The palestinian state we all want.

[The Fool]

It will take more time to see that PA is sincere and committed to this effort.

How much time? This is one of the classic catches.....you can have all you aspire to, at some unspecified time in the future as long as you sign off on the permanent presence of the IDF in your state.

would you sign off on the occupying army staying for as long as the occupying army wished....no matter what you were promised?

 

[RandFan]

Re: Re: catch 22

good point....why not just declare a state....do you think Israel would recognise it and withdraw its army from it? if not, why not?

So you are the one with the catch. No declaration of a state because Israel would not recognize it.

Could the problems be more than one sided?

 

[Grammatron]

Hmmmm, can I ask what "answer to israel means" I sort of think it means no nation.....is that a fair assumption? You don't have to join mycrofts list of people that supports the creation of a palestinian nation if you don't want to. you could even join the "ok, but not for at least a couple of generations" ticket ....

I was joking to highlight the absurdities of the statement you inferred from my post, actually.

All the "Catch" I expect is for Palestine to show they don't tollerate terrorist group who want to attack Israel for Palestinina borders, that is all. They don't have to have amazing success they just shouldn't turn a blind eye. It certainly won't be an easy task, but, at least to me it seems they are trying to accomplish it.

 

[Mycroft]

How much time? This is one of the classic catches.....you can have all you aspire to, at some unspecified time in the future as long as you sign off on the permanent presence of the IDF in your state.

would you sign off on the occupying army staying for as long as the occupying army wished....no matter what you were promised?

Do you realize your argument is essentially that any Israeli demand whatsoever no matter how reasonable or small is unacceptable?

Just thought I'd point that out.

Feel free to prove me wrong by providing a list of Israeli demands you think are reasonable. Like maybe asking the Palestinians -not to arrest any terrorist, because that would be auto-oppression- but to possibly consider easing up on their campaign of promoting murder of Jews?

Naw, unreasonable!

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: The palestinian state we all want.

You do realize that just one would be an improvement, don't you? Don't you think it's kinda disengenuous to whine that they can't catch as many as Israel because they don't have the resources when they've never even tried to get any?

what were the PA shooting at?

But anyway.....you support the creation of a palestinian state...so you must support the withdrawal of the IDF or does your vision of an independent state include an army of occupation?

 

[The Fool]

Do you realize your argument is essentially that any Israeli demand whatsoever no matter how reasonable or small is unacceptable?

do you realise that is your summary of my argument which, normally, are not withing a country mile of my argument.
Just thought I'd point that out.

I have no problems with Israeli demands....just tell me what they are. Do you know what they are?


Feel free to prove me wrong by providing a list of Israeli demands you think are reasonable. Like maybe asking the Palestinians -not to arrest any terrorist, because that would be auto-oppression- but to possibly consider easing up on their campaign of promoting murder of Jews?

Naw, unreasonable!

take some care to stay on topic.....

again...you want me to outline Israeli demands...I don't know what they are. I have never seen a list, have you? you support the creation of a palestinian state so you must have some ideas under what circumstances? or was the quote I started this whole thread on just hollow rhetoric?

to be honest, rather doubt you wish to see a palestinian state. I will demonstrate this by pointing out the absurdities of the conditions you require for your support...If I could ever find out what those conditions are.

 

[Mycroft]

to be honest, rather doubt you wish to see a palestinian state. I will demonstrate this by pointing out the absurdities of the conditions you require for your support...If I could ever find out what those conditions are.

Do you realize you just simultaneously called my "conditions" absurd while saying you don't know what they are?

I have no conditions at all. None.

I suspect the Israelis have some conditions. If one of them happens to be that the Palestinian Authority make efforts to stop the various militants from killing Jews, I think that's reasonable.

All the rest is just details.

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: Re: catch 22

So you are the one with the catch. No declaration of a state because Israel would not recognize it.

Could the problems be more than one sided?

well...is there any real point in declaring a state that contains a hostile army? I could proclaim myself King of England If I wished....but I would need a certain amount of co-operation from the british to ascend the throne

the problem is most definitely not one sided....and Isreael would not have to recognise the state if they didn't want to...just get thier army out of it.

 

[The Fool]

Do you realize you just simultaneously called my "conditions" absurd while saying you don't know what they are?

