The Oklahoma City Bombing Coverup

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...
Sgt. Lola Renee Bolden, 40
Army recruiting officer
...
Cynthia Lynn Campbell Brown, 26
Special agent for the U.S. Secret Service
...
Rona Linn Chafey, 36
Drug Enforcement Agency worker
...
Harley Richard Cottingham, 46
Special agent for the Department of Defense
...
Peter Leslie DeMaster, 44
Special agent for the Defense Department
...
Randolph Guzman, 28
Executive officer of the Marine Corps recruiting center
...
Peggy Louise Jenkins Holland, 37
Computer specialist for the U.S. Army recruiting center
...
Paul Douglas Ice, 42
U.S. Customs Service special agent
...
Norma Jean Johnson, 62
Secretary at the Department of Defense
...
Donald R Leonard, 50
Special agent for the Secret Service
...
Lakesha Levy, 21
Who was in the U.S. Navy, died while picking up her Social Security card
...
Mickey Bryant Maroney, 50
Secret Service special agent
...
Kenneth Glenn McCullough, 36
Special agent for the Drug Enforcement Agency
...
Linda Gail Griffin McKinney, 47
Office manager at the Secret Service office
...
Claude Arthur Medearis, 41
Senior special agent for the U.S. Customs office
...
Larry Laverne Turner, 42
Special agent for the Department of Defense
...
Robert Glen Westberry, 57
Special agent at the Department of Defense

Alan Gerald Whicher, 40
Secret Service special agent
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John Albert Youngblood, 52
Special agent with the Department of Transportation
...

CB,
Why warn the BATF agents and not those I highlighted above?

 

[conspiracybeliever]

Ah, so you want to shift the argument. Ok. I don't know why the BATF were the only govt. agency to get warnings to stay away from the building that morning. No idea.

Ex-congressman's aide has video of explosion?
Police raid home for evidence Nichols' attorneys say investigators never saw

Posted: February 1, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

This story appears in today's edition of the McCurtain Daily Gazette.
By J.D. Cash
© 2004 McCurtain Daily Gazette

The Fairfax County, Va., home of John Culbertson – once a member of former U.S. Rep. James Traficant's scandal-plagued congressional office – was raided Friday afternoon by Oklahoma City police detectives searching for evidence related to the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.

A copy of the search warrant obtained by the McCurtain Daily Gazette described the evidence sought by detectives as including any and all computer equipment, letters, correspondence, electronic mail and image files.

The raid follows a Jan. 27 closed-door meeting attended by prosecutors and defense attorneys involved with the Terry Nichols murder trial, set to begin one month from now in Oklahoma.

During the meeting, it was brought to the attention of prosecutors Culbertson could have critical evidence concerning the bombing – evidence that had not come to the attention of state or federal prosecutors.

According to the affidavit filed with the search warrant, Nichols' defense attorneys filed a motion under seal with the court and further advised prosecutors Culbertson ''may have possession of a video and/or still photographs of a Ryder truck parked in front of the Alfred P. Murrah building before the explosion and during the explosion.''

The affidavit also indicates Nichols' defense attorneys said they attempted to contact Culbertson and he was not cooperative in showing them the possible evidence.

The motion presented by defense attorneys also stated Dallas, Texas, attorney Thomas W. Mills Jr. observed and described a video and still photos that Culbertson showed him.

Oklahoma City police detective Mark R. Easley interviewed Mills at his law office after District Judge Steven Taylor recommended an investigation into the matter.

Mills said he had gone to Washington, D.C., years ago to meet with Culbertson and actually viewed the video on Aug. 26, 1998.

Mills specifically told police detectives he saw a portion of a video and possibly three still pictures that were stored on Culbertson’s laptop computer.

In an affidavit obtained by this newspaper, Detective Easley said Mills told him the images he was shown included the Murrah building in ''pristine condition.''

Mills then said, ''Mr. Culbertson pushed a button and a second photograph came up with a small glow at the bottom of the building. Mr. Culbertson pushed another button and another frame appeared of a ball of fire rising from the building and the building fell.

''Mr. Mills asked where the video and pictures came from (and) Mr. Culbertson said it came from an ATF agent.''

