The palestinian state we all want.

The Fool [/i][B] once again you missed by a country mile. I said I would demonstrate the absurdity of your conditions if I could find out what they are....I may fall short said:
I believe the suggestion that continuing violence should put a stop to Palistinian aspirations of nationhood will be one of the more popular suggestions in this thread....
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No, that's your most popular continued misrepresentation of your opponents views.

Nobody said that violence should completely stop.

Many people have said the Palestinian Authority should stop promoting the violence and make a good faith effort to arrest those that do it.

Why can't you understand the difference?
 
Darat said:
Unfortunately it's not about making peace; it is about facing up to the reality of the situation.
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Darat,

Both sides have a responsibility to "face up to the reality" of the situation. That includes the Palestinians.

Part of that reality is recognizing that encouraging your children to blow themselves up to kill Israelis does not build trust with the Israelis.

You can't place the entire burden on just one people and expect them to be able to resolve a conflict. The Palestinians must play a role in creating peace too.
 
The Palestinians have a chance to show that they can rule Gaza in a non-corrupt, non-violent manner that provides increasing security and well being of the Gaza Palestinians. They could use this opportunity to show that they can be responsible, decent people who are mostly willing to live in peace. They could use this opportunity to make life easier for the Gazans.

They could. They really could, if enough of them want it. That's the real catch. Enough of them must want it enough to prevent the murderers and politicians from continuing the status quo of wanton murder and corruption. They could turn out to protest corruption and every terrorist attack. They could turn murderer in. They could stop providing support of any kind to the terrorists. They could elect peaceful politicians who promote education and economic growth. It's possible, it really is. They have a peaceful future in their grasp but they have peace in their grasp numerous times before.

I would love to see it but I do not expect it. I think most people in the world share my view.

CBL
 
Mycroft said:
Darat,

Both sides have a responsibility to "face up to the reality" of the situation. That includes the Palestinians.

Part of that reality is recognizing that encouraging your children to blow themselves up to kill Israelis does not build trust with the Israelis.

You can't place the entire burden on just one people and expect them to be able to resolve a conflict. The Palestinians must play a role in creating peace too.
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As I’ve said if you are making "trust" (which I find a rather nebulous term in the context of nation states) a prerequisite then all the evidence is that it will not happen and therefore the situation will not change.

If either side waits on the other to comply with their requests that the other side changes before they take steps the situation will not change. That is why I think the “withdrawal” by Israel from the Gaza strip is a fantastic move on behalf of the Israel population; it alters the situation which can allow change.
 
It`s ok really...as the settlers know, the IDF are trained to sit down and enjoy a relaxing cuppa, chewing the fat with the prospective new entrants to the housing market before helping them move their stuff out and giving them a lift to the nearest estate agents.
 
Mycroft said:


Nobody said that violence should completely stop.

Many people have said the Palestinian Authority should stop promoting the violence and make a good faith effort to arrest those that do it.

Why can't you understand the difference?
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Do you read what I write?...I said that the continuing violence will be used as a reason for not progressing....I have not said that people have claimed the violence should completely stop. I can only type simple statements, the onus is on you to read them before you reply.

"stop promoting violence" and "make good faith efforts"....how are those measured, how is a pass or fail awarded?

The point that I am making is that it is very easy to set etherial unmeasurable and basically silly pre-conditions to moving ahead...
 
The Fool said:
Do you read what I write?...I said that the continuing violence will be used as a reason for not progressing....I have not said that people have claimed the violence should completely stop. I can only type simple statements, the onus is on you to read them before you reply.

"stop promoting violence" and "make good faith efforts"....how are those measured, how is a pass or fail awarded?

The point that I am making is that it is very easy to set etherial unmeasurable and basically silly pre-conditions to moving ahead...
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If you were appointed emperor of Israel today, with full totalitarian authority to do anything you wanted, what would your conditions be? What would you ask of the Palestinians before giving them a state?
 