I have no conditions at all. None.

I suspect the Israelis have some conditions. If one of them happens to be that the Palestinian Authority make efforts to stop the various militants from killing Jews, I think that's reasonable.

All the rest is just details.

once again you missed by a country mile. I said I would demonstrate the absurdity of your conditions if I could find out what they are....I may fall short, who knows....I may never actually pin you down to a position, I may fail, I may succeed

But now you say you have no conditions? So you are calling for the removal of the IDF?...or is that one of the nonexistent conditions? The IDF stays?

 

[Darat]

I think there should be a Palestinian state and I think the Palestinians should declare it now, and if they want declare it with "disputed" territory with its neighbours, and also create all the trappings of a state. Israel then should agree to recognise the bits it is comfortable with and declare the other bits "disputed".

Then they can spend another 100 years arguing and killing each other over the disputed bits, and if you don't think that will happen have a look at any of the recent (past 100 years) nations that have been created in somewhat analogous circumstances.

The fact that there will be continuing violence doesn’t mean that the “Palestinian State” shouldn’t happen. After all there is only one solution that would stop all future violence, which is the genocide of one or both of the participating populations. It is a fact that there will be continuing violence between the two populations for a long time to come no matter what happens and anyone who states that all violence (however you define that violence) must end (from either population or both) before other changes can or should happen are denying reality.

 

[The Fool]

I think there should be a Palestinian state and I think the Palestinians should declare it now, and if they want declare it with "disputed" territory with its neighbours, and also create all the trappings of a state. Israel then should agree to recognise the bits it is comfortable with and declare the other bits "disputed".

Isn't this already the case? Leaving out Jordan which I don't think Israel disputes, the remainder of the original mandate is either Israel or "disputed". Even this "disputed" land is referred to habitually as "Israeli land" by many...

The fact that there will be continuing violence doesn’t mean that the “Palestinian State” shouldn’t happen.

I believe the suggestion that continuing violence should put a stop to Palistinian aspirations of nationhood will be one of the more popular suggestions in this thread....If members have already proposed this or are thinking of proposing this could they also explain why it was not appropriate to attach this condition to terrorists targeting the British and Palestinians prior to the creation of Israel. were they "rewarded for terrorism" with a state?

 

[zenith-nadir]

It's realy simple. The "catch" for a final settlement includes the Israelis’ confidence in the ability of the Palestinian leadership to crack down on terrorism.

Now let's drive that one point home.

The Palestinian Authority used to be called the PLO. The PLO was a terrorist and criminal enterprise which was responsible for international terrorism, extortion, payoffs, assasinations, illegal arms-dealing, drug trafficking, money laundering, bombings and two bloody civil wars. In fact Arafat and his affiliates became innovators in a tactic later refined by al Qaeda: the civilian airliner as terror weapon - (see: Black September). This international terror spree continued for decades. So as you can see Israel is suspicious of the Palestinians, and with just cause.

But lets forget that for a sec and move into the present.

Arafat and the government of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin signed the Oslo Accords of 1993 and the PLO became the Palestinian Authority. As we all know the Palestinian Authority reneged on its promises of democratic reform and establishment of the rule of law, it never revised the Palestinian National Charter, the education system continued to instill hatred for Jews and called for the destruction of Israel, terrorist activity also proceeded unchecked the PA ineffectual in halting it — when not encouraging it outright. One cannot ignore the Palestinian Authority's poor performance and abysmal record, whether in human rights, institution building, enforcing law and order or tackling corruption. Hell even Hamas and Islamic Jihad attack the PA these days because it is so ineffectual.

So... in summary.... the catch to the end of the conflict and the creation of a Palestinian state requires a changed relationship and mutual trust between Israelis and Palestinians. That change must come from the Palestinians, once it does then a state is possible.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

So... in summary.... the catch to the end of the conflict and the creation of a Palestinian state requires a changed relationship and mutual trust between Israelis and Palestinians. That change must come from the Palestinians, once it does then a state is possible.

I disagree - many nations live day to day with incredible levels of mistrust between them.

If this "trust" is a prerequisite for change then nothing will ever change. In the real world changes like this just do not happen (or rather the evidence is that they don’t) and we are therefore left with the only end to the situation being the total destruction of one or both of the populations.

