The palestinian state we all want.

[a_unique_person]

No. I am illustrating what kind of Palestinian state we will all get. One where paramiltary jihadists are running around kidnapping journalists and attacking Israel....all in the name of "Palestinian Nationalism"...

Hmm, journalists have been know to not do too well at the end of some members of the IDF, too.

For each fault you find in some Palestinians, some Israelis seem to have it too...

 

[Darat]

Hmm, journalists have been know to not do too well at the end of some members of the IDF, too.

For each fault you find in some Palestinians, some Israelis seem to have it too...

Since Palestinians and Israelis are all human beings then of course each is capable of the same human behaviour, therefore it is not surprising that on both sides individuals and groups sometimes act in a barbaric manner.

However in this instance you are not making an analogous comparison. To do so you would have to show that there are "splinter groups" of the IDF that no longer come under the command of the Israeli army or government, that they have kidnapped journalists and the Israeli state is apparently unable (for whatever reasons) to do anything about the situation.

(Of course my opinion is based on the rather sparse article z-n linked to.)


(Edited for words.)

 

[a_unique_person]

Since Palestinians and Israelis are all human beings then of course each is capable of the same human behaviour, therefore it is not surprising that on both sides individuals and groups sometimes act in a barbaric manner.

However in this instance you are not making an analogous comparison. To do so you would have to show that there are "splinter groups" of the IDF that no longer come under the command of the Israeli army or government, that they have kidnapped journalists and the Israeli state is apparently unable (for whatever reasons) to do anything about the situation.

(Of course my opinion is based on the rather sparse article z-n linked to.)


(Edited for words.)

I linked to an article previously where an IDF commander was promoted after ordering his troops to open fire on homes, killing a Palestinian teenager, when there was no need to fire at all.

 

[Darat]

I linked to an article previously where an IDF commander was promoted after ordering his troops to open fire on homes, killing a Palestinian teenager, when there was no need to fire at all.

I've not read that piece but if your summary is correct then it demonstrates my point that on both sides people will act in a barbaric way. I am sure that no one denies that both Israelis and Palestinians have acted in barbaric ways over the years. (This does not excuse either side’s barbarism.)

However this is not directly comparable to the events as described in the article that z-n quoted from and I commented on.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I agree with you that all the evidence does point to this being a very brief but true description of what the initial state will be like

I beg to differ. For over 5 years gangs of thugs have been kidnapping and even executing people - aka "collaborators", in Gaza and the West Bank.

Despite that do you agree that a Palestinian state should happen “today”?

Sure. Why not. But what kind of state will Israel have to live beside if the PA doesn't once and for all disable the terrorist organizations? We've heard the same "promise" since 1993:

....the PA renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators...

There's an old expression Darat... it goes: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[rikzilla]

so whats the catch?

I've heard this many times but it has always ended up a hollow statement because there was always something that meant that it was a great Idea but just not right now.....

so whats the catch?

why not form the state of palestine right now...today? My thoughts are the basics would be defined boundries and no foreign armies inside of those defined boundries.

so whats the catch this time?

There are several "catches" as far as I can see. The catches do not have anything to do with how well the PA catches terrorists. They have to do simply with what the PA does officially to encourage "armed struggle"...and the declared fact that they will not stop until the last mile of Israel is reclaimed for Palestine.

The real stumbling block is not an uncertainty of where to place the borders; the deal-killer is that in order for a Palestinian state to exist the Jewish state must cease to exist.

In a sane world in which sane people make sane compromises in order to live in peace we should see a Palestinian state willing to live next to a Jewish state.

On to the catches:

Quoted from the Palestinian Charter:
Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

Article 8: The phase in their history, through which the Palestinian people are now living, is that of national (watani) struggle for the liberation of Palestine. Thus the conflicts among the Palestinian national forces are secondary, and should be ended for the sake of the basic conflict that exists between the forces of Zionism and of imperialism on the one hand, and the Palestinian Arab people on the other. On this basis the Palestinian masses, regardless of whether they are residing in the national homeland or in diaspora (mahajir) constitute - both their organizations and the individuals - one national front working for the retrieval of Palestine and its liberation through armed struggle.

