The Oklahoma City Bombing Coverup

[Huntster]

Doubled GIANT post.

 

[Huntster]

.....You most certainly ARE making a claim there is a connection between OKC and 9/11. That you did not flat out state it is irrelevant. Your inference is that these are related....

I "claim" this:

1) There are media reports (including CNN) that Moussaoui used either Nick Berg's email password or his laptop computer somewhere in Oklahoma.....

2) There are media reports that Nick Berg was later beheaded in Bagdhad by terrorists associated with al-Zarqawi......

3) There are media reports that McVeigh was seen at a motel on I-40, near both Elohim City and Oklahoma City, with people of Mid-Eastern appearance.....

4) There are reports that Terry Nichols made several trips to the Phillipines, and that he was seen with Islamic terrorists who were associated with the WTC bombing.....

5) There are reports associating Moussaoui with the Oklahoma City area, where he attended some flight school training.......

6) There are reports that Carol Howe informed ATF SA Finley that people associated with Elohim City were talking of bombing federal buildings......

7) There are reports that SA Finley duly submitted a written report of Howe's reports to the regional ATF office in Dallas, and Finley's report was duly endorsed by appropriate OKC and Tulsa ATF officials...........

8) There is no record of Carol Howe in the McVeigh trial record, but there is in the Nichols trial record......

9) James Pate and Rick Sherrow reported most of the OKC events in accordance with what I have listed above in SOF magazine within two years after the bombing.............

10) The ATF and FBI at that time were heavily engaged in infiltrating right-wing, anti-government groups, and had both been heavily criticized after the Ruby Ridge and Waco events.............

11) It is my suspicion that the ATF was not aware of much information regarding FBI and CIA operations investigating Al Qaeda when the OKC attack took place, or afterwards............

...I asked for proof, you have provided none....

What's more, I informed you that if I did indeed have proof, I wouldn't be bothered presenting it to you.

I'd be dealing directly with federal prosecutors.

....Not any of your links actually provide any evidence that McVeigh and 9/11 have any connection whatsoever....

Correct.

Once again, they provide evidence that Moussaoui was connected to Berg, Berg was connected to al-Zarqawi, McVeigh was linked to Straussmeir, Straussmeir fled to Germany, money to pay for the Oklahoma flying school was paid for by Moussaoui with money wired from Germany, Nichols interacted with known Islamic terrorists in the Phillipines, and Moussaoui had well documented ties to the Oklahoma City area.

Originally Posted by Huntster :.......Please, read all the links I have provided (and was asked for).

I certainly have read them. I have seen NO evidence whatsoever other than eyewitness testimony that is specious at best that McVeigh had anything other than circumstantial contact with "middle eastern looking" men.

So, an OKC/9-11 connection can only be established between McVeigh, and not Moussaoui connected to Berg, Berg connected to al-Zarqawi, McVeigh linked to Straussmeir, etc.........?

...Given that he is an ardent white supremacist I highly doubt he would consort with anyone from the middle east on his mission to avenge WACO....

The white supremicists and Islamic terrorists share two major affinities:

1) They both hate Jews, and

2) They both hate the United States Government.

And McVeigh spent time in Iraq, just as Moussaoui has been spending time here.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
This is a forum, not a courtroom. If I could *prove* something here, I wouldn't be presenting it to you.

You should well know the burden of proof in regards to this forum and claims made. Do you need it explained again?

Yes, actually I do.

Are these "burdens" published on the forum as part of the "rules"?

Do you have an authority on such things here?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
You are trying to tie me on the merry-go-round again. I won't play that with you again.

I am asking you to support your claims with evidence.

I have done so repeatedly.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
It was.

She mentions Robert Millar too. Why isn't he suspect?

He should be.

That's part of the mystery.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
They did. You weren't listening.

Just like right now. (Links abound - Google can be your friend, if you'd just give it a try).

I most certainly was reading what you posted. They do not support your inference that 9/11 and OKC were related in any way.

You either have a reading problem, a comprehension problem, a problem differentiating proof from evidence, or a problem with me.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
You are unreasonable, sir. I'm tired of fowling with you.

I am very reasonable. I require evidence and you have not given any, but you have shifted the goalposts, attempted to reverse the burden of proof....

Highlights are to illustrate your difficulty differentiating evidence from proof.

...and you seem to be rather upset about all of this. Check your blood pressure....

It's high, and likely rising.

Funny, it happens regularly when interacting with you.

One of my physical impairments is high blood pressure. I'm medicated to regulate it.

Perhaps when I see one of your posts, I should pop a supplemental dose?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
There are connections between McVeigh/Nichols and Islamic terrorists, there are other connections between Berg and Islamic terrorists, all are connected to the Oklahoma City area, and the Islamic terrorists continued operations for 6 years after the OKC bombing (learning how to fly in the OKC area) virtually unimpeded until Sept. 11th, 2001.

