The Oldest Religious Structures & Ancient Aliens?

[Vortigern99]

In the one-and-only art history class I ever took, the instructor argued that it wasn't a question of skill but a question of what the creator of the work found important or significant. Thus the Venus of Willendorf has huge breasts and hips and a protruding belly to emphasize her fecundity. The Egyptians always drew the eye as if it were facing toward the viewer, and the face in profile, because those were the most characteristic and easily recognized aspects of those features.

Not saying I bought it completely (although it did make sense in some cases, like the Egyptians), but that's what she said.

None of that is untrue or invalid, it's just that it's also, in addition to the aforesaid, a question of technical skill.

Obviously the sculptor of the Venus of Willendorf, c. 25000 BCE, was not working with the same level of technical and manual skill and knowledge as the sculptor of, for example, the Dying Gaul c. 220 BCE or the Laocoon group from c. 40 BCE. Examine the pieces for yourself and I think you'll see what I mean.

 

[pakeha]

People underestimate what can be acheived with simple tools such as levers, Pulleys, wheels and whips.

And especially whips.

...Meanwhile, not to (intentionally) muddy the waters, but I want to point out that the hypothesis that the people who built Gobekli-Tepe were early farmers, and not settled hunter-gatherers, has not been conclusively shown. That is merely one possibility, supported by evidence for agriculture found on a nearby mountain-top, believed to belong to the same period. There is as yet no conclusive evidence that either one came before the other.

In short, the builders of Gobekli-Tepe may have been permanently-settled hunter-gatherers, or they may have been early agriculturalists. It is unknown which.

Or they may have been at some transitional stage - after all, it is unlikely that the two modes of life were completely discrete at the margins.

That sounds much more reasonable than to call the builders hunter-gatherers. I'm aware the DNA data are still being assessed and yes, I overstated my claim the builders were early farmers.

This interactive painting at Nat Geo depicts and describes, in fairly close detail, the most likely ways in which human beings would have quarried, worked and transported the stone, carried water to the workers from rainwater cisterns, etc. etc. It's cantankerously fascinating!

The linked page opens to a "Full View of a Gobeli Tepe Temple". Just click on the painting to view it more closely; each close-up will be accompanied by text explaining the current theories on the engineering, architecture and purposes of the site.

Note that there are relatively few creatures of extraterrestrial origin included in the painting, and no gods visible to the naked eye.

Off to watch!

 

[!Kaggen]

Can you provide a source for "domestic grains [being] found higher up in the geological strata compared to the structures"? Wiki is saying "no traces of domesticated plants or animals have been found". Lots of animal bones -- "Butchered bones ... from local game such as deer, gazelle, pigs, and geese ... derived from hunting and food prepared for the congregants" -- but no domesticated beasties, and no domestic grains. The sources cited for these assertions are Peters & Schmidt 2004, 207 and The Guardian report 23 April 2008.

I'd also like a source for the "depictions of agriculture production of grains on the structures". This information, if legitimate, certainly bears further investigation!

I went and reviewed my source ( Prof. Lewis-Williams - Inside the Neolithic Mind) and it was not the domestication of grains, but animals. Sorry. The author argued that the depictions on the structures of the relationship between people and animals was less hunter and hunted but more ritualistic and indicative of the keeping of animals for more abstract purposes such as status. . The author argues that these relationships depicted are similar to relationships that current day hunter gatherers such as the San Bushman, of whom he is a world authority, have with the animals and that these relationships could have led to the domestication of these animals to re-enforce the ritual nature of the relationship. The latter consequence of this would have been the more obvious further breeding of these animals for food and clothes.

The relationship between hallucinations and this argument is the frequent visions of recognizable animals, albeit modified, experienced by current hunter-gatherers under the influence. The relationships in these visions is also less hunter hunted and more abstract "power", "spiritual" , ritualistic.

The full details of Prof. Lewis-Williams argument is probably better read first hand.

I find it most convincing especially since it thoroughly eliminates all the arguments of aliens and/or divine intervention.

 

[Elizabeth I]

None of that is untrue or invalid, it's just that it's also, in addition to the aforesaid, a question of technical skill.

Obviously the sculptor of the Venus of Willendorf, c. 25000 BCE, was not working with the same level of technical and manual skill and knowledge as the sculptor of, for example, the Dying Gaul c. 220 BCE or the Laocoon group from c. 40 BCE. Examine the pieces for yourself and I think you'll see what I mean.

Do you think this discussion would support a new thread? I don't want to derail this one any more than it already has been. If you're willing, I'll start one over in History and the Arts.

 

[Dancing David]

That sounds much more reasonable than to call the builders hunter-gatherers. I'm aware the DNA data are still being assessed and yes, I overstated my claim the builders were early farmers.

Part of it is the blurry line between seasonal horticulture and early agriculture, you can have seasonal settlement specially in the fall and winter which will be based around seasonal harvest of a horticultural resource and the transition to early agriculture, and much depends upon the definition.

Usually agriculture requites some sort of tilling or specific field preparation, but horticulture is the other end of a continuum, you can horticulture and plant trees and shrubs and practice reseeding of crops.

So much of it will depend on the distinction between reseeding and actual field preparation.

And unless they are using specific stone tools to engage in field preparation teh evidence of the difference is going to be scant.