Article 2 defines the border; article 8 legitimizes the jihad.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.

Article 10: Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory.

Article 9 calls for the determined continuation of the jihad until all goals are met. Article 10 calls for a forever escalating conflict.

Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.

Article 15 unambiguously calls for the destruction of Israel; and entreats the Arab peoples to help.

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

Forget about 1947 borders. Art. 19 is quite specific on the illegality of an Israel of any size.

Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

Art. 20 is codified anti-semitism. (or for those who don't like that term) anti-Jew.

Article 21: The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization.

If there was any doubt before art. 21 clears that up.

Article 22: Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland.

Art 22 firmly identifies the Zionist entity to be destroyed. The world will then be at peace...so all you peace activists out there need to get on board the peace train....never mind that it is to roll on tracks made of Jewish bones. Their peace is the peace of the grave.

Article 23: The demand of security and peace, as well as the demand of right and justice, require all states to consider Zionism an illegitimate movement, to outlaw its existence, and to ban its operations, in order that friendly relations among peoples may be preserved, and the loyalty of citizens to their respective homelands safeguarded.

Here are 11 "catches" Fool. But all they really boil down to is one: Recognise the state of Israel as a legitimate neighbor state. The first step is official removal of all language in the PA charter that refers to the destruction of Israel. From that would stem the end of official PA incitement to violence.

It would not stop the comitted terrorists, but it would be a necessary first step in quelling the violence. It's a step well within the ability of the PA to do now.

Why don't they?

-z

 

[Darat]

I beg to differ. For over 5 years gangs of thugs have been kidnapping and even executing people - aka "collaborators", in Gaza and the West Bank.

I'm very confused now, you don't think if a Palestian state was created today it would (at least initially) be chaotic and relatively badly policed state?

Sure. Why not. But what kind of state will Israel have to live beside if the PA doesn't once and for all disable the terrorist organizations? We've heard the same "promise" since 1993:

There's an old expression Darat... it goes: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

But my point is that it no longer becomes Israelis concern - to a certain extent. By that I mean (for example) if say there are a spate of suicide bombings occuring in Israel by Palestinian based terror organisations - Israel closes it's borders with the new Palestinian state, it revokes any Palestinian visas and work permits and ejects all Palestinians from Israel.

That may not sound too different then what happens now, but I believe there is a significant difference, that over a long time will result in a change in the situation. (Remember my view is that the terrorism will continue for decades, even after the founding of a Palestinian state, this is not a clean solution that means the Israelis (or the Palestinians) will live happily ever after. This is brutal pragmatism that will mean further deaths from both populations.)

 

[zenith-nadir]

I'm very confused now, you don't think if a Palestian state was created today it would (at least initially) be chaotic and relatively badly policed state?

Since 1994 the Palestinian Authority has had a chance to "pull it together". They've had chance after chance after chance to prove that they can run a state and here we are 11 years later and the Palestinian Authority is still promising to "pull it together". How long should Israel wait Darat? Another 5 years? 10? 15?...No matter what kind of state they declare it shall only be as good as the Palestinian Authority.

But my point is that it no longer becomes Israelis concern - to a certain extent. By that I mean (for example) if say there are a spate of suicide bombings occuring in Israel by Palestinian based terror organisations - Israel closes it's borders with the new Palestinian state, it revokes any Palestinian visas and work permits and ejects all Palestinians from Israel.

Been there done that.

That may not sound too different then what happens now, but I believe there is a significant difference, that over a long time will result in a change in the situation. (Remember my view is that the terrorism will continue for decades, even after the founding of a Palestinian state, this is not a clean solution that means the Israelis (or the Palestinians) will live happily ever after. This is brutal pragmatism that will mean further deaths from both populations.)

All it would really take to move forward in a real and ground-breaking way is for the Palestinian Authority to actually disable the terrorist organizations - Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa - or the terrorist organizations to disable themselves. Some here claim that is impossible given the Palestinians are simply "resisting occupation", I beg to differ from that view...I feel overt attacks made with malice aforethought by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa is in no way "resistance".