Those are the connections.

Evidence? So far all you have is whispering conspiracy theories based on tidbits of inconsequential.

I have provided links.

You have provided nothing but the same, lame questions.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Just how many times must I answer your silly, repeated questions?

However many you'd like to....

I won't "like to" much longer.

...except you're still not answering. Where is the evidence showing a conclusive link between OKC and Al Queda?...

There you go again. You'll never know the difference between evidence and proof.

You know, I even think I provided you with definitions of the two words somewhere back in our short history.

...Now your contention is that OKC and 9/11 are connected....

Please do not proclaim my contention. See the numbered list above.

...Provide evidence this is the case. You've already admitted how testimony of interested parties alone is unreliable when you said this:

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Anybody involved in such activities knows that informants, while necessary evils, can be reliable today and full of $hit tomorrow...

How did you miss it?:

...informants, while necessary evils, can be reliable today and full of $hit tomorrow...

When the day after tomorrow comes, and the informant's report had merit, it was reliable, wasn't it?

You know; hindsight?

...So again, please provide evidence. I've explained why the laptop situation is implausible as anything other than a coincidence, and I've pointed out that even one of your own links (cnn) about the laptop says:

Government sources told CNN that the encounter involved an acquaintance of Zacarias Moussaoui -- the only person publicly charged in the United States in connection with the September 11, 2001, terror attacks...

Which is it? Moussoui himself or an acquiantance?...

I don't know. The reports also state email password and borrowed laptop.

The "implausible as anything other than a coincidence" concluded with the fact that this took place in the OKC area, and that Berg ended up loosing his head in Baghdad.

...So where is the evidence that OKC and 9/11 are connected in any way?...

Now, all around you.

No proof, but plenty of evidence.

 

[Belz...]

A common trait of coverups is the difficulty of verifying the truth.

A common trait of coverups is also the difficulty of verifying that there actually is one. Since there is little information supporting a conspiracy theory, how can one be convinced that there IS a conspiracy ? Or a coverup ? And if there is evidence, then verifying the truth shouldn't be that difficult.

Just my CDN0.02$

 

[Ducky]

I "claim" this:

1) There are media reports (including CNN) that Moussaoui used either Nick Berg's email password or his laptop computer somewhere in Oklahoma.....

Already addressed. Below you can't verify what those reports are confirming as to whether it was Moussoui or an acquaintance. Hardly evidence or proof. More like speculation.

2) There are media reports that Nick Berg was later beheaded in Bagdhad by terrorists associated with al-Zarqawi......

ok.

3) There are media reports that McVeigh was seen at a motel on I-40, near both Elohim City and Oklahoma City, with people of Mid-Eastern appearance.....

"appearance." Often my native american friend is asked if he is mexican. Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Once again eyewitness accounts, and not verified with evidence. Not a whole lot here but more speculation.

4) There are reports that Terry Nichols made several trips to the Phillipines, and that he was seen with Islamic terrorists who were associated with the WTC bombing.....

Nichols reportedly had a wife there. So what? Still more speculation. Other than someone saying they saw something, do you have any evidence to cooborate this story?

5) There are reports associating Moussaoui with the Oklahoma City area, where he attended some flight school training.......

So?

6) There are reports that Carol Howe informed ATF SA Finley that people associated with Elohim City were talking of bombing federal buildings......

Again, ground covered.

7) There are reports that SA Finley duly submitted a written report of Howe's reports to the regional ATF office in Dallas, and Finley's report was duly endorsed by appropriate OKC and Tulsa ATF officials...........

Once again, no cooberating evidence.

8) There is no record of Carol Howe in the McVeigh trial record, but there is in the Nichols trial record......

If she had nothing the prosecution or defense could use, this isn't surprising. they were two seperate trials.

9) James Pate and Rick Sherrow reported most of the OKC events in accordance with what I have listed above in SOF magazine within two years after the bombing.............

Your cites didn't show this. Provide the cite please.

10) The ATF and FBI at that time were heavily engaged in infiltrating right-wing, anti-government groups, and had both been heavily criticized after the Ruby Ridge and Waco events.............

Do you have a cite to back that up? While that statement is not implausible, I don't see you supporting your assertions with anything but your contention that you are correct.

11) It is my suspicion that the ATF was not aware of much information regarding FBI and CIA operations investigating Al Qaeda when the OKC attack took place, or afterwards............

Speculation. Even so, this doesn't provide evidence of anything. Does the ATF have a long history of communication with the CIA? It has been shown the FBI doesn't like to share information. So what?

What's more, I informed you that if I did indeed have proof, I wouldn't be bothered presenting it to you.

I'd be dealing directly with federal prosecutors.

That certainly says alot to the validity of your theory then. With all this underground scheming and planning and contacts and connections between OTC and 9/11 I am amazed there is no actual evidence other than some speculation and unsupported testimony.

