The Oklahoma City Bombing Coverup

[steve s]

I'm becoming convinced that these people think there's a generic thing called a "building" and that's that. No differences among concrete and steel and glass, no difference between beam and post and column/spandril, no understanding of trusses or connection methods or other load tranfer technologies, nothing. Just "building."

What's sorta funny is that there's a building in NYC (forgot the name of it, but someone here will probably know it) that has no support columns at it's corners. They're all located at the midway point of the outer walls. The corners of the building appear to float a couple of stories up.

After the building was completed, the architect realized that he had made a serious miscalculation and that the building could be blown over by a strong wind hitting the building diagonally. Construction crews quietly went from floor to floor to reinforce the building.

This would have been the perfect building for the conspiracy nuts; flawed right from the drawing board. No need for pre-planted explosive charges. Hopefully they'll never get to sink their teeth into this one.

ETA: Sweet illustration. It'll go unacknowledged by the CTers but maybe you can use it with some grade-schoolers someday.

Thanks. I whipped it up in Bryce.

Steve S.

 

[steve s]

The BATF got warnings to stay out of work. And I didn't say that made them "in" on it.

You're always telling us to give the names of people. Now it's your turn. Name the people who gave out the warnings.

Did they do it by e-mail? Then you should have no trouble tracking down that e-mail. Nothing on the net is ever really deleted.

Did they do it by phone? Then there should be phone records.

Let's see some evidence.

Steve S.

 

[CptColumbo]

Did you have a link on that information?

I provided a link that can put you in contact with the BATF themselves, and you can ask them.

 

[chipmunk stew]

What's sorta funny is that there's a building in NYC (forgot the name of it, but someone here will probably know it) that has no support columns at it's corners. They're all located at the midway point of the outer walls. The corners of the building appear to float a couple of stories up.

After the building was completed, the architect realized that he had made a serious miscalculation and that the building could be blown over by a strong wind hitting the building diagonally. Construction crews quietly went from floor to floor to reinforce the building.

This would have been the perfect building for the conspiracy nuts; flawed right from the drawing board. No need for pre-planted explosive charges. Hopefully they'll never get to sink their teeth into this one.

I hope someone comes up with the name so I can avoid it next time I'm in NYC.

 

[Bronze Dog]

I hope someone comes up with the name so I can avoid it next time I'm in NYC.

Think I've seen pictures of it. Kind of like that one artist who built an installation with a grand piano hanging from the ceiling upside-down. The latter knowingly made people uncomfortable. The former is probably an even bigger sadist.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by conspiracybeliever :
The BATF got warnings to stay out of work. And I didn't say that made them "in" on it.

You're always telling us to give the names of people. Now it's your turn. Name the people who gave out the warnings.....

Carol Howe.

 

[DavidJames]

Carol Howe.

Who is she? What evidece do you that she gave out the warning?

 

[WildCat]

Carol Howe.

She's a nut:

Howe was a paid informant for the ATF for more than two years who reportedly said she warned federal authorities four months before the Oklahoma City explosion that 15 U.S. cities would be bombed.
Government sources have questioned her credibility, and Howe is under indictment in a separate case in Tulsa, Oklahoma, for alleged bomb threats and possession of a destructive device.

You've GOT to be kidding...

 

[chipmunk stew]

Carol Howe.

Carol Howe was an informant for ATF who had infiltrated a militant white supremacist group. She told ATF of the attitudes and general plans of the group (which included actions against the gov't, including bombings) but you'll have to provide some evidence if you're going to make the claim that she warned them specifically of the attack on the Murrah building on that day.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Gravy :
BATF agents didn't receive warnings to stay out of the building. Several of them were seriously injured in their office at the rear of the building.

Did you have a link on that information?

I provided a link that can put you in contact with the BATF themselves, and you can ask them.

...I just called the field office in OKC, and asked a couple of questions about the bombing (to clear up some questions I had). The BATF office was in the building (I didn't know for sure). No BATF agents were killed, but they were in the building or nearby at the time. Two were in the office, and the rest were getting coffee, across the street (it was 9:03 am). One secretary was trapped under debris for some time.

The agent I spoke to admits he wasn't with the agency at the time, but has been asked enough questions about it over the years that he is familiar with the BATF's roll in that incident....

Any mention of Special Agent Angela Finley (now Angela Finley-Graham)?

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Carol Howe.

She's a nut:

Howe was a paid informant for the ATF for more than two years who reportedly said she warned federal authorities four months before the Oklahoma City explosion that 15 U.S. cities would be bombed.
Government sources have questioned her credibility, and Howe is under indictment in a separate case in Tulsa, Oklahoma, for alleged bomb threats and possession of a destructive device.

You've GOT to be kidding......

That's my whole point.

Anybody involved in such activities knows that informants, while necessary evils, can be reliable today and full of $hit tomorrow.

So, your informant tells you these "people" are planning to blow up "federal buildings", including the Murrah Bldg. As the good skeptic you are, you ignore her.

BOOM!

Now, Special Agent Big Shot, what do you do?

 

[DavidJames]

Any mention of Special Agent Angela Finley (now Angela Finley-Graham)?

Are you able to type paragraphs? It would help if you laid out what you are trying to say or help with answers you are trying to obtain.

 

[WildCat]

That's my whole point.

Anybody involved in such activities knows that informants, while necessary evils, can be reliable today and full of $hit tomorrow.

So, your informant tells you these "people" are planning to blow up "federal buildings", including the Murrah Bldg. As the good skeptic you are, you ignore her.

BOOM!

