of the experiments) was the report author.

Hmm….

Are you suggesting fraud?

 

[fls]

Are you suggesting fraud?

I think what we are wondering is why all the problems that plague scientific research, for which we take great pains to neutralize, are assumed not to apply when it comes to parapsychology?

Linda

 

[Jeff Corey]

Psi isn't an assortment of various separate abilities...psi is NO ability...

Fixed it for you. You had a reversal and an extra E.

 

[Dancing David]

Psi isn't an assortment of various separate abilities...psi is ONE ability, used in various ways for various goals. And it's rooted in the 'unconscious mind'. If someone can 'see' images watched by another, then that means they have every other 'psi ability' as well. Although they may have particular talents and such.

Psi means that at some level, in some way, consciousness is non-local in space and time. We are more than our bodies, more than the sum of our parts. We are One. That includes people who don't consciously believe in psi. Since psi is rooted in the unconscious, then goats can use psi without even realizing it consciously. Psi is goal-oriented, not process-oriented.

That still makes no sense to me

Are you suggesting fraud?

How about bad methods and protocols?

 

[arthwollipot]

I think we're approaching this the wrong way, and I'd like to ask Limbo something, if that's all right?

Limbo, you have a firm belief in the existence of psi due to your own experiences, right? Can you describe those experiences to us? What, exactly, was it that convinced you that psi exists?

(note to mods - this may warrant a split to a new thread)

 

[Robin]

Psi isn't an assortment of various separate abilities...psi is ONE ability, used in various ways for various goals.

Oh very well then. Why do you assume that if one of the was psi can be used is to see images watched by others, that this implies that another way it can be used is to block or boost images watched by others?

And why is psi only 5% over chance and intermittent when used to view images watched by others and yes 100% effective when used by skeptics to block images watched by others?

Are you suggesting fraud?

At the very least I am suggesting that if you want to establish the hypothesis that your belief or otherwise in the paranormal correlates with your ability to psychically assist someone psychically assist someone focus on a candle then you really should ensure you are working with a sample of greater than 14, or failing that, at least ensure you are not one of those 14.

But is that is too onerous an expectation for someone wishing to establish a hypothesis that flies in the face of all accepted scientific thinking then perhaps you should simply ensure that you don't contribute more sessions to the experiment than anybody else.

Fraud? No. Laughably inadequate design and execution - well you tell me!

 

[arthwollipot]

Here's a fun game. It's called how would the world be different if psi were real"?

For a start, the intelligence industry would be revolutionised. Just train up your spies in psi and have them remote view all the secrets you want. Privacy? Pah! Obsolete. No-one would need telephones, since you could just contact people by telepathy.

Any others?

 

[Robin]

Here's a fun game. It's called how would the world be different if psi were real"?

For a start, the intelligence industry would be revolutionised. Just train up your spies in psi and have them remote view all the secrets you want. Privacy? Pah! Obsolete. No-one would need telephones, since you could just contact people by telepathy.

Any others?

Yes. How do you like it?

 

[Dancing David]

I think we're approaching this the wrong way, and I'd like to ask Limbo something, if that's all right?

Limbo, you have a firm belief in the existence of psi due to your own experiences, right? Can you describe those experiences to us? What, exactly, was it that convinced you that psi exists?

(note to mods - this may warrant a split to a new thread)

here is one such experience:
please note it does have some unsupported assertions:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4071585&postcount=115

 

[Dancing David]

Here's a fun game. It's called how would the world be different if psi were real"?

For a start, the intelligence industry would be revolutionised. Just train up your spies in psi and have them remote view all the secrets you want. Privacy? Pah! Obsolete. No-one would need telephones, since you could just contact people by telepathy.

Any others?

Despite the persecutory beliefs of some, it would be a trait that would be highly selected for in natural selection.

 

[arthwollipot]

here is one such experience:
please note it does have some unsupported assertions:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4071585&postcount=115

Ah yes, I do remember reading that. Thanks DD for reminding me. So - the memory is of things "flying around the room". However, if we read it carefully, Limbo directly saw only one thing flying - the notebook. He walked into a room where things had been moved, and assumed that it was demon activity - that the things had been thrown about by a paranormal force.

I see all the hallmarks here of the plasticity of memory. I think the girl freaked out and threw things about the room in a wild tantrum, and Limbo is remembering what he wants to remember about the incident. My prediction is that Limbo will come back and say "I know what I saw", and I'm sure he (she?) believes that. However, it has been shown time and time again that human memory is easily changed. If we were to ask any of the other participants in the event how they remember it, I would expect there to be significant differences in the details. Limbo is reinforcing his (her?) own assumptions with every recall.

The plasticity of memory is the reason why people get more and more convinced about their own interpretation of events over time. With each repetition, the interpretation is more and more embedded into the memory. The subject gets more and more convinced that they saw x - poltergeists, UFOs, the Loch Ness Monster... whatever it is that they are recalling. The longer ago the event was, the less reliable the eyewitness testimony - which is something that police departments and courts of law have known for a very long time.