Once again, they provide evidence that Moussaoui was connected to Berg, Berg was connected to al-Zarqawi, McVeigh was linked to Straussmeir, Straussmeir fled to Germany, money to pay for the Oklahoma flying school was paid for by Moussaoui with money wired from Germany, Nichols interacted with known Islamic terrorists in the Phillipines, and Moussaoui had well documented ties to the Oklahoma City area.

That's a great train ride, but you have no evidence that there is any actual links there. You have two events you are connecting with a german named Strausser (the validity of that connection is still in question) and that Islamic terrorists used german banks to funnel money. That's not conclusive, and you haven't shown any evidence of correlation there. Your conclusion is inductive, and logically unsound. Of course, if you were to provide evidence...

So, an OKC/9-11 connection can only be established between McVeigh, and not Moussaoui connected to Berg, Berg connected to al-Zarqawi, McVeigh linked to Straussmeir, etc.........?

No, but theres no evidence any way you slice your theory that there is a connection.

The white supremicists and Islamic terrorists share two major affinities:

1) They both hate Jews, and

2) They both hate the United States Government.

True, but they also hate each other just as much.

And McVeigh spent time in Iraq, just as Moussaoui has been spending time here.

Evidence? Have you actually compared the timeline to McVeigh being in Iraq and Moussoui being here? McVeigh was in Gulf War 1 and was back in the states before 1994. When did Moussoui get to the states?

Yes, actually I do.

Are these "burdens" published on the forum as part of the "rules"?

Do you have an authority on such things here?

CFLarsen has certainly lectured us all on the fact that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that it is the burden of the claimant to provide that evidence. It is a well known part of the culture of this forum.

I have done so repeatedly.

Speculation is not evidence.

You either have a reading problem, a comprehension problem, a problem differentiating proof from evidence, or a problem with me.

You seem to have a problem understanding that speculation is not evidence.

Highlights are to illustrate your difficulty differentiating evidence from proof.

Loosely used interchangably as an informal statement. If you would prefer to adhere strictly to formal logic that's fine with me. I'd be happy to list how many fallacies of induction and appeal to ignorance you've used.

It's high, and likely rising.

Funny, it happens regularly when interacting with you.

One of my physical impairments is high blood pressure. I'm medicated to regulate it.

Perhaps when I see one of your posts, I should pop a supplemental dose?

perhaps you should not get so worked up that you have no evidence.

I have provided links.

And I have provided critique on why they aren't "evidence"

You have provided nothing but the same, lame questions.

Maybe you should answer them then.

I won't "like to" much longer.

You can admit you have no evidence to support your theory at any time.

There you go again. You'll never know the difference between evidence and proof.

You know, I even think I provided you with definitions of the two words somewhere back in our short history.

See above. And no, that wasn't me you provided those definitions to. It seems you've been vitriolic with so many on this forum you are confusing discussions.

Please do not proclaim my contention. See the numbered list above.

Your contention is obvious. Your lack of evidence is also.

When the day after tomorrow comes, and the informant's report had merit, it was reliable, wasn't it?

You know; hindsight?

And when no supporting evidence shows itself after looking into that story, then the reliability of their statements are shown.

I don't know. The reports also state email password and borrowed laptop.

Already addressed.

The "implausible as anything other than a coincidence" concluded with the fact that this took place in the OKC area, and that Berg ended up loosing his head in Baghdad.

Why not? If it happened in Michigan, I am sure you would think it was related to McVeigh's ties to the Michigan Militia. Like I said before (and a point you sorely missed) I once was in the recording studio Patti LaBelle recorded in. That doesn't mean Patti and I know each other or have anything to do with each other.

Now, all around you.

No proof, but plenty of evidence.

No, but plenty of speculation.

 

[Huntster]

Well, Hell, Belz; what took you so long? I knew you'd show up eventually.

A common trait of coverups is also the difficulty of verifying that there actually is one....

Yup. That's why they call them "coverups".

... Since there is little information supporting a conspiracy theory, how can one be convinced that there IS a conspiracy?...

There's plenty of information. It's just that only little of it has been "confirmed" by sworn statements, physical evidence, etc.

Therefore, one shouldn'tbe convinced yet.

But I'll keep my eyes and ears open for more, anyway.

I've seen a$$-covering exercises and courtroom evidence suppression before. There may be something to this.

Maybe more trials, complete with "swearing in" might shed some light.

... Or a coverup? And if there is evidence, then verifying the truth shouldn't be that difficult....

Suggest that to Marsha Clark........

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I "claim" this:

1) There are media reports (including CNN) that Moussaoui used either Nick Berg's email password or his laptop computer somewhere in Oklahoma.....

Already addressed. Below you can't verify what those reports are confirming as to whether it was Moussoui or an acquaintance. Hardly evidence or proof. More like speculation....

Confirmation is proof, not evidence.