Freakshow said:
If you were appointed emperor of Israel today, with full totalitarian authority to do anything you wanted, what would your conditions be? What would you ask of the Palestinians before giving them a state?
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I would place no conditions on Palestinians, it is not my place to be dictating conditions to people outside of my borders.I would get my army home.. Think gaza withdrawal on the west bank as well.....I would annex the large settlements around Jerusalem because I believe there would be civil war in Israel if they were not. Plus, if anyone tries to stop me in the UN the US will veto the resolution....the rest (founding a nation) is up to Palestinians. Further details can be negotiated between recognised GOVERNMENTS rather than between Israel and some occupied "authority".Any continued Attacks on Israeli citizens would be dealt with in the same manner that any other nation deals with them....according to whatever Israeli or international laws and norms apply.

Welcome to the world Palestine.....you are now responsible for your actions just as any other nation is responsible....
 
From The Fool:
it is very easy to set etherial unmeasurable and basically silly pre-conditions to moving ahead...
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You could hardly be more right, and we could argue ad nauseam about which side has scored more points in the pre-conditions game. I’d say it’s a comfortable win for the Palestinians (…right to return…), though well contested.

Some forward-thinking individuals with influence are doing their best to abandon the game and move ahead to practical negotiations, and more power to them.

Abu Mazen is so far doing a reasonable job of resisting pressures to continue the game, and plainly we also have to include Sharon. It may stick in your throat to admit that (to be honest it does in mine a bit), but it’s the fact.
 
The Fool said:
I would place no conditions on Palestinians, it is not my place to be dictating conditions to people outside of my borders.I would get my army home.. Think gaza withdrawal on the west bank as well.....I would annex the large settlements around Jerusalem because I believe there would be civil war in Israel if they were not. Plus, if anyone tries to stop me in the UN the US will veto the resolution....the rest (founding a nation) is up to Palestinians. Further details can be negotiated between recognised GOVERNMENTS rather than between Israel and some occupied "authority".Any continued Attacks on Israeli citizens would be dealt with in the same manner that any other nation deals with them....according to whatever Israeli or international laws and norms apply.

Welcome to the world Palestine.....you are now responsible for your actions just as any other nation is responsible....
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Fair enough.

Grant me a couple things here, just so I can see how you would look at the situation.

What if you truly believed that the PA was going to do little or nothing to stop terrorism against Israel after the new state was formed? And what if you truly believed that you could do more to stop terrorism in the Palestinian lands the way they are now, instead of their being their own soveriegn nation?

If you believed those, would you still want to give them their own state?

(Again, these aren't necessarily my views on the matter, but I am just trying to see what your views would be on this. I am guessing that the list I have above has a lot to do with why no Palestinian state has been granted yet, whether that is the official story or not.)
 
Freakshow said:
Fair enough.

Grant me a couple things here, just so I can see how you would look at the situation.

What if you truly believed that the PA was going to do little or nothing to stop terrorism against Israel after the new state was formed? And what if you truly believed that you could do more to stop terrorism in the Palestinian lands the way they are now, instead of their being their own soveriegn nation?

If you believed those, would you still want to give them their own state?

(Again, these aren't necessarily my views on the matter, but I am just trying to see what your views would be on this. I am guessing that the list I have above has a lot to do with why no Palestinian state has been granted yet, whether that is the official story or not.)
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My opinions would vary if I believed things I don't believe now....If I belived that Palestinians were aliens come to earth to eat my brain? Not trying to be tooooooo sarcastic but I don't see much value in discussing what my views would be if I held certain beliefs.....
 
The Fool said:
My opinions would vary if I believed things I don't believe now....If I belived that Palestinians were aliens come to earth to eat my brain? Not trying to be tooooooo sarcastic but I don't see much value in discussing what my views would be if I held certain beliefs.....
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My point was just simply to see if you could understand (not agree with, but understand) the view of those in the Israeli government who do not want to grant a Palestinian state at this time, due to security concerns.
 
Freakshow said:
My point was just simply to see if you could understand (not agree with, but understand) the view of those in the Israeli government who do not want to grant a Palestinian state at this time, due to security concerns.
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well yes, I certainly can understand that viewpoint. Can't say I can see any chain of logic behind it but.....everyone is entitled to thier opinions....
 