 

[CBL4]

Israel's regime is one of the most corrupt and least efficient in the Western world. In fact, the only developed country considered more corrupt and less efficient is Italy, according to data published by the World Bank.

According to Transparency International Israel ranks 26th in the world which is in fact one of the worst ranking in the Western world just ahead of Portugal but well ahead of Italy (42) and Greece (49).

To put this in proper perspective, the Palestinian Authority is below average in the developing world at 108 behind such paragons of virtue such as Russia and Uganda and tied with Libya.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html

Originally posted by the a_unique_person
Now, the only reason I mention this is becuase it is an accusation always flung at the Palestinans. I don't doubt that there is serious corruption, but I also don't see why this should be used as a reason to make them all suffer.

So the accusation is true but it is not flung at Palestinian people but the Palestinian Authority. I do agree that the Palestinians are suffering but that is because their leadership is so corrupt. It is the people who try to highlight and lessen the corruption who are trying to prevent Palestinian suffering.

CBL

 

[Darat]

Since 1994 the Palestinian Authority has had a chance to "pull it together". They've had chance after chance after chance to prove that they can run a state and here we are 11 years later and the Palestinian Authority is still promising to "pull it together". How long should Israel wait Darat? Another 5 years? 10? 15?...No matter what kind of state they declare it shall only be as good as the Palestinian Authority.Been there done that.

Which I agreed with, yet you said "I beg to differ" when I agreed with you – that was what I was finding confusing.

All it would really take to move forward in a real and ground-breaking way is for the Palestinian Authority to actually disable the terrorist organizations - Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa - or the terrorist organizations to disable themselves. Some here claim that is impossible given the Palestinians are simply "resisting occupation", I beg to differ from that view...I feel overt attacks made with malice aforethought by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa is in no way "resistance".

I also agree with you that there is no excuse for any Palestinian terrorism. (Or indeed for any terrorism I have ever heard of. I also think there can be reasons that create in some minds a justification for their actions yet their justifications do not excuse their actions.)

However where we appear to disagree is that you believe the power to decide Israeli actions should be in the hands of the Palestinians especially the terrorist groups, whereas I believe the power to decide Israeli actions for Israel should reside with the Israelis. (And vice-a-versa).

 

[zenith-nadir]

However where we appear to disagree is that you believe the power to decide Israeli actions should be in the hands of the Palestinians especially the terrorist groups, whereas I believe the power to decide Israeli actions for Israel should reside with the Israelis. (And vice-a-versa).

Allow me to put it in perspective.

Hamas: Armed struggle is sole strategy - Aug. 17, 2005 20:02

Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal declared on Wednesday that the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and northern West Bank marked the beginning of the end of the Zionist dream in Palestine.

Mashaal was speaking to reporters in Beirut and his remarks were broadcast live by a number of major Arab TV satellite stations.

Asked about Hamas's future plans, Zahar said: "Neither the liberation of the Gaza Strip, nor the liberation of the West Bank or even Jerusalem will suffice us. Hamas will pursue the armed struggle until the liberation of all our lands. We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims."

So the destruction of Israel is Hamas's goal and their leader said it plain as day...today!...as Israel is leaving Gaza.

Lets go to point two:

The Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) in Ramallah and the Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, conducted a joint survey of Palestinian and Israeli public opinion between March 8 and 13 , 2005. link here

In that survey:

48% of the Israelis believe that Israel should negotiate with Hamas if it is necessary in order to reach a compromise agreement....Among Palestinians, 79% support the participation of the Hamas in the negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and Israel compared to 19% who oppose it.

Well as we can see by Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal's statement today there is no compromise....Hamas is committed to destroy Israel...in the name of Palestinian Nationalism!... yet 79% of Palestinians want Hamas to participate in the negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and Israel...

Therefore, in closing, the power to decide Israeli actions is in the hands of the Palestinians...especially if 79% of them back Hamas who's sworn to destroy Israel.