What I provided were reports.

If you don't like it, take it up with CNN and the others.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
2) There are media reports that Nick Berg was later beheaded in Bagdhad by terrorists associated with al-Zarqawi......

ok.

(Turnabout is fair play):

"You can't verify that those reports are confirming as to whether it was al-Zarqawi's or a rival's terror network that beheaded Berg. Hardly evidence or proof. More like speculation"

Originally Posted by Huntster :
3) There are media reports that McVeigh was seen at a motel on I-40, near both Elohim City and Oklahoma City, with people of Mid-Eastern appearance.....

"appearance." Often my native american friend is asked if he is mexican. Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Once again eyewitness accounts, and not verified with evidence. Not a whole lot here but more speculation.

Okay. That's weak.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
4) There are reports that Terry Nichols made several trips to the Phillipines, and that he was seen with Islamic terrorists who were associated with the WTC bombing.....

Nichols reportedly had a wife there. So what? Still more speculation. Other than someone saying they saw something, do you have any evidence to cooborate this story?

This:

...Kelly Patricia O'Meara, among others, of Insight Magazine, reported that Terry Nichols was witnessed attending a meeting on that island and that also present in that meeting were Ramzi Yosef, Abdul Hakim Murad and Wali Khan Amin Shah. Ramzi Yosef was the mastermind behind the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, , while Murad and Shah, also involved in the 1993 bombing, were convicted in 1996, for conspiring to blow up 12 airline jets. It was reported that the subject of the meeting centered around bombing activities and building bombs...

Originally Posted by Huntster :

5) There are reports associating Moussaoui with the Oklahoma City area, where he attended some flight school training.......

So?

He was there.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
6) There are reports that Carol Howe informed ATF SA Finley that people associated with Elohim City were talking of bombing federal buildings......

Again, ground covered.

By me, repeatedly, yes.

You?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
7) There are reports that SA Finley duly submitted a written report of Howe's reports to the regional ATF office in Dallas, and Finley's report was duly endorsed by appropriate OKC and Tulsa ATF officials...........

Once again, no cooberating evidence.

Here.

...In the year from mid 1994 to April, 1995, Carol Howe made at least 70 reports to the ATF along with 38 audio cassettes and 2 video tapes. That Elohim City and all those who resided and visited was under the closest scrutiny is undeniable.

Howe was designated as ATF's Confidential Informant #53270-183, or informally as "CI-183." Some of her neo-Nazi comrades referred to her as "Freya" and "Lady MacBeth." In her preliminary report to the ATF, submitted through Agent Anglea Finley, the following information was provided by Howe, as reported in "The New American:"

"W.A.R. is a white supremacist organization that is described briefly as being radical, paramilitary, neo-Nazi, anti-government and violent. W.A.R. has national and international affiliates to include the KKK and a racist following in Germany. W.A.R. affiliates with John Metzger, who is a widely known white supremacist with the KKK. W.A.R. has approximately 20-25 active, 50 non-active, and 200 underground members locally. When a group of "legals" reaches a membership of 5 to 15 people, it will separate to form another group. This is done to protect the members from any government action such as search warrants and infiltration.

Agent Finley's report also notes that "W.A.R. has several training sites in Oklahoma. The primary training location is called Elohim City which is in a rural area near the border of Oklahoma and Arkansas." Finley concludes this initial report by recounting that CI-183 provided her with a videotape of Mahon making statements "that he was a member of the Klan; that violence is the only answer; that violence does work; and that he supports violence against politicians."

Of particular significance is the fact that this report was directed to Special Agent In Charge of the Dallas Field Division, Lester D. Martz. It was signed by Agent Finley, David E. Roberts, the Resident Agent in Charge of the Tulsa Field Office and by Tommy Wittman for SAC Lester Martz in Dallas. The report was specifically designated "sensitive" and "significant" rather than routine, and that the investigation was specified as one concerning "terrorist/extremist" individuals and groups....

Originally Posted by Huntster :
8) There is no record of Carol Howe in the McVeigh trial record, but there is in the Nichols trial record......

If she had nothing the prosecution or defense could use, this isn't surprising. they were two seperate trials.

For the same crime, which clearly involved others.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
9) James Pate and Rick Sherrow reported most of the OKC events in accordance with what I have listed above in SOF magazine within two years after the bombing.............

Your cites didn't show this. Provide the cite please.

Yes, I provided both the reference and a linK (#243):

...Again, I first learned of "Andy" Strassmeir from James Pate's and Rick Sherrow's reporting in Soldier of Fortune magazine. Their work can only be verified by buying their past articles from SOF....

Originally Posted by Huntster :
10) The ATF and FBI at that time were heavily engaged in infiltrating right-wing, anti-government groups, and had both been heavily criticized after the Ruby Ridge and Waco events.............

Do you have a cite to back that up? While that statement is not implausible, I don't see you supporting your assertions with anything but your contention that you are correct.