CBL4 said:
The Palestinians have a chance to show that they can rule Gaza in a non-corrupt, non-violent manner that provides increasing security and well being of the Gaza Palestinians. They could use this opportunity to show that they can be responsible, decent people who are mostly willing to live in peace. They could use this opportunity to make life easier for the Gazans.

CBL
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/608423.html

Israel's regime is one of the most corrupt and least efficient in the Western world. In fact, the only developed country considered more corrupt and less efficient is Italy, according to data published by the World Bank.
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Now, the only reason I mention this is becuase it is an accusation always flung at the Palestinans. I don't doubt that there is serious corruption, but I also don't see why this should be used as a reason to make them all suffer.
 
The Fool said:
well yes, I certainly can understand that viewpoint. Can't say I can see any chain of logic behind it but.....everyone is entitled to thier opinions....
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Give it up freakshow. ;)

As you can plainly see:

Palestinian Nationalism = 1972 murder of 11 of Israel's Olympic athletes in Munich, the 1973 murder of the American ambassador to Sudan, Cleo Noel, and the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruiseship.

Palestinian Nationalism = SwissAir flight 330, bound for Tel Aviv, is bombed in mid-flight by PFLP, PLO terrorists attack an Israeli schoolbus with bazooka fire, killing nine pupils and three teachers from Moshav Avivim, TWA, Pan-Am, and BOAC airplanes are hijacked by PLO terrorists, PLO terrorists infiltrate from Lebanon hold children hostage in Ma'alot school, 26 people, 21 of them children, are killed.

Palestinian Nationalism = Fatah terrorists take over a bus on the Haifa-Tel Aviv highway and kill 21 Israelis, the Karine-A, a ship loaded with 50 tons of mortars, rocket launchers, anti-tank mines and other weapons, Palestinian suicide bombers on buses, in restaurants, shopping malls, nightclubs, pizzarias...

Can't say I can see any chain of logic behind it either... they're simply "resisiting occupation"...:rolleyes:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Now, the only reason I mention this is becuase it is an accusation always flung at the Palestinans. I don't doubt that there is serious corruption, but I also don't see why this should be used as a reason to make them all suffer.
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How about you post the relevent paragraph from the article.
The government corruption index compares the public's perception on whether government power is used to promote private interests. Israel again scored 80.8 percent, compared to an average 91.4 percent average among developed nations.
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Meanwhile as a_u_p and the fool question why terrorism is bad and shouldn't be excused for Palestinian Nationalism:
France threatens to stop aid to PA - Aug. 17, 2005 0:17

France has threatened to halt financial and humanitarian aid to the Palestinian Authority unless a French journalist who was kidnapped in Gaza City earlier this week is freed unharmed.

PA officials said the threat was delivered to the PA on behalf of French President Jacques Chirac, who is "extremely disturbed" by the abduction.

In a related development, three Palestinian journalists were attacked on Monday night by unidentified assailants north of Khan Yunis.

Unidentified gunmen on Sunday night kidnapped the French journalist who was in the Gaza Strip to cover the disengagement, prompting some foreign TV crews to leave the area out of fear for their lives.

More than 80 non-governmental organizations on Tuesday called for the immediate release of Ouathi. They also urged the PA to arrest the kidnappers and bring them to trial.
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There's the Palestinian state we'll all get.
 
zenith-nadir given your last post am I correct in stating that you do not wish there to be a Palestinian state?
 
Darat said:
zenith-nadir given your last post am I correct in stating that you do not wish there to be a Palestinian state?
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No. I am illustrating what kind of Palestinian state we will all get. One where paramiltary jihadists are running around kidnapping journalists and attacking Israel....all in the name of "Palestinian Nationalism"...
 
zenith-nadir said:
No. I am illustrating what kind of Palestinian state we will all get. One where paramiltary jihadists are running around kidnapping journalists and attacking Israel....all in the name of "Palestinian Nationalism"...
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I agree with you that all the evidence does point to this being a very brief but true description of what the initial state will be like (albeit I think the description misses out on some very important things, like there will be a lot of moderates).

Despite that do you agree that a Palestinian state should happen “today”?
 
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