 

[Mycroft]

I would place no conditions on Palestinians, it is not my place to be dictating conditions to people outside of my borders.I would get my army home.. Think gaza withdrawal on the west bank as well.....I would annex the large settlements around Jerusalem because I believe there would be civil war in Israel if they were not. Plus, if anyone tries to stop me in the UN the US will veto the resolution....the rest (founding a nation) is up to Palestinians. Further details can be negotiated between recognised GOVERNMENTS rather than between Israel and some occupied "authority".Any continued Attacks on Israeli citizens would be dealt with in the same manner that any other nation deals with them....according to whatever Israeli or international laws and norms apply.

Welcome to the world Palestine.....you are now responsible for your actions just as any other nation is responsible....

So your solution would be pretty close to Sharon's disengagement.

 

[mstricky]

So, if all Isrealis have to get off Palastinian land why do muslims in Britain not have to get out of our christian only for British land and why are there districts in England where I can' t walk because I would be battered and mugged for daring to walk down muslim territory streets?..If all countries have to get rid of people who have not the 'right' to be there, will there be a mass exodus back to lands we belong. If not, why is it only the Isrealis who have to move.

 

[Mycroft]

So, if all Isrealis have to get off Palastinian land why do muslims in Britain not have to get out of our christian only for British land and why are there districts in England where I can' t walk because I would be battered and mugged for daring to walk down muslim territory streets?..If all countries have to get rid of people who have not the 'right' to be there, will there be a mass exodus back to lands we belong. If not, why is it only the Isrealis who have to move.

That's a great question. Why couldn't the Israelis in Gaza stay and maybe become citizens of a future Palestinian state?

 

[Darat]

Allow me to put it in perspective.So the destruction of Israel is Hamas's goal and their leader said it plain as day...today!...as Israel is leaving Gaza.

I agree this is a terrible and unsupported under any circumstances goal.

Lets go to point two:

In that survey:Well as we can see by Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal's statement today there is no compromise....Hamas is committed to destroy Israel...in the name of Palestinian Nationalism!... yet 79% of Palestinians want Hamas to participate in the negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and Israel...

Therefore, in closing, the power to decide Israeli actions is in the hands of the Palestinians...especially if 79% of them back Hamas who's sworn to destroy Israel.

We fundamentally disagree over this point.

What I see in how you paint the situation is that Hamas is being able to control Israel’s actions or at least heavily influence them. It is my opinion (and I know no why of proving it) that is a grave error that is wrong for both the Palestinian and the Israeli populations if Israel continues to allow its enemies to dictate its policies.

I believe that "unilateral withdrawal" (which I actually find a strange way of putting it) from Gaza is a brave move and is an example of not allowing the terrorists such as Hamas dictate Israeli policy. I believe that if there is any one of intelligence in an organisation like Hamas they will realise that the "withdrawal" is a blow against their "strategy" and powerbase.

These are justopinions and I freely admit I can’t point to solid evidence to support them. They have been influenced by my understanding of various conflicts throughout the world and how these have and have not been resolved and my knowledge of the current situation in Israel and the “Palestine”.

 

[The Fool]

So your solution would be pretty close to Sharon's disengagement.

yes, except for all the bits that are nowhere near it....

 

[The Fool]

That's a great question. Why couldn't the Israelis in Gaza stay and maybe become citizens of a future Palestinian state?

I don't see that as a problem at all, I think I remember seeing an article that there are a few planning to stay. Do you think there would be a significant number who would stay?

They would have to get used to not being able to contol the electricity and water and such things....they would have to live on a Palestinians share rather than a settlers share.

 

[a_unique_person]

Allow me to put it in perspective.So the destruction of Israel is Hamas's goal and their leader said it plain as day...today!...as Israel is leaving Gaza.

Lets go to point two:

In that survey:Well as we can see by Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal's statement today there is no compromise....Hamas is committed to destroy Israel...in the name of Palestinian Nationalism!... yet 79% of Palestinians want Hamas to participate in the negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and Israel...