Oh, PLEASE!

Surely you can't be that far in the dark!

Does anybody else see the unreasonableness of this man?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
11) It is my suspicion that the ATF was not aware of much information regarding FBI and CIA operations investigating Al Qaeda when the OKC attack took place, or afterwards............


Speculation....

Did the word "suspicion" give you a clue?

...Even so, this doesn't provide evidence of anything...

Are you practicing to become Matlock or something?

...Does the ATF have a long history of communication with the CIA?...

No. That's the point. If there was better inter-agency communication, this $hit would be minimized.

Wasn't that the complaint of those crying about the "intelligence failures" regarding "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq?

...It has been shown the FBI doesn't like to share information. So what?...

It leads to failure.

Failure tempts coverup.

I'm not much of an artist, but I'm getting desperate. I really, really need to draw you a picture, don't I?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
What's more, I informed you that if I did indeed have proof, I wouldn't be bothered presenting it to you.

I'd be dealing directly with federal prosecutors.

That certainly says alot to the validity of your theory then.

Yes, it does.

It says that "if there was proof, we could even convict the ham sandwich with the Fowl in the jury".

But there's no "proof". There's evidence.

Or, there's proof that the intelligence community doesn't want to compromise.

With all this underground scheming and planning and contacts and connections between OTC and 9/11 I am amazed there is no actual evidence other than some speculation and unsupported testimony....

With an attitude like yours, I'm not surprised that you're amazed.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Once again, they provide evidence that Moussaoui was connected to Berg, Berg was connected to al-Zarqawi, McVeigh was linked to Straussmeir, Straussmeir fled to Germany, money to pay for the Oklahoma flying school was paid for by Moussaoui with money wired from Germany, Nichols interacted with known Islamic terrorists in the Phillipines, and Moussaoui had well documented ties to the Oklahoma City area.

That's a great train ride, but you have no evidence that there is any actual links there....

Time for me to question YOU.

After reading the links I have provided, do you deny that Moussaoui used either Nick Berg's laptop computer or his email password? (No links, evidence, or proof requested; just your denial or fear of denial).

...You have two events you are connecting with a german named Strausser (the validity of that connection is still in question) and that Islamic terrorists used german banks to funnel money. That's not conclusive....

You know what's "conclusive"? The fact that you're not reading the links I provide.

You just criticized my links to Andreas Straussmeir as a "german named Strausser".

I call foul.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
So, an OKC/9-11 connection can only be established between McVeigh, and not Moussaoui connected to Berg, Berg connected to al-Zarqawi, McVeigh linked to Straussmeir, etc.........?

No, but theres no evidence any way you slice your theory that there is a connection.

There's no evidence if you refuse to read it.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
The white supremicists and Islamic terrorists share two major affinities:

1) They both hate Jews, and

2) They both hate the United States Government.

True, but they also hate each other just as much.

Evidence, Oh Great Skeptic?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
And McVeigh spent time in Iraq, just as Moussaoui has been spending time here.

Evidence?...

Do you deny that McVeigh was in Iraq during the 1st Gulf War?

...Have you actually compared the timeline to McVeigh being in Iraq and Moussoui being here?...

No.

So?

...McVeigh was in Gulf War 1 and was back in the states before 1994. When did Moussoui get to the states?...

That's not relevant.

What's relevant is that Moussouai was Al Qaeda, they hate the U.S. Government, so did McVeigh, both were deeply involved in U.S. policy in Iraq, both have ties to Oklahoma, and both have ties to terrorist activities in the United States.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Yes, actually I do.

Are these "burdens" published on the forum as part of the "rules"?

Do you have an authority on such things here?

CFLarsen has certainly lectured us all on the fact that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that it is the burden of the claimant to provide that evidence....

Who is CFLarsen, and does he/she have anything to do with the forum regulations?

...It is a well known part of the culture of this forum....

As you may be able to tell, I don't have much knowledge or conformance with the "culture" of this forum.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I have done so repeatedly.

Speculation is not evidence.

Media reports are, even if you don't like it.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
You either have a reading problem, a comprehension problem, a problem differentiating proof from evidence, or a problem with me.

You seem to have a problem understanding that speculation is not evidence.

And you seem to have a problem understanding that evidence is not proof.

Further, I'm wondering if you can differentiate between evidence and speculation.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
It's high, and likely rising.

Funny, it happens regularly when interacting with you.

One of my physical impairments is high blood pressure. I'm medicated to regulate it.

Perhaps when I see one of your posts, I should pop a supplemental dose?

perhaps you should not get so worked up that you have no evidence.

A lack of "evidence" isn't my problem. Actually, I shouldn't get worked up when interacting with you.

I guess you just bring out the high pressure in me.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I have provided links.

And I have provided critique on why they aren't "evidence"

And that critique sucks.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
You have provided nothing but the same, lame questions.