So you can have heavy settlement of a roaming horticultural society that engages in HG and horticulture that build permanent structures and even supports some storage technologies.

And then you have emergent agriculture, but it takes both the field preparation and storage technologies together to create an agrarian society.

 

[Dancing David]

The author argued that the depictions on the structures of the relationship between people and animals was less hunter and hunted but more ritualistic and indicative of the keeping of animals for more abstract purposes such as status.

And that is speculation, you would need some markers of distinction to make those claims.

 

[Dinwar]

I went and reviewed my source ( Prof. Lewis-Williams - Inside the Neolithic Mind) and it was not the domestication of grains, but animals. Sorry.

Thanks! Always good to have more information.

 

[tsig]

How does one explain the interesting artifacts while simultaneously ignoring them?

Interesting that....

ask Pixy Misa his got consciousness well covered in that respect.

First, I asked you not Pixy Misa.

Second, my question had nothing to do with consciousness.

You didn't just dodge the question, you double dodged it.

 

[Vortigern99]

Do you think this discussion would support a new thread? I don't want to derail this one any more than it already has been. If you're willing, I'll start one over in History and the Arts.

Sure! I'm game. I'll probably wind up repeating myself, quoting from the posts here, but I'll try to use other concrete examples from Roman, Byzantine, etc. artwork.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

"Rember" the Alzheimer's treatment ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rember
Good for you

That's the one! Thank you. I had forten.

 

[ufology]

Interesting stuff in the opening article. Although I'm intrigued by the AAH ( Ancient Astronaut Hypothesis ), I think that if they came here with advanced technology, they wouldn't have wasted so much time and effort building giant stone edifices. I'm quite confident that they would have had more important things to do, and that if they interacted as extensively as mythology suggests, there would be undisputed archaeological evidence of advanced technology. As cool as these giant stone artifacts are, they are still just stone. Unless we find out that they were quarried on the moon or something, we can leave the AAH out of the picture.

 

[Akhenaten]

Freedom or French?

Cheop's Chips.

 

[pakeha]

Part of it is the blurry line between seasonal horticulture and early agriculture, you can have seasonal settlement specially in the fall and winter which will be based around seasonal harvest of a horticultural resource and the transition to early agriculture, and much depends upon the definition.

Usually agriculture requites some sort of tilling or specific field preparation, but horticulture is the other end of a continuum, you can horticulture and plant trees and shrubs and practice reseeding of crops.

So much of it will depend on the distinction between reseeding and actual field preparation.

And unless they are using specific stone tools to engage in field preparation teh evidence of the difference is going to be scant.

So you can have heavy settlement of a roaming horticultural society that engages in HG and horticulture that build permanent structures and even supports some storage technologies.

And then you have emergent agriculture, but it takes both the field preparation and storage technologies together to create an agrarian society.

Great post, putting some perspective in a nutshell on sticking labels on early communities.

O Pharaoh, yes, please with mayonaise with a dash of mustard.

 

[Kid Eager]

Cheop's Chips.

I think you mean Pharaoh Phries...

 

[edge]

Lets see if I can do this.
What happened is I forgot my dog has wolf in him and is very assertive and I forgot to look at his displays when he doesn't want to do things, he dislikes like taking his bath.
So he let me know, I also forgot about him being in a corner at the same time.
Once I start to bath him he likes it but not up until that point.
I felt the power in my left hand, which blocked my vision of his face, Face boy gnarled it.
It’s better today.
So Marduky I don’t know what you guys do at your computers over there, but here we have the female persuasion of the species to help with what you are suggesting.

 

[Akhenaten]

I think you mean Pharaoh Phries...

I did indeed. Those Cheops things are a cheap Greek rip-off of the real thing. Nasty.

 

[edge]

I can agree with what you say here and others like Vortigern99 have stated, but it's a desert now since 10,000 to 13,000 years-ago, so what happened?
Not only that but it was buried, I can’t see wasting the labor of thousands to do this it had to be nature that did this.
If you read into scripts that were left out like what is in Enoch and then leading up to Noah there is an explanation.
The Sand scripts from India is another example with details.
Now in India they imply that men were well equipped with knowledge since they insist that we were around for tens of thousands of years ago, possibly 100,000 years.

The one thing that the Hebrew insists is they are the only ones to survive and that it was a global event to explain it, when in reality God spared more than one race.
I have watched about 20 or more of the episodes of the proof they offer in that series.
The locals all over the world described these others as Gods descending down and describing to their best ability how they descended.


Between the two different accounts there seems to be two cleansing events, one about 70,000 years ago and one about 13,000 years ago and those who influenced us were banished but still have some influence but not they way it was in earlier history.
You want to leave out the explanations of the ancients and insert your own more rational ones, but to ignore it all is a mistake, because if they were writing down fiction I doubt they would have carved this in stone.

 

[Ladewig]

So, Edge. Is there any evidence we can present to you that will even slightly reduce your beliefs about these ancient sites and ancient events? What is your opinion of the evidence we have provided so far?

 

[ddt]

I think you mean Pharaoh Phries...

Do I see plans for Aberhaten to set up a shawarma shop in Gizeh?

 

[Akhenaten]

Do I see plans for Aberhaten to set up a shawarma shop in Gizeh?