Therefore, in closing, the power to decide Israeli actions is in the hands of the Palestinians...especially if 79% of them back Hamas who's sworn to destroy Israel.

Yet if we go back to the time of Oslo, Hamas was nowhere near the force it is now, for all his faults, Arafat and the PA had effective control of the Paliestinians. Sharon has only just now realised what a huge mistake he made back then, in defying every call to end the settlement expansion program that he was the 'father' of. But he has also painted Israel into a corner. Whichever way it moves, it loses. And not just Israel, but the Palestinians as well, are the losers, now a radical group like Hamas calls the shots, not a secular group.

For the all the jibes about 'Arafat not missing a chance to miss a chance', exactly the same accusation can be made of Israel, or, more precisely, the extremists like Sharon, who were effectively calling the tune. The longer the stubborn resistance to a peaceful negotiation, in good faith, that is, withough expanding settlements, the worse the situation has become for everyone.

 

[CapelDodger]

I think there should be a Palestinian state and I think the Palestinians should declare it now, and if they want declare it with "disputed" territory with its neighbours, and also create all the trappings of a state. Israel then should agree to recognise the bits it is comfortable with and declare the other bits "disputed".

But that would make conflict inherent in the future. It's what happened in 1948. It exactly describes the Oslo Accords, where "final status talks" would resolve the outstanding issues, such as Israel's borders. There was a drastic fall-off in violence between 1993 and 2000, but the Israeli electorate elected Netenyahu, who emphatically and repeatedly rejected the principle of a Palestinian State and the Oslo Accords in particular. So the talks went nowhere, because that's what a majority of Israelis wanted. Eventually conflict broke out again, worse than ever.

Israeli policy has actually worked, the Palestinians have been beaten down enough to want peace and security. Which they don't get offered by Israel. Hamas flowered after Oslo, which involved a freezing of the settlements, in an environment of constantly expanding settlements issuing increasingly radical neo-Judaic rhetoric. If a Palestinian State were to be formed, what guarantee do the Palestinians have that those voices will not be heard by a future Israeli Prime Minister - Netenyahu, perhaps, or a Sharon the Younger - who will redefine the Palestinian State as their god's gift?

Arafat first talked of a two-state solution in 1950, when he realised that the Arab states' only real concern was to keep a lid on all the displaced Palestinians they were saddled with. Nobody except some Palestinians wanted a Palestinian State, and certainly not Israel. Israel was in the process of making the Palestinians never to have existed. Israel could have done a deal with Jordan and recognised the West Bank as Jordanian, with Jordan taking responsibility for all the refugees, but they still had their eyes on it for themselves. And now they have it. As Moshe Dayan put it in 1967, "We have achieved acceptable borders, except in Lebanon". That did include the Gaza Strip, of course, but Dayan was Labour and Sharon's Likud. Likud invaded Lebanon, Labour evacuated it. Labour signed up for Oslo, Likud abrogated it. Pass-the-Buck Democracy.

Of course, quite a few Israelis will still have their eyes on the Gaza Strip, even after withdrawal. There will now be Jewish "refugee camps" within Israel, gnawing on their victimhood and obligation to return. One thing about the zionist project, it was never going to uneventful and a rich vein of irony would run through it.

 

[CapelDodger]

For the all the jibes about 'Arafat not missing a chance to miss a chance', exactly the same accusation can be made of Israel, or, more precisely, the extremists like Sharon, who were effectively calling the tune. The longer the stubborn resistance to a peaceful negotiation, in good faith, that is, withough expanding settlements, the worse the situation has become for everyone.

When history students a century hence read about zionism, that will be the main theme. How could they pursue such folly? Much like the theme of Europe stumbling into the Great War.

Sharon has been forced, by power, to realise the limits of that power. They aren't military, they're financial. If Israel doesn't become self-supporting soon, when faeces hit the global fan their position will be untenable. Not spending a fortune to grow tomatoes in the Gaza Strip - how ludicrous an exercise is that? - has to be a no-brainer. There are only 8,000 settlers there, and the scary demographics won't kick in before he retires. Or is retired ...