Maybe you should answer them then.

I have. Repeatedly.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I won't "like to" much longer.

You can admit you have no evidence to support your theory at any time.

I cannot.

Because I have no "theory", but there is plenty of evidence to support the possibility that McVeigh and Nichols didn't act alone in the OKC attack, and that there are links to international terrorists.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
There you go again. You'll never know the difference between evidence and proof.

You know, I even think I provided you with definitions of the two words somewhere back in our short history.


See above. And no, that wasn't me you provided those definitions to.

Well, then, I'm sorry I left you out:

Evidence:

A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
Law. The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.

Proof:

The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
A statement or argument used in such a validation.

Convincing or persuasive demonstration: was asked for proof of his identity; an employment history that was proof of her dependability.
The state of being convinced or persuaded by consideration of evidence.
Determination of the quality of something by testing; trial: put one's beliefs to the proof.
Law. The result or effect of evidence; the establishment or denial of a fact by evidence.
The alcoholic strength of a liquor, expressed by a number that is twice the percentage by volume of alcohol present.
Printing.
A trial sheet of printed material that is made to be checked and corrected. Also called proof sheet.
A trial impression of a plate, stone, or block taken at any of various stages in engraving.

A trial photographic print.
Any of a limited number of newly minted coins or medals struck as specimens and for collectors from a new die on a polished planchet.
Archaic. Proven impenetrability: “I was clothed in Armor of proof” (John Bunyan).

...It seems you've been vitriolic with so many on this forum you are confusing discussions....

I guess my avatar, my open faith in God and Christ, and my willingness to accept and look into possibilities may have something to do with my responses to many on this forum. Vitriolic? You bet. I've returned hostility when hostility was presented.

I grant that you haven't been hostile.

But you're damned frustrating............

Originally Posted by Huntster :
The "implausible as anything other than a coincidence" concluded with the fact that this took place in the OKC area, and that Berg ended up loosing his head in Baghdad.


Why not? If it happened in Michigan, I am sure you would think it was related to McVeigh's ties to the Michigan Militia....

Who says that the Michigan Militia won't be tied into this at some time?

The FBI and ATF were infiltrating them, as well.

There's no evidence of that now that I know of, but I'm willing to see what you've got.

Huntster-Do not use creative spelling to get around the filter.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

 

[Belz...]

Well, Hell, Belz; what took you so long? I knew you'd show up eventually.

Don't worry. As long as religion doesn't come up we shouldn't clash so much

Yup. That's why they call them "coverups".

Well, what I meant is that, since there's little of no evidence to support their existence (in some cases, that is), it's difficult to confidently say "there's a coverup" without resorting to gut feelings or conjecture.

 

[Bronze Dog]

Do you have any idea how often these people claim they'll blow up building X, Y or Z? They get these tips constantly. The trouble is sorting out the credible ones.

I'm reminded of an episode of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Along Complex: Second Gig. Revolved around this pilot for some public official. He kept fantasizing about killing that official and dying in the process. Apparently Section 9 was investigating him and concluded that he was too much of a coward to go through with his fantasies or something.

 

[Bronze Dog]

Well, what I meant is that, since there's little of no evidence to support their existence (in some cases, that is), it's difficult to confidently say "there's a coverup" without resorting to gut feelings or conjecture.

It's like that ninja in Huntster's house.

 

[Huntster]

Don't worry. As long as religion doesn't come up we shouldn't clash so much ......

Oh, okay.

So, how long before you think somebody on this thread will bring up the extreme right-winger's religion thing?

Oh! I just did it!

Okay. How long before you think somebody will try to use that against me?

 

[Huntster]

It's like that ninja in Huntster's house.

God does the ninja thing everywhere I go, not just in my house.

He doesn't need to do it here. I've got Mrs. Huntster here at the house.

 

[Belz...]

Okay. How long before you think somebody will try to use that against me?

Well, _I_'m not going to. I'd rather discuss the issue for what it is. Now, whether we agree on other subjects or whether we think that the other's opinion on that other subject means anything in THIS thread, is irrelevant. Agreed ?

 

[Trifikas]

So many long posts, relevance gets lost quickly, but...


From Huntsman:
3) There are media reports that McVeigh was seen at a motel on I-40, near both Elohim City and Oklahoma City, with people of Mid-Eastern appearance..

The article you provided the link for:

http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/the-terrorist-motel/3728/

States very clearly that McVeigh was meeting with "a group of Iraqis who worked in Oklahoma City."

Exact quote: "According to the motel owner and other witnesses and investigators interviewed by the Weekly, McVeigh and several of these Iraqis were motel guests in the months preceding the 1995 bombing."