 

[Rodney]

Here's a fun game. It's called how would the world be different if psi were real and infallible"?

For a start, the intelligence industry would be revolutionised. Just train up your spies in psi and have them remote view all the secrets you want. Privacy? Pah! Obsolete. No-one would need telephones, since you could just contact people by telepathy.

Any others?

Fixed your question. No need to thank me.

 

[Robin]

The "poltergeist" incident happened when I was about 17. So about 20 years ago. My friend Derrick and I went out to a little get together one Friday night, and Derricks pregnant wife Cathy stayed home at their apartment with four or five of her girlfriends.

While we were gone they played with a Ouija board, and when Derrick and I returned it was "paranormal" chaos and panic to make a long story short. Hallmarks of a "poltergeist" incident were present. Objects flying around and electrical oddities mostly. Stuff was everywhere. It was like a tornado went through. It took Derrick and I awhile to clean it all up later that night. I myself saw a notebook fly across the room toward us as we entered the apartment. There was no one there to throw it. There were no open windows for wind. No fans. I saw the lights and appliances going on and off. It was sublime.

A couple of the girls had ran off to get help, but none of the neighbors were home. Some of the girls were huddled in the bedroom closet with Cathy, screaming and crying. IIRC correctly one had locked herself in the bathroom.

I chalked it up to demons at the time. I was Christian at the time and I did my Christian duty as I saw it and said some prayers with Cathy and Derrick. It seemed to work...or at least help a bit. People calmed down and things stopped happening. Although there were a few minor incidents over the next couple of weeks. All centered on Cathy. She had nightmares for a long time.

Cathy was the focal point. When they were playing with the Ouija board, the girls thought they were talking to a benevolent spirit. But through the ideomotor effect and the Ouija board "it" told Carol it was going to kill her baby. They freaked out. Big time. That's when things started happening.

The unconscious psi, amplified by the fear and belief of the girls produced those effects. Most likely it was Cathy alone, although it's conceivable that the psi of the other girls contributed. Either that or a genuine demon/poltergeist did. Or both. As one of the witnesses to the events I don't have the luxury of writing it all off as delusion or tricky, fraud, etc, etc.

And this is not even all of the weird things I've experienced.

Ok, but there is at least one aspect that you could say was definitely a fraud. You say that the Ouija board told Carol it was going to kill her baby and you put this down to the ideomotor effect - but I have never heard of a Ouija board producing a message this clear or detailed. Even instances that are claimed to be real examples of spirit contact are fragmentary and ambiguous.

So it does seem more probable that one of the girls faked the message rather than it being unconscious ideomotor effect.

Can I also clear one thing up? You say "I myself saw a notebook fly across the room toward us as we entered the apartment. There was no one there to throw it.". (My emphasis) Put like that it sounds as though this was the only thing you saw "yourself". Is this right? I mean apart from the mess.

 

[Robin]

Fixed your question. No need to thank me.

A telephone is not infallible, but I can still use it to send messages.

Did you mean "detectable"?

 

[Limbo]

Limbo is reinforcing his (her?) own assumptions with every recall.

FYI I'm a he.

Ok, but there is at least one aspect that you could say was definitely a fraud. You say that the Ouija board told Carol it was going to kill her baby and you put this down to the ideomotor effect - but I have never heard of a Ouija board producing a message this clear or detailed. Even instances that are claimed to be real examples of spirit contact are fragmentary and ambiguous.

I don't know the exact wording of the 'message'...I only know the effect the message had on Carol. She regarded the 'presence' as a deadly threat to her baby.

So it does seem more probable that one of the girls faked the message rather than it being unconscious ideomotor effect.

Easy for you to say...you weren't there. All you can do is guess.

 

[arthwollipot]

FYI I'm a he.

Okay, thanks. Sometimes it's a little hard to tell.

 

[Limbo]

Put like that it sounds as though this was the only thing you saw "yourself". Is this right? I mean apart from the mess.

I saw the lights and some of the appliances acting strange. I saw the girls screaming, crying, panicking, I felt the atmosphere in the apartment. Very, very odd. Surreal. And of course I saw the notebook fly across the room. Derrick saw it all as well.

It's not like this incident was my only visit to the Twilight zone. I've had other experiences. 'UFO' sightings, psychic experiences, odd dreams. I've forgotten more strange experiences than many people have in their entire life. Sometimes I don't know whether it's a blessing or a curse. Sometimes I wish none of it had ever happened. That would make it easier to go through life believing what I want to believe, like so many other people. Instead, I'm limited by my experiences. I don't have the luxury of closing my eyes and cruising through life on auto-pilot. I don't have the bliss of ignorance. Instead I have the burden of responsibility.

 

[Rodney]

A telephone is not infallible, but I can still use it to send messages.

But arthwollipot said: "Just train up your spies in psi and have them remote view all the secrets you want." It can be dangerous if spies are getting even some of the secrets wrong. But maybe we can agree on "overwhelmingly accurate" rather than "infallible."

Did you mean "detectable"?

No, psi has been detectable -- and detected -- since the beginning of time.