In the motion filed by Nichols’ defense earlier, attorney Mark Earnest explained he interviewed both Mills and Culbertson about the potential evidence. He said Culbertson told him his request for a copy of the video and photographs ''placed Culbertson in a tight spot.''

When contacted by telephone late last week, Culbertson told an Oklahoma City police detective he had turned over a copy of the evidence to the House Judiciary Committee several years ago. Asked if he still had a copy of the material, Culbertson was described as evasive – refusing to divulge that information.

Appearing July 27, 2000, before the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives, the record shows Culbertson alluded to the subject of the possible existence of a videotape of the bomb blast in Oklahoma City.

Speaking as the director of the Center for Reform in Washington, D.C., Culbertson told members of the committee: ''With respect to the statements made by the Department of Justice that there are no photos or videos of the explosions of the Murrah Building, we have discovered that some indeed exist and are known to members of the law enforcement community.

''We have a short video presentation with a federal police officer describing a surveillance tape he personally witnessed at a gathering of law enforcement officers and comparing it to similar photos we have obtained in the Oklahoma City investigation, which will be presented after this opening statement, with your consent, Mr. Chairman. It is about two minutes long.

''This is a video taken April 13 of this year. It is a federal police officer describing a surveillance tape from Oklahoma City he personally witnessed and comparing it to other photos we have uncovered.''

During his appearance before the House Committee, Culbertson filed an affidavit containing statements he says were made by a federal agent who, Culbertson claimed, told him he was present at a training seminar after the bombing when the videotape was alleged to have been shown to several federal agents.

The statement included in the official record of the hearing is as follows:

''The federal police officer described two distinct explosions the locations of which are consistent with evidence uncovered in the course of investigating the attack on the Murrah Federal Building. The federal police officer also stated that the photos and video frames recovered as described above are consistent with the surveillance video that he witnessed in the training seminar. The officer’s statement as well as photos obtained in the investigation is contained in this document.''

Culbertson went on to testify: ''The Department of Justice has deprived the public of this important information as well as the courts in various jurisdictions charged with trying cases related to the bombing. This act is nothing short of callous and malicious obstruction of justice in what many might consider one of the most important cases of the 20th century.''

However, under direct examination by a member of the committee, Culbertson admitted he did not have possession of the film.

The transcript of the hearing contains this exchange between Culbertson and Rep. Jerrold Nadler of New York:

NADLER: Have you seen it?

CULBERTSON: I actually conducted the interview in Mr. Traficant’s office.

NADLER: Have you seen the tape, I asked.

CULBERTSON: The surveillance tape?

NADLER: No. You have not seen the surveillance tape. Do you have it with you today?

CULBERTSON: The videotape?

NADLER: No, the surveillance tape.

CULBERTSON: No.

NADLER: So this is a tape of an officer talking about a different tape that we cannot see?

CULBERTSON: We are attempting to get this tape. This is a tape of a police officer describing what he saw and comparing it to photographs and videotape frames that we have in our possession. There are more than one series of surveillance.

On July 30, 2002, a federal judge sentenced Culbertson's boss, James Traficant, to eight years in prison and fined him $150,000 after a jury found the Ohio Democrat guilty on 10 counts of bribery, racketeering and tax evasion.

The guilty verdict led the House to strip Traficant of his seat, making him only the second member of Congress kicked out since the Civil War. Culbertson remained on the former congressman's office staff for a short time until elections could be held to fill the vacancy.

An inventory of the items removed from the Culbertson residence has not been made public.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...homa+City+bombing."+&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

 

[DavidJames]

Ah, so you want to shift the argument. Ok. I don't know why the BATF were the only govt. agency to get warnings to stay away from the building that morning. No idea.

you have yet to provide evidence for this claim.

 

[juryjone]

I've changed my mind, by the way. You are not arguing in good faith and you are a terrorist supporter.

Claiming that buildings were blown from the insides by comparing them to buildings of different designs and hit with smaller explosives is not anything resembling a 'fact'. It is candy-a@@ speculation of the lowest, most depraved sort.

cb, you like to post the same quotes ad nauseam. I'd like to do the same with these brilliant comments. I'll bet it has the same effect on you that your repeated quotes by uninformed sources immediately after the bombing have on us - none.