 

[webfusion]

in ten days

T-F says that my catch is 'maybe in a few generations' ---

That is not accurate.
My exact quote: "Let another few generations go along while living behind the security barrier and then we shall see if their vile hatred and suicidal tendencies are in check." and then --- "This generation of Palestinians is certainly so full of venom that they cannot function as a peaceful neighbor to Israel."

Living behind a security barrier does not preclude a State.
The Palestinians can live behind the Gaza fences and have their State. I have no problem with this at all. In fact, I would encourage them to take baby steps before taking the big steps. Even Arafat used to say that he would immediately declare a Palestinian State on any part of occupied territory that was evacuated by the Israelis.
The current head of the Palestinian Authority has the perfect and unique chance to do exactly that, but will not.

Personally, I feel Palestinians can begin with all of Gaza as their New Palestine State, starting today even, that is perfectly acceptable for me. They can use that as the starting point to demonstrate a willingness to establish peaceful neighborliness. Israel has given the go-ahead for a deep-water port, the re-opening of the Gaza airport, the issuance of tens of thousands of work permits in Israel, a plan for high-speed connection to the West Bank (Western New Palestine --- as Western Old Palestine has already been usurped).
The borders of this coastal New Palestine State are clearly marked, with barbed wire and crossing points.


But, I would challenge anyone to show anything in the way of evidence that indicates a general lack of venom or any intent to operate the New Palestine State as a de-militarized entity with official sanctions against terrorism.


Now, what do we see being offered in the way of reconciliation by the Palestinians and what does Israel have to anticipate for the future?

• The implementation of the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip marks “the beginning of the end for Israel,” said Hamas political bureau chief, Khaled Mashaal.

"Today Gaza and tomorrow the West Bank and later every inch of the land."

That's quite a "catch" -- in case anyone missed it over the course of the last 50 years.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I disagree - many nations live day to day with incredible levels of mistrust between them.

When I meant "trust" I meant in the context of ZERO terror attacks by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa, etc.

 

[Darat]

When I meant "trust" I meant in the context of ZERO terror attacks by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa, etc.

My statement still holds, if that is a prerequisite for change then it won’t happen and there is no possible solution.

 

[zenith-nadir]

My statement still holds, if that is a prerequisite for change then it won’t happen and there is no possible solution.

So then Israel must make peace with the Palestinians while Palestinian paramilitary groups are firing on Israel? Especially after leaving the Gaza Strip? Am I paraphrasing correctly?

 

[Darat]

So then Israel must make peace with the Palestinians while Palestinian paramilitary groups are firing on Israel? Especially after leaving the Gaza Strip? Am I paraphrasing correctly?

Unfortunately it's not about making peace; it is about facing up to the reality of the situation.

My opinion is that a Palestinian state should exist, if that state was then stupid enough to make war with Israel then it would be responsible for the consequences of that war.

At the moment it is my opinion that the fact that there isn't even nominally an independent Palestinian state gives the murderous groups like Hamas a tool to further their ends, which as we all know are not just the creation of a country called Palestine but the destruction of Israel.

As I posted earlier I think the best that can be hoped for in this situation is decades of “low level” terrorism (Palestinian but also others who wish Israel’s destruction) aimed at Israel even after a Palestinian state is formed. It’s a sad thought.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Unfortunately it's not about making peace; it is about facing up to the reality of the situation.

I agree. And the reality is that there are hard-core islamic fundamentalist groups sworn to Israel's destruction. Namely, Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

At the moment it is my opinion that the fact that there isn't even nominally an independent Palestinian state gives the murderous groups like Hamas a tool to further their ends, which as we all know are not just the creation of a country called Palestine but the destruction of Israel.

It's really a catch 22. Hamas and Islamic Jihad attack Israel "in the name of Palestinian Nationalism" yet the Palestinian Authority is rarely held accountable - on the world stage - for the acts of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. 79% of Palestinians support the participation of Hamas in the negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and Israel, (link), yet Hamas is listed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and Israel.....

As I posted earlier I think the best that can be hoped for in this situation is decades of “low level” terrorism (Palestinian but also others who wish Israel’s destruction) aimed at Israel even after a Palestinian state is formed. It’s a sad thought.

Especially if you are Israeli.

 

[Luke T.]

UN partition plan, 1947