Now, Special Agent Big Shot, what do you do?

Huntster, when you rectuit informants you must deal w/ despicable slime, as these are the people who are in the groups you are trying to get info about. In this case, it was white supremacists. Many paid informants turn out wrong, as in this case. Not the person you want to hang your whole theory on, is it?

 

[Johnny Pixels]

Can we get some kind of goverment grant to round up conspiracy theorists and teach them the basic science and critical thinking skills they lack? It'd be a bit like an interactive Mythbusters I guess. Take them out on a range and blow some stuff up to show them how explosives work. Show them how buildings are put together. Give them a crash course on image compression. And do it all at Area 51 to show them there are no UFOs there.

I guess they'd just wake up in the morning and convince themselves they'd been kidnapped and brainwashed by the government though.

 

[CptColumbo]

Any mention of Special Agent Angela Finley (now Angela Finley-Graham)?

No, because I hadn't read anything to do with her at the time.

One article by Bob Hall I read about Carol Howe at www.totse.com/EN/conspiracy/howeatf.html
Mentions she was Howe's handler, however doesn't seem to support the belief that Howe knew about the bombing to the extent that she could have warned the right office ahead of time. According to this article 15 cities were being targeted by the group she had infiltrated (this is according to her), and would be using pipe bombs.

It further said

The problem with the stories Mr. Cash produced is that some of the basic facts are in dispute. But his account has spread so far and wide that no matter what Ms. Howe tells the news media now, she will likely be dogged with the same bottom line, "you didn't actually give the ATF or anyone else, specific threat information before the Oklahoma City bombing."

and later

The point the news media has missed is this. It's not that Carol Howe ever gave the feds a clear, direct and specific threat report involving a bombing in Oklahoma City. She gave them everything they needed to start rounding up the people who were behind it.

The article seemed to have been written by someone who had first-hand knowledge of her trial (she was acquitted).

Most employers (government or otherwise) will not disclose personal information about employees, so I doubt if you asked about her specifically if they would give you any information.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
That's my whole point.

Anybody involved in such activities knows that informants, while necessary evils, can be reliable today and full of $hit tomorrow.

So, your informant tells you these "people" are planning to blow up "federal buildings", including the Murrah Bldg. As the good skeptic you are, you ignore her.

BOOM!

Now, Special Agent Big Shot, what do you do?

Huntster, when you rectuit informants you must deal w/ despicable slime, as these are the people who are in the groups you are trying to get info about. In this case, it was white supremacists. Many paid informants turn out wrong, as in this case.

I'm sorry, but if Carol Howe informed SA Finley of the group's intention to bomb federal buildings, she wasn't wrong, was she?

...Not the person you want to hang your whole theory on, is it?...

Yet, again, that is my point.

Somebody within the field office decided not to.

BOOM!

Now, what do you do?

 

[Huntster]

Very good investigative work, Captain.

....Mentions she was Howe's handler, however doesn't seem to support the belief that Howe knew about the bombing to the extent that she could have warned the right office ahead of time. According to this article 15 cities were being targeted by the group she had infiltrated (this is according to her), and would be using pipe bombs...

That was pretty much my understanding of the situation.

...It further said

The problem with the stories Mr. Cash produced is that some of the basic facts are in dispute. But his account has spread so far and wide that no matter what Ms. Howe tells the news media now, she will likely be dogged with the same bottom line, "you didn't actually give the ATF or anyone else, specific threat information before the Oklahoma City bombing."

Again, I agree (and I note that's probably what would be written here on this thread by many).

...and later


The point the news media has missed is this. It's not that Carol Howe ever gave the feds a clear, direct and specific threat report involving a bombing in Oklahoma City. She gave them everything they needed to start rounding up the people who were behind it.

Take this fact a bit further:

Some who were involved were never arrested, never tried, and got away with mass murder.

The article seemed to have been written by someone who had first-hand knowledge of her trial (she was aquitted).

Again, that was my understanding of the situation.

 

[Ducky]

Which terrorist was that purchased for, was the plane ticket for one of the 9/11 flights? Were there any indications this terminal was anything but one fo the public terminals available in the library or computer lab? Is there independant verifacation of this other than that news report?

It would seem if Moussouoi lived in Oaklahoma and needed a public computer to do work difficult to trace the university is a good choice. That someone used it isn't evidence of anyone at the university being complicit in the conspiracy. What account login was used on that machine when it was purchased? Does the University keep those records in log files on teh server?

This seems like a game of telephone casting suspicion but no real evidence of anythiing other than a computer terminal being used (reportedly) to purchase a plane ticket.

Still waiting for a response to this Huntster.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I'm sorry, but if Carol Howe informed SA Finley of the group's intention to bomb federal buildings, she wasn't wrong, was she?



Yet, again, that is my point.

Somebody within the field office decided not to.

BOOM!

Now, what do you do?

Do you have any idea how often these people claim they'll blow up building X, Y or Z? They get these tips constantly. The trouble is sorting out the credible ones.

 

[Manny]

What's sorta funny is that there's a building in NYC (forgot the name of it, but someone here will probably know it) that has no support columns at it's corners. They're all located at the midway point of the outer walls. The corners of the building appear to float a couple of stories up.

After the building was completed, the architect realized that he had made a serious miscalculation and that the building could be blown over by a strong wind hitting the building diagonally. Construction crews quietly went from floor to floor to reinforce the building.

I hope someone comes up with the name so I can avoid it next time I'm in NYC.

Citycorp Center. Yeah, that's about number four on the "who's Osama gonna try to hit next" hit parade here in the city, building-wise.