 

[conspiracybeliever]

you have yet to provide evidence for this claim.

Actually, it's in the very first post and I posted it again above. The audio from the local news reports can be heard here:

http://www.philipdru.com/okc_stream.html

 

[Huntster]

Ah, so you want to shift the argument. Ok. I don't know why the BATF were the only govt. agency to get warnings to stay away from the building that morning. No idea.....

Again, here's one:

The BATF and FBI were the only agencies there who had informants who had infiltrated the network of those who set off the bomb.

The "warnings" were provided by these informants, whose backgrounds may have been less than savory or convincing (especially to someone who might be as skeptical as many on this board, or to an agent who might be reluctant to shut down operations in a large federal building in the largest city of the state, only to have nothing happen).

This is the scenario painted by James Pate and Rick Sherrow. I'd provide a link, but SOF archives are available only at a fairly steep per-article price.

 

[BryanLower]

As a resident of Oklahoma, I find these conspiracy theories about the bombing particularly offensive. This isn't some movie. Real people were affected by this. Conspiracy theories are exploiting the pain of a lot of families.

I don't see anybody changing their view on this. CB doesn't understand the logical fallacies of his claims and the weaknesses of his "evidence", or else he doesn't care. You're playing different sports on the same pitch. Until everybody agrees on the level of proof required for a claim to be considered credible, there will be no agreement. CB's standards for proof are much lower than everybody else's.

All the same, I'm happy that some of you are examining the CT claims, because you are providing some good information that could be useful in a real debate.

 

[CptColumbo]

So they were looking for a tape of another guy decribing what he saw on a tape.

Could the still photos have been altered in any way? Could the photos have been taken the day the rest of the building was demolished (from the side opposite the blast)? Pictures say a thousand words, unless they are taken out of context.

 

[kookbreaker]

I don't see anybody changing their view on this.

I don't either. My plan is not to try and change his mind, but to show anyone who might be 'on the fence' with this issue just how foolish and seperated from reality these claims can be. Roxdog is emotionally, and perhaps financially attached to these conspiracies, so for him they must be true. He will evade hard questions, and dance around major sticking points (like, you know, McVeigh admitting he did it) to keep the ideas alive.

 

[DavidJames]

Actually, it's in the very first post and I posted it again above. The audio from the local news reports can be heard here:

http://www.philipdru.com/okc_stream.html

Can you point me to approximately where in this audio the claim is made?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Ah, so you want to shift the argument. Ok. I don't know why the BATF were the only govt. agency to get warnings to stay away from the building that morning. No idea.



http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...homa+City+bombing."+&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

You asked "I clicked this link and saw this list. Not sure what you're getting at." and I answered with what I believe to have been the post's intent. If you want to use that as another excuse to not have to answer direct questions or deal with presented evidence, be my guest.

 

[J. Arthur Hastur]

conspiracybeliever also fudged the bomb sizes. The University of Wisconsin bomb was 2,000LB ANFO bomb, the Murrah building bomb was, according to FEMA 4,000-5,000LBS ANFO bomb, which had the destructive capacity of 20,000LBS of TNT according to globalsecurity.org.

I have pointed this out to him several times, he has yet to respond.

I'm still waiting to find out why conspiracybelievers info from the very first post in this thread is patently wrong.

The additional conspiracy theories only hold weight if we accept the erroneous information from CB's original post. The whole conspiracy is based around his asertion that the Murrah building bomb was not powerful enough to damage the Murrah building and that the ATF and FBI conspired to blow up the building from the inside.

However the bomb planted by McVeigh exploded with the force of 20,000LBS of TNT, more than enough to cause signifigant structural damage to the building, much like we see in the pictures.

If CB can't explain why his orginal facts are correct, then the follow up facts don't amount to proof of anything.

 

[conspiracybeliever]

I've addressed that. The govt. kept claiming it was bigger and bigger. Funny, if it was as big as they claim were was the bomb crater?

 

[conspiracybeliever]

You asked "I clicked this link and saw this list. Not sure what you're getting at." and I answered with what I believe to have been the post's intent. If you want to use that as another excuse to not have to answer direct questions or deal with presented evidence, be my guest.