Is there a place to check the nationalities of the 9-11 hijackers? If I recall, (And I'd do my research if I weren't posting from work), There weren't a lot of Iraqi's as part of the plot.
_______________________________

Also, the obvious next step would be to look into Berg's background. From what I've understood, there really wasn't a reason to think that the meeting was other than cooincidence - Was there anything Special About Berg that a terrorist would seek him out specificly, or was he just the guy he was sitting next to at the time? If he was a college student, (Wich I would hazzard a guess he was, if the speculation that they were trying to use his credentials to hack U of O. ) he probably didn't have enough resources to be worth being sought out by a terrorist.
_______________________________

If you argue that Carol Howe's Information is credible, and the FBI knew about the OKC bombs, Then you can't argue that it WASN'T McVeigh and the White supremisists, since that was the group she infiltrated to get the information. As this thread is getting bigger, I can't recall if thats actually happened, but I want it in there for the record. ;-)

Okay. carry on.

Trif

 

[Dr Adequate]

I guess my avatar, my open faith in God and Christ, and my willingness to accept and look into possibilities may have something to do with my responses to many on this forum.

You're blaming your behavior on Christianity?

But there are so many Christians who aren't complete jerks. How do you explain that?

 

[Bronze Dog]

I don't think anything Huntster says in any way involves a willingness to look into possibilities.

I also think he missed the point behind my ninja link. The analogy applies to more than just ramenic deities.

 

[kookbreaker]

Is there a place to check the nationalities of the 9-11 hijackers? If I recall, (And I'd do my research if I weren't posting from work), There weren't a lot of Iraqi's as part of the plot.

15 of the 19 were Saudi nationals. I'm not sure where the rest were from but I am very certain that they were not from Iraq.

 

[Dr Adequate]

[I guess my avatar, my open faith in God and Christ ... may have something to do with my responses to many on this forum. Vitriolic? You bet. I've returned hostility when hostility was presented.

Could I just check?

When you say "Christ", you're talking about Jesus Christ, yes?

Not just someone with the same surname, but the guy who said:

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment ... anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

Perhaps you should choose another religion more in line with your rather specialized spiritual needs.

 

[Ducky]

Confirmation is proof, not evidence.

What I provided were reports.

If you don't like it, take it up with CNN and the others.

Sounds like you should call some prosecutors if you have such proof.

(Turnabout is fair play):

"You can't verify that those reports are confirming as to whether it was al-Zarqawi's or a rival's terror network that beheaded Berg. Hardly evidence or proof. More like speculation"

Sorry, I'm not making that claim.

Okay. That's weak.

Eyewitness testimony is weak. Where's your evidence?

This:

Still not evidence. More eyewitness speculation.

He was there.

Still not a link to McVeigh.

By me, repeatedly, yes.

You?

Again, not evidnec of anything between OKC and 9/11.

Here.

Still waiting for the link between 9/11 and OKC. that doesn't provide it.

For the same crime, which clearly involved others.

Then clearly you have evidence other than speculation and conspiracy theories. Provide it.

Yes, I provided both the reference and a linK (#243):

Which doesn't show a link between 9/11 and OKC. Again, you have nothing but induction to attempt to link a german that is reported to have some connection to the fact that german banks were used to funnel money. That's not a connection, that's speculation.

Oh, PLEASE!

Surely you can't be that far in the dark!

Does anybody else see the unreasonableness of this man?

You seem to not be willing to back up your statements with cites. Provide one and stop complaining when asked, or admit you have no evidence.

Did the word "suspicion" give you a clue?

Which isn't evidnece.

Are you practicing to become Matlock or something?

Whatever.

No. That's the point. If there was better inter-agency communication, this $hit would be minimized.

Wasn't that the complaint of those crying about the "intelligence failures" regarding "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq?

non-sequiter. Still not evidence 9/11 and OKC are connected.

It leads to failure.

Failure tempts coverup.

I'm not much of an artist, but I'm getting desperate. I really, really need to draw you a picture, don't I?

Providing evidence would be a nice start. So far you have nothing but speculation.

Yes, it does.

It says that "if there was proof, we could even convict the ham sandwich with the Fowl in the jury".

But there's no "proof". There's evidence.

I thought you said at the beginning of your post that confirmation is proof? You're waffling here. Tell you what, simply provide anything other than speculation as evidence.

With an attitude like yours, I'm not surprised that you're amazed.

Still not evidence.

Time for me to question YOU.

After reading the links I have provided, do you deny that Moussaoui used either Nick Berg's laptop computer or his email password? (No links, evidence, or proof requested; just your denial or fear of denial).

Considering you admitted you don't know that happened and seeing discreprncies in the CNN report vs. the others I have no reason to think it did until I see some actual evidence. Otherwise it is nothing but conflicting speculation.

You know what's "conclusive"? The fact that you're not reading the links I provide.

You just criticized my links to Andreas Straussmeir as a "german named Strausser".

No, I criticized your inductive reasoning without evidence that there is a german connection between Al Quaeda and OKC. You have not shown evidence to back it up. Merely speculation.

Phuck you, fowl. I call foul.

Careful of your blood pressure.

There's no evidence if you refuse to read it.

I've read everything you posted. You have not provided any evidence other than unreliable eyewitness testimony and speculation. This is not conclusive evidnece of anything.

Evidence, Oh Great Skeptic?

Here, I'll do your work for you, since you'd prefer to throw insults and whine that I want evidnece. If you wanted to show that White Supremacists and Muslim trerrorists could have a connection you could have posted this.

However instead of doing a simple google you resorted to more vitriol. Now, my links explaining why that is an exception and why white supremacists hate arabs just as much as jews is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacists

Evidence that fundamentalist muslims hate anyone not a muslim is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Muslim

Take a read.

Do you deny that McVeigh was in Iraq during the 1st Gulf War?

I didn't say that, and you're throwing up a straw man. I asked when Moussoui came to the US. You claimed they had overlapping timelines and I asked for evidence.

No.

So?

Then your statement of "And McVeigh spent time in Iraq, just as Moussaoui has been spending time here." is wholly unsuppoerted.

That's not relevant.

What's relevant is that Moussouai was Al Qaeda, they hate the U.S. Government, so did McVeigh, both were deeply involved in U.S. policy in Iraq, both have ties to Oklahoma, and both have ties to terrorist activities in the United States.

You made the statement inferring it was relevant above. Now you're just shifting your story.

Who is CFLarsen, and does he/she have anything to do with the forum regulations?

He currently holds the #1 spot for number of posts. Most of which are probably only the word "Evidence?" No he does not have anything to do with forum regulations. However that humor is lost on you I can see.

As you may be able to tell, I don't have much knowledge or conformance with the "culture" of this forum.

You've certainly been here long enough to learn.

Media reports are, even if you don't like it.

No, media reports are media reports.

And you seem to have a problem understanding that evidence is not proof.

Further, I'm wondering if you can differentiate between evidence and speculation.

Indeed. You've made alot of speculation. You've presented almost no evidence other than unreliable witness testimony and circumstantial speculation.

A lack of "evidence" isn't my problem. Actually, I shouldn't get worked up when interacting with you.

I guess you just bring out the high pressure in me.

You've admitted it is, and in the same post you say that confirmation is proof.

And that critique sucks.

That's your refutation of my critique? Hardly compelling discourse.

I have. Repeatedly.

When asked for evidence you have thrown around insults and generally thrown a tantrum. Perhaps providing evidence is the answer.

I cannot.

Because I have no "theory", but there is plenty of evidence to support the possibility that McVeigh and Nichols didn't act alone in the OKC attack, and that there are links to international terrorists.

You're backpedalling here. You've stated that international terrorist groups work together. You've yet to show any conclusive evidence of this.

Well, then, I'm sorry I left you out:

Evidence:



Proof:

All that trouble to find that link and you couldn't find the link I provided for your argument above?

I guess my avatar, my open faith in God and Christ, and my willingness to accept and look into possibilities may have something to do with my responses to many on this forum. Vitriolic? You bet. I've returned hostility when hostility was presented.

I grant that you haven't been hostile.

But you're damned frustrating............

And you've admitted to being a violent person. You're still not providing anything conclusive to support your thoery.

Who says that the Michigan Militia won't be tied into this at some time?

The FBI and ATF were infiltrating them, as well.

You're just willing to throw everyone into this conspiracy aren't you? There is no evidence of the Michigan Militia doing anything but running around feilds in Michigan pretending to be soldiers since OKC.

There's no evidence of that now that I know of, but I'm willing to see what you've got.

I didn't present a theory requiring evidence. But thanks, that admission of lack of evidence is exactly my point. You've got none. Please read Trifikas' post regarding logical inconsistencies with your theory. They bring up very good points.

 

[Belz...]

Could I just check?

When you say "Christ", you're talking about Jesus Christ, yes?

Not just someone with the same surname, but the guy who said:



Perhaps you should choose another religion more in line with your rather specialized spiritual needs.

Could we please keep this on topic, people ?

 

[Z]

Oh, okay.

So, how long before you think somebody on this thread will bring up the extreme right-winger's religion thing?

Oh! I just did it!

Okay. How long before you think somebody will try to use that against me?

hmmm...mmmph? Oh, hey, that's my cue, right?

Ah, heck with it. Too tired.

Besides... I personally don't think it's unlikely that McVeigh and Nichols had some vague connection with Islamic terrorists, nor that it's unlikely that OKC and 9/11 were related. I just think neither had jack squat to do with 'insider work' by our own evil gub'ment (I mean, aside from Bush Sr. pissing off the terrorists in both camps during his reign).

Oh, here - half-hearted try:

"See? This is the religious freakazoid nutjob who thinks that Christ's murder was an inside job, too..."

blah.

Faggedaboudit...