My assertion was in regards to the BATF and nothing else.

 

[rwguinn]

I've addressed that. The govt. kept claiming it was bigger and bigger. Funny, if it was as big as they claim were was the bomb crater?

Half a building isn't a big enough crater? Finding the axle of the truck several blocks away isn't an indicator of the size of the bang? If you keep moving those goalposts, we'll end up in Mexico or Canada...soon

 

[J. Arthur Hastur]

I fudged nothing. You rely simply on what the govt. tells you to determine the size of the OKC ANFO bomb. Doesn't make it so. And even IF it was the size they claim, the blast damage is still inconsistant.

Also, the OK High Patrol Logs correlate with everyone else who reported bombs.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1998/vo14no15/vo14no15_bombs.htm




Interesting article:

http://www.newswithviews.com/Briley/Patrick15.htm

Also, is anyone gonna post the name of the BATF agents that died in the bombing?

Uhm, globalsecurity.org is not a governmental agency, it a news site that focues on events having to do with global secirity and military technology, it is much more credible than the white supremacist sites you post.

IF they say 5,000LBS of ANFO explodes with the force of 20,000LBS of TNT, I believe it, because they research it. They have a whole section devoted to explosives and ordinance.

 

[DavidJames]

Actually, it's in the very first post and I posted it again above. The audio from the local news reports can be heard here:

http://www.philipdru.com/okc_stream.html

So the evidence is 2nd hand hearsay. Sorry, you will need to do better. One claims that agents received messages on their pagers. Such messages are stored on servers and can be retrieved, but shockingly, no genuine evidence has actually been found. You can continue making this claim, but so far, you have not provided any evidence other then man in the street comments.

 

[senorpogo]

I've addressed that. The govt. kept claiming it was bigger and bigger. Funny, if it was as big as they claim were was the bomb crater?

Translation - You've handed it to me on all the other arguments I've made, so once again I'll find some seeming inconsistency to harp on.

 

[J. Arthur Hastur]

I've addressed that. The govt. kept claiming it was bigger and bigger. Funny, if it was as big as they claim were was the bomb crater?

If you would read up on explosives, many above ground detonations do not leave craters. It all depends on how the explosive energy is directed. A Ryder truck, for instance, has the floor of the loading area as it's strongest pint, the weakest is the opaque fiberglass ceiling which is thin enough to allow light in. The deck of the Ryder truck ( and most hauling trucks) is steel with an overlay of wood, the energy of the blast from the ANFO bomb would have been dfirected up and out the sides mostly, destroying the bed, damaging the ground, but the main blast energy would have been directed out the weakest parts of the truck, not down to form a crater.

The FBI initially reported that McVeigh's bomb was 7,000-8,000LBS

FEMA, several months after the full investigation had ended put the ofical weight at 4,000-5,000LBS , Timothy Mc Veigh procured enough materials to make an estimated 5,000LB bomb, so it is highly unlikely that it would have been bigger tan that.

The government's size estimations, in fact, went down. In fact, fact. Fact. A word that you seem to have trouble with.

 

[Gravy]

Me quoting witnesses is pathetic? I think it's even more pathetic that you knew virtually nothing about any of this until I posted it. It's easy to say "oh, yeah, those accounts from all those different sources on the scene were....uh...mistaken...no extra bombs. Two rednecks with an inadequate explosive device did all that damage."

People died while rescue teams were held back and told they were dismantling other bombs. The tapes that allegedly caught the blast on video were confiscated and never seen again. The audio of the blast was recorded from a board meeting across the street:
http://www.philipdru.com/okc_stream.html

Notice how he can't name a single person who agrees with him who actually did the work in the building: fire, police, search & rescue, medics, 4 different bomb squads. That's because there ARE none who agree with him. He either hasn't read my post with the quotes from the people on the scene, or he doesn't understand it.

This is EXACTLY what he does with the reports from the WTC.

It's a special kind of person who can be shown to be wrong again and again and again, and still claim that he's right. And he mentions that I knew virtually nothing about this until he mentioned it. He's correct, just as I didn't know that there were people out there who are so stupid that they think planes didn't hit the WTC towers, until a link at JREF pointed me to Loose Change a couple